Obesity, is it really an illness or a lifestyle choice?
Discussion
kambites said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
You're having bread for lunch, which is also a junk food with no nutritional benefit
Brown bread does not have "no nutritional benefit". It's certainly no super-food, but it does contain a fair bit of fibre which you need to get from somewhere. 
Either way, or contains gluten, which causes zonulin levels to rise in our gut which causes intestinal permeability, even if you aren't coeliac or "gluten sensitive", it's a very unhealthy thing to have
anyone who thinks wholemeal bread is "healthy" because it has fibre is deluded in my opinion. I'm not sure I could survive without bread to be honest, in addition to the wholemeal rolls I have for lunch I often have a half baguette with lurpack with my dinner.
That dinner is normally pasta based (probably 5 days out of 7) which according to a post above isn't a good thing either lol. Basically it seems to be some kind of miracle that I'm still alive and basically healthy lol
That dinner is normally pasta based (probably 5 days out of 7) which according to a post above isn't a good thing either lol. Basically it seems to be some kind of miracle that I'm still alive and basically healthy lol
otolith said:
That would be an ecumenical matter.
I'm sure you know perfectly well that your position contradicts mainstream medical opinion and that those holding that opinion would argue that it is evidence based.
e.g.
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/caus...
https://www.bhf.org.uk/what-we-do/news-from-the-bh...
Not saying that you are wrong, rather that you must know that many disagree with you on what they would consider good grounds.
Mainstream medicine also says rapeseed oil is healthy I'm sure you know perfectly well that your position contradicts mainstream medical opinion and that those holding that opinion would argue that it is evidence based.
e.g.
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/caus...
https://www.bhf.org.uk/what-we-do/news-from-the-bh...
Not saying that you are wrong, rather that you must know that many disagree with you on what they would consider good grounds.
mainstream medicine also thinks overall cholesterol is a good indicator of cardiovascular disease risk. Mainstream medicine is very much a symptom suppressor, and not a root cause solver. Modern medicine thinks fat is the enemy and thinks carbs are healthy. Mainstream medicine is also funded by pharmaceutical companies.
Thankyou4calling said:
I’m the opposite in that people generally underestimate my weight and usually by a very significant amount.
I think it’s because I’m big “All over” so to speak.
Tall, naturally wide waist and back. It allows me to carry a lot of KGs as they’re evenly distributed over quite a big frame.
Quite a lot of people would guess the “Big Guy at the bar” outweighs me but they rarely do.
My boss at work is the same, he's tall 6'4" and although he carries a few extra pounds over what he probably should, he's not obese by a long stretch. But we worked it out the other day, he's an 1/8 of a ton in weight I think it’s because I’m big “All over” so to speak.
Tall, naturally wide waist and back. It allows me to carry a lot of KGs as they’re evenly distributed over quite a big frame.
Quite a lot of people would guess the “Big Guy at the bar” outweighs me but they rarely do.
otolith said:
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/caus...
https://www.bhf.org.uk/what-we-do/news-from-the-bh...
The best way to interpret that is:https://www.bhf.org.uk/what-we-do/news-from-the-bh...
"People that care about their health and include whole grains in their diet as part of that 'because healthy' alongside exercising, avoiding fast food/cake/biscuits, etc have a slightly reduced chance of bowel cancer versus those that don't."
The actual role of fibre in the above remains unknown.
You won't find a proper long term controlled trial for fibre v no fibre in relation to bowel cancer risk, all other variables controlled for. It would not only be outrageously expensive, but completely unethical.
slopes said:
Thankyou4calling said:
I’m the opposite in that people generally underestimate my weight and usually by a very significant amount.
I think it’s because I’m big “All over” so to speak.
Tall, naturally wide waist and back. It allows me to carry a lot of KGs as they’re evenly distributed over quite a big frame.
Quite a lot of people would guess the “Big Guy at the bar” outweighs me but they rarely do.
My boss at work is the same, he's tall 6'4" and although he carries a few extra pounds over what he probably should, he's not obese by a long stretch. But we worked it out the other day, he's an 1/8 of a ton in weight I think it’s because I’m big “All over” so to speak.
Tall, naturally wide waist and back. It allows me to carry a lot of KGs as they’re evenly distributed over quite a big frame.
Quite a lot of people would guess the “Big Guy at the bar” outweighs me but they rarely do.
I think the problem is that as a society we've forgotten what healthy is. Obese is becoming normal, normal doesn't mean healthy unfortunately.
kambites said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Our ancestors from thousands of years ago didn't have as much fibre as we're told to eat today, I'm sure.
They also lived to an average age of about 35. 
kambites said:
They also lived to an average age of about 35.
From a previous thread:jagnet said:
That's not reflected by studies on contemporary hunter gatherer societies, accultured or otherwise. For sure, childhood death in accultured societies is lower thanks to increased access to immunisation and medicine. Once past the age of 15 then even in untouched societies life expectancy into their 70s can be expected.
The bulk of deaths in hunter gatherer societies are respiratory and gastrointestinal. Heart attacks and degenerative diseases that we think of as being ones related to old age are very rare.
It's well worth reading:
Gurven, M., & Kaplan, H. (2007). Longevity among Hunter-Gatherers: A Cross-Cultural Examination Population and Development Review, 33(2), 321–365.
