Obesity, is it really an illness or a lifestyle choice?

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

otolith said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

High blood pressure? Take a pill. Why not find out WHY it's high and sort it that way?

Diabetes? Take metformin. Why not reduce sugar and carb intake, consider intermittent fasting and leading a more healthy lifestyle?

High risk of cardiovascular disease? Take a statin. Why not address underlying inflammation, sort your diet out, exercise, reduce stress through natural methods etc.

If anyone thinks the modern medical protocols for chronic diseases is good I'd be keen to argue that very much.

Imagine two GPs.

One of them gives out the drugs for high blood pressure and diabetes and cardiovascular risk, along with the lifestyle advice that everybody already knows they should be following.

The other just gives the advice. Maybe even gives some advice they've picked up from "doing their own research" on YouTube.

Who is going to have the fewer dead or severely disabled patients five years later?

I thought we were talking about ways to help your health? That involves taking control of your own health. Imagine if patients genuinely cared about their health and listened to the advice, they'd be less need for GPs and we wouldn't have a chronic shortage.

It doesn't help GPs get paid commission for prescriptions.

[otolith]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

It doesn't help GPs get paid commission for prescriptions.

I'll ask my other half how that works later. I think they're paid for prescribing statins to asymptomatic people who fall into groups NICE have established will benefit from it, in the same way they are paid for delivering vaccinations, but I wouldn't call that "commission" so much as "being paid for improving public health outcomes".

[jagnet]

otolith said:

You won't find one for smoking, drinking, or snorting asbestos either. They all end up looking at epidemiological data.

Epidemiological data for smoking and mortality showed very strong association, iirc >30 fold.

Much of the data in nutritional science is incredibly weak; well below the 2 fold increase in risk that might be considered the minimum needed to show association.

"Red meat causes cancer" is around 1.2 at best in studies based on dietary questionnaires in Western countries. In studies in Asian populations it reverses and shows slightly lower risk. Healthy person confounder at work because I don't believe there's any great physiological difference between those populations that could explain why it causes cancer in one and protects in the other.

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

otolith said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

It doesn't help GPs get paid commission for prescriptions.

I'll ask my other half how that works later. I think they're paid for prescribing statins to asymptomatic people who fall into groups NICE have established will benefit from it, in the same way they are paid for delivering vaccinations, but I wouldn't call that "commission" so much as "being paid for improving public health outcomes".

If they prescribe a statin, they get more money. That, in my opinion, is commission.

Increasing public health is a joke. The evidence for statins is INCREDIBLY weak. Especially if you look at all cause mortality. Then look at all of the side effects they cause. It makes countless people tired, miserable and achy. To what? Reduce their individual risk of CVD by about 0.3%, whilst not improving their risk of overall mortality? Sounds great to me. Have a look at "number needed to treat". For asymptomatic people for a statin it's around 330 people need to take statins every day for 5 years to reduce the risk of one fatal CVD event, that's MILLIONS of tablets to prevent one CVD, and then if you didn't die of a CVD....you died of something else anyway.

Have a read of "a stain-free life". It's on Amazon and written by a consultant cardiac surgeon. It's rather interesting

Edit:
https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Statin-Free-Life-revolu...

Edited by TyrannosauRoss Lex on Friday 24th June 16:57

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

kambites said:

otolith said:

Out of interest, if one has written off the entire corpus of scientific medical knowledge as tainted, where does one go healthcare? YouTube? A homeopath?

Find an anti-vaxer, I'm sure they'll have some good places to start.

I'm anti-covid vaccine IF you're under 40 or so and are metabolically healthy. Trouble is, a lot don't know what that is, and think they are when they aren't. If you're old, obese, have diabetes or whatever? Absolutely get the f*cking vaccine. I caught covid, was a bit rough for 1 day and that was it. Went for a run on my 4th day

[BabySharkDooDooDooDooDooDoo]

kambites said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

Our ancestors from thousands of years ago didn't have as much fibre as we're told to eat today, I'm sure.

They also lived to an average age of about 35.

Yet interestingly, Leonidas died at the age of ~60 when he fought at Thermopylae. Can’t imagine my dad in battle at that age

Shows the benefit of keeping fit, slaughtering your enemies, and a good a Mediterranean diet

Bit on the misconception of people dying young in ancient times here

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20181002-how-lo...

