Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
I remember being taken to Kings College in Wimbledon by my parents in the early 70s in the hope I'd get a Scholarship.
Thankfully I didn't pass the interview (they had classes on Saturday mornings FFS) but I passed the 11+ and went to our local Grammar that suited me much better!
I left with 9 "O" levels and 2 "A" levels, although every year 5 or 6 pupils would get Oxbridge places so teaching standards were high but I knew I was never going to achieve that. .
Maybe sometimes parents should think more about what suits their children than their own aspirations.
Although I have read a few books written by Clarkson lately and he seems to think his private education made him something special - even if he did only get 6 "O" levels. Loser.
Then again he's a millionaire and I'm not so who knows?
Thankfully I didn't pass the interview (they had classes on Saturday mornings FFS) but I passed the 11+ and went to our local Grammar that suited me much better!
I left with 9 "O" levels and 2 "A" levels, although every year 5 or 6 pupils would get Oxbridge places so teaching standards were high but I knew I was never going to achieve that. .
Maybe sometimes parents should think more about what suits their children than their own aspirations.
Although I have read a few books written by Clarkson lately and he seems to think his private education made him something special - even if he did only get 6 "O" levels. Loser.
Then again he's a millionaire and I'm not so who knows?
simonrockman said:
It's mostly about class size. The school which saved both my boys had a policy of classes of seven. But it's also about choice. In another thread "my daughters teacher" there is a discussion about a teacher who is dangerously woke. If you pay, you can elect to move the child.
It's a good thought, but statistically it's very little to do with class size. The single biggest influencing factor in educational outcomes is expectations. Schools that set high standards for kids who in turn have parents who have equally high expectations are, whether state or private, by a country mile the most likely to produce the best outcomes.easytiger123 said:
It's a good thought, but statistically it's very little to do with class size. The single biggest influencing factor in educational outcomes is expectations. Schools that set high standards for kids who in turn have parents who have equally high expectations are, whether state or private, by a country mile the most likely to produce the best outcomes.
Yup these virtuous circles are really important, kids with good support structures being around other kids who are similar and have parents with good jobs. Kids see this and think that those jobs and futures are possible for them too rather than being limited by their parents and their jobs or outlook. Smaller class sizes help enormously though as does the private school’s ability to get rid of kids that cause trouble straight away.
Oddly enough I was only thinking about school again this morning when somehow an Englishman in his 40s I met this morning in Asia managed to get into the first 10mins of conversation that he went to public school 
What a loser.
Anyway, I went to an academically selective private school. It was amazing and definitely honed my natural feelings of superiority and higher sense of place in the world.
I wouldn't consider sending my kids to a state school unless I absolutely had to. My favourite subjects at school were Latin and Ancient Greek; I don't know if it's still unusual to come across them in the state sector.
I think times have changed but back in the 90s, my rugby team and I would often venture into the provincial towns on a Saturday night after a game with the express intention of having a good old punch up with the locals. I think your average child is just way more soft and coddled these days than back then. I'd suspect a few terms of rugby makes the average private school boy considerably tougher than a comprehensive kid that just shoots people on a video game.
What is interesting is that of my cohort, the most successful of financially are the ones with the wealthiest parents. There hasn't actually been a lot of financial or social mobility upwards at all. Something to bear in mind.
What a loser.
Anyway, I went to an academically selective private school. It was amazing and definitely honed my natural feelings of superiority and higher sense of place in the world.
I wouldn't consider sending my kids to a state school unless I absolutely had to. My favourite subjects at school were Latin and Ancient Greek; I don't know if it's still unusual to come across them in the state sector.
I think times have changed but back in the 90s, my rugby team and I would often venture into the provincial towns on a Saturday night after a game with the express intention of having a good old punch up with the locals. I think your average child is just way more soft and coddled these days than back then. I'd suspect a few terms of rugby makes the average private school boy considerably tougher than a comprehensive kid that just shoots people on a video game.
What is interesting is that of my cohort, the most successful of financially are the ones with the wealthiest parents. There hasn't actually been a lot of financial or social mobility upwards at all. Something to bear in mind.
I went to a decent private school. Think Rishi not Boris. I generally enjoyed it and although I was never the most academic of my peers it was what I learnt outside the class room that has set me up well for life. My kids are now at private school too because I can afford it and because it guarantees a good level of education, sport and the the extra curricular activity and relationships that help in life. We have great grammars nearby and I'm a fan of those too. The kids could have gone to one of the local grammars but as we had the cash for private that was our first choice.