The bulk of deaths in hunter gatherer societies are respiratory and gastrointestinal. Heart attacks and degenerative diseases that we think of as being ones related to old age are very rare.
It's well worth reading:
Gurven, M., & Kaplan, H. (2007). Longevity among Hunter-Gatherers: A Cross-Cultural Examination Population and Development Review, 33(2), 321–365.
Gurven and Kaplan said:
A fundamental conclusion we draw from this analysis is that extensive longevity appears to be a novel feature of Homo sapiens. Our results contradict Vallois’s (1961: 222) claim that among early humans, “few individuals passed forty years, and it is only quite exceptionally that any passed fifty,” and the more traditional Hobbesian view of a nasty, brutish, and short human life (see also King and Jukes 1969; Weiss 1981). The data show that modal adult life span is 68–78 years, and that it was not uncommon for individuals to reach these ages, suggesting that inferences based on paleodemographic reconstruction are unreliable. One recent study that avoids several common problems of skeletal aging used dental-wear seriation and relative macro-age categories (ratio of old to young) to demonstrate an increase in the relative presence of older adults from australopithecines to early Homo and, more strikingly, among Upper Paleolithic humans (Caspari and Lee 2004; but see Hawkes and O’Connell 2005). More compellingly, a recent re-estimation of several common paleo-mortality curves based on hazard analysis and maximum likelihood methods shows a life course pattern similar to that of our ethnographic sample (Konigsberg and Herrmann 2006).
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
kambites said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Our ancestors from thousands of years ago didn't have as much fibre as we're told to eat today, I'm sure.
They also lived to an average age of about 35. There's no denying that whilst modern medicine is a wonderful thing, we've royally screwed up our health in a great many other ways!
Edited by kambites on Friday 24th June 15:26
K50 DEL said:
I'm not sure I could survive without bread to be honest, in addition to the wholemeal rolls I have for lunch I often have a half baguette with lurpack with my dinner.
That dinner is normally pasta based (probably 5 days out of 7) which according to a post above isn't a good thing either lol. Basically it seems to be some kind of miracle that I'm still alive and basically healthy lol
That dinner is normally pasta based (probably 5 days out of 7) which according to a post above isn't a good thing either lol. Basically it seems to be some kind of miracle that I'm still alive and basically healthy lol
Don't believe their lies.
jagnet said:
You won't find a proper long term controlled trial for fibre v no fibre in relation to bowel cancer risk, all other variables controlled for. It would not only be outrageously expensive, but completely unethical.
You won't find one for smoking, drinking, or snorting asbestos either. They all end up looking at epidemiological data.otolith said:
Out of interest, if one has written off the entire corpus of scientific medical knowledge as tainted, where does one go healthcare? YouTube? A homeopath?
I'm not sure, but if I ever find someone who has written off the entire corpus of medical knowledge I'll be sure to let you know.Modern medicine is amazing for acute infection, trauma etc. Its model for chronic disease is absolutely f
king awful.High blood pressure? Take a pill. Why not find out WHY it's high and sort it that way?
Diabetes? Take metformin. Why not reduce sugar and carb intake, consider intermittent fasting and leading a more healthy lifestyle?
High risk of cardiovascular disease? Take a statin. Why not address underlying inflammation, sort your diet out, exercise, reduce stress through natural methods etc.
If anyone thinks the modern medical protocols for chronic diseases is good I'd be keen to argue that very much.
Jim the Sunderer said:
K50 DEL said:
I'm not sure I could survive without bread to be honest, in addition to the wholemeal rolls I have for lunch I often have a half baguette with lurpack with my dinner.
That dinner is normally pasta based (probably 5 days out of 7) which according to a post above isn't a good thing either lol. Basically it seems to be some kind of miracle that I'm still alive and basically healthy lol
That dinner is normally pasta based (probably 5 days out of 7) which according to a post above isn't a good thing either lol. Basically it seems to be some kind of miracle that I'm still alive and basically healthy lol
Don't believe their lies.
king joke. Eat less oils etc..... Yes, if they're industrial seed oils.There are people who eat a very high fat and high protein diet with low carbs, very little while grains etc (eg Mediterranean diet) who have the lowest incidence of cardiovascular disease. Go figure.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
High blood pressure? Take a pill. Why not find out WHY it's high and sort it that way?
Diabetes? Take metformin. Why not reduce sugar and carb intake, consider intermittent fasting and leading a more healthy lifestyle?
High risk of cardiovascular disease? Take a statin. Why not address underlying inflammation, sort your diet out, exercise, reduce stress through natural methods etc.
If anyone thinks the modern medical protocols for chronic diseases is good I'd be keen to argue that very much.
Imagine two GPs. Diabetes? Take metformin. Why not reduce sugar and carb intake, consider intermittent fasting and leading a more healthy lifestyle?
High risk of cardiovascular disease? Take a statin. Why not address underlying inflammation, sort your diet out, exercise, reduce stress through natural methods etc.
If anyone thinks the modern medical protocols for chronic diseases is good I'd be keen to argue that very much.
One of them gives out the drugs for high blood pressure and diabetes and cardiovascular risk, along with the lifestyle advice that everybody already knows they should be following.
The other just gives the advice. Maybe even gives some advice they've picked up from "doing their own research" on YouTube.
Who is going to have the fewer dead or severely disabled patients five years later?
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