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

One thing I will say, if you truly want to eat healthily,and I mean really clean, it can be sodding expensive unless you grow your own fruit and veg (I don't). I buy ALL of my meat from an online butcher (Gazegill Organics) where it's all pasture raised and finished/grass fed. I buy fish from wild sources, not farmed. Organic fruit and veg where possible. As you've all seen, I don't weigh very much, but I definitely spend over £100/week on food for just me.

Worth it though, I love my food

[Mr Whippy]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

One thing I will say, if you truly want to eat healthily,and I mean really clean, it can be sodding expensive unless you grow your own fruit and veg (I don't). I buy ALL of my meat from an online butcher (Gazegill Organics) where it's all pasture raised and finished/grass fed. I buy fish from wild sources, not farmed. Organic fruit and veg where possible. As you've all seen, I don't weigh very much, but I definitely spend over £100/week on food for just me.

Worth it though, I love my food

Grass-fed chicken?

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

Mr Whippy said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

One thing I will say, if you truly want to eat healthily,and I mean really clean, it can be sodding expensive unless you grow your own fruit and veg (I don't). I buy ALL of my meat from an online butcher (Gazegill Organics) where it's all pasture raised and finished/grass fed. I buy fish from wild sources, not farmed. Organic fruit and veg where possible. As you've all seen, I don't weigh very much, but I definitely spend over £100/week on food for just me.

Worth it though, I love my food

Grass-fed chicken?

I should have been more clear, I said I buy all of MY meat from there where it's all pasture raised and finished/grass fed. I don't tend toeat chicken for that reason, it isn't as nutritionally dense as grass fed beef. I have it occasionally, but maybe once or twice a month or so, and always from Gazegill. Of course their chickens aren't grass fed, but it is at least fed organic feed

[eldar]

kambites said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

Our ancestors from thousands of years ago didn't have as much fibre as we're told to eat today, I'm sure.

They also lived to an average age of about 35.

Because so many children died young. Plenty lived into 80s and 90s.

[MC Bodge]

We've gone down the quackery and fad diet rabbit hole!

To sum up:


Eat less st food, don't snack, drink less booze, drink plenty of water, be active throughout your life.

Like debt, preferably don't get into being fat at a young age.

[bongtom]

Mr Pointy said:

There's already plenty of threads promoting fat-shaming; do we really need another one? Go & post on one of the others.

Are you still a fatty?

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

MC Bodge said:

We've gone down the quackery and fad diet rabbit hole!

To sum up:


Eat less st food, don't snack, drink less booze, drink plenty of water, be active throughout your life.

Like debt, preferably don't get into being fat at a young age.

I'm not sure how what I've said is "fad diet" (if you're referring to me of course). It's wholefoods and meat with a preference for grass fed (i.e. healthy animals) and no processed garbage, as you say. Humans have been around for approx 300k years, if that was put into a 12 month calender, agriculture started 2 weeks or so ago, and we've been eating industrial foods like flour, refined sugar, seed and vegetable oils as of today In my humble opinion it's not a fad diet, it's a diet humans have generally lived well on, until the advent of industrialisation. One could argue even vegetables weren't needed to a large extent for much of our history either.

I agree 100% with what you say, the trouble comes when people think things like wholemeal bread, cereal grains, seed oils etc are healthy and not st food

[knk]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

I'm not sure, but if I ever find someone who has written off the entire corpus of medical knowledge I'll be sure to let you know.

Modern medicine is amazing for acute infection, trauma etc. Its model for chronic disease is absolutely fking awful.

High blood pressure? Take a pill. Why not find out WHY it's high and sort it that way?

Diabetes? Take metformin. Why not reduce sugar and carb intake, consider intermittent fasting and leading a more healthy lifestyle?

High risk of cardiovascular disease? Take a statin. Why not address underlying inflammation, sort your diet out, exercise, reduce stress through natural methods etc.

If anyone thinks the modern medical protocols for chronic diseases is good I'd be keen to argue that very much.

It's not a global big-pharma conspiracy!

When a patient is diagnosed with hypertension, Pre-diabetes, or at high risk of IHD the first step is always lifestyle advice and encouragement.

This is rarely taken and implemented, despite all our best efforts (albeit in a series of 10 minute appointments).
Then the patient demands medication, which is prescribed where is is appropriate and safe.

[Zumbruk]

knk said:

When a patient is diagnosed with hypertension, Pre-diabetes, or at high risk of IHD the first step is always lifestyle advice and encouragement.

The NHS Diabetes Prevention Programme is very good. But on the one I was on, more than half the people were missing after the first 3 or 4 weeks. I expect they wanted magic rather than being told "give up carbs & get more exercise".

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

knk said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

I'm not sure, but if I ever find someone who has written off the entire corpus of medical knowledge I'll be sure to let you know.

Modern medicine is amazing for acute infection, trauma etc. Its model for chronic disease is absolutely fking awful.

High blood pressure? Take a pill. Why not find out WHY it's high and sort it that way?

Diabetes? Take metformin. Why not reduce sugar and carb intake, consider intermittent fasting and leading a more healthy lifestyle?

High risk of cardiovascular disease? Take a statin. Why not address underlying inflammation, sort your diet out, exercise, reduce stress through natural methods etc.

If anyone thinks the modern medical protocols for chronic diseases is good I'd be keen to argue that very much.

It's not a global big-pharma conspiracy!

When a patient is diagnosed with hypertension, Pre-diabetes, or at high risk of IHD the first step is always lifestyle advice and encouragement.

This is rarely taken and implemented, despite all our best efforts (albeit in a series of 10 minute appointments).
Then the patient demands medication, which is prescribed where is is appropriate and safe.

I know many people who are told they need to go on statins and have had absolutely no advice on lifestyle changes from their GP. As an example just today I had someone receive a letter from their GP saying their cholesterol was high (5.4) and they needed to go on a statin. No mention of diet or anything. Upon looking, their cholesterol to HDL ratio was 2.5, their triglycerides were 0.8.....there was absolutely NO need for them to go on a statin, with ratios like that they are perfectly healthy, and indeed better than many with lower cholesterol.

[popeyewhite]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

I know many people who are told they need to go on statins and have had absolutely no advice on lifestyle changes from their GP. As an example just today I had someone receive a letter from their GP saying their cholesterol was high (5.4) and they needed to go on a statin. No mention of diet or anything. Upon looking, their cholesterol to HDL ratio was 2.5, their triglycerides were 0.8.....there was absolutely NO need for them to go on a statin, with ratios like that they are perfectly healthy, and indeed better than many with lower cholesterol.

I'm sure similar to the GP you considered other factors such as bp, family history etc.

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

popeyewhite said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

I know many people who are told they need to go on statins and have had absolutely no advice on lifestyle changes from their GP. As an example just today I had someone receive a letter from their GP saying their cholesterol was high (5.4) and they needed to go on a statin. No mention of diet or anything. Upon looking, their cholesterol to HDL ratio was 2.5, their triglycerides were 0.8.....there was absolutely NO need for them to go on a statin, with ratios like that they are perfectly healthy, and indeed better than many with lower cholesterol.

I'm sure similar to the GP you considered other factors such as bp, family history etc.

Why do you assume the GP considered BP, family history? They didn't even see the GP, they didn't have their BP taken, they had some blood testing which included cholesterol. They have a grandmother who died of a heart attack in their late 80s. So pretty normal stuff. I'm not sure why their family history RE cholesterol is of concern when their levels and ratios are perfectly. For reference, when I took their BP it was 126/83, so perfectly healthy.

We're going way off topic here though, but if you are interested in cholesterol, read the book I linked to a while ago

[Wildcat45]

Speaking as a chunky bloke. It is very much a lifestyle choice.

It’s not a mental health issue that got me buying a Chinese last night, having a few pints mid week, or munching the bag of crisps I ate earlier. It is greed. I like food and beer.

I do exercise and regularly - once a week or so - walk 6 or so miles at over 4MPH without breaking sweat. I’ll get around 2 miles a day under my belt on average.

I’m not trying to shift the weight, but I’m also not trying to add it. I’ve been the same weight for years. If I gain any it will be my fault, nobody else’s.

[popeyewhite]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

Why do you assume the GP considered BP, family history?

Isn't it standard practice? At my health centre if you discuss bloodwork it's done with a nurse...the GP wouldn't bother anyway.

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

We're going way off topic here though, but if you are interested in cholesterol...

I'm not particularly. Do you have any medical qualifications?