Where I do think private schools need to innovate is in the transition away from the traditional work environment and preparing private school kids for the civil service and vocational 9 - 5 jobs. They need to adjust and promote more entrepreneurial futures to allow children to better compete with the rest of the world.
Where I do think private schools need to innovate is in the transition away from the traditional work environment and preparing private school kids for the civil service and vocational 9 - 5 jobs. They need to adjust and promote more entrepreneurial futures to allow children to better compete with the rest of the world.
Bobajobbob said:
Where I do think private schools need to innovate is in the transition away from the traditional work environment and preparing private school kids for the civil service and vocational 9 - 5 jobs. They need to adjust and promote more entrepreneurial futures to allow children to better compete with the rest of the world.
All the time that it requires one of a few types of job to afford to send a kid, that's what they'll be gearing towards as the end product I dare say.I agree on the latter point, though do notice a large proportion of the CEO's and founders in my space (technology) are often product of Oxbridge.
wyson said:
My friend similarly resigned after getting his commission at Sandhurst as he felt his opportunities were limited because he didn’t go to a public school and didn’t ‘get’ the culture.
As you probably know the military is an Establishment ‘pillar of power’. Britain, instead of having a written constitution, inculcates it in future leaders culturally in elite institutions like Eton ie. how should the powerful behave and what ethics should they follow?. If you don’t get the culture, you aren’t part of the club and you are seen to be unfit to lead.
I don't know when your friend was at Sandhurst - probably sometime in the 1870s judging by what you've written. Certainly by the time I was there 34 years ago, what you've written was bAs you probably know the military is an Establishment ‘pillar of power’. Britain, instead of having a written constitution, inculcates it in future leaders culturally in elite institutions like Eton ie. how should the powerful behave and what ethics should they follow?. If you don’t get the culture, you aren’t part of the club and you are seen to be unfit to lead.
Edited by wyson on Monday 8th November 20:44
ksthewarlock said:
I didn't go to private school. I was always pretty smart, worked hard, passed my exams, off to Uni, passed that, got a job, etc.
My wife, she went to private school. Left school, went to Uni, dropped out because it wasn't for her, tried several different things before she found her 'place'.
My take on it though, is what whilst she may claim that private school didn't do her terribly much good, evidenced by the above, she is of a mindset that allows her to achieve things. It's partly inherited/taught by her Father, who was very successful (and very stubborn, she acquired that too) at what he set out to do in business and life, but IMO it's certainly the case that at least part of it was developed at school.
They're given opportuinities that a lot of us are not, that's true, but they're also taught things in a fashion that the rest of us could be, but are not. There was a lot more focus on non-technical subjects and aspects of life at her school than there seemed to be at my school.
She's now a Director at work, 8 months and 2 promotions after joining as an HR business partner. I've just wrapped up my own company (can't even call myself a Director any more!) and work for 'the man'.
But then, maybe this is all just because I went to a terrible school where drugs, fights, knifes and so on were the norm, and it's just skewed my perspective.
Similar story in my family.My wife, she went to private school. Left school, went to Uni, dropped out because it wasn't for her, tried several different things before she found her 'place'.
My take on it though, is what whilst she may claim that private school didn't do her terribly much good, evidenced by the above, she is of a mindset that allows her to achieve things. It's partly inherited/taught by her Father, who was very successful (and very stubborn, she acquired that too) at what he set out to do in business and life, but IMO it's certainly the case that at least part of it was developed at school.
They're given opportuinities that a lot of us are not, that's true, but they're also taught things in a fashion that the rest of us could be, but are not. There was a lot more focus on non-technical subjects and aspects of life at her school than there seemed to be at my school.
She's now a Director at work, 8 months and 2 promotions after joining as an HR business partner. I've just wrapped up my own company (can't even call myself a Director any more!) and work for 'the man'.
But then, maybe this is all just because I went to a terrible school where drugs, fights, knifes and so on were the norm, and it's just skewed my perspective.
I went to public school thanks to scholarship, my brighter younger brother missed out (exam nerves plus removal of assisted place scheme (which mum needed on top of partial scholarship).
I've always "breezed" a bit through life, dropped out of photography degree after a year, couldn't really be arsed figuring out what I wanted to do so just drifted.
Now, Corp Director with chunky budget and staff responsibilities. Amazes me that allegedly capable and professional people I respect consider me worthy of such a post, but one day they'll figure me out I'm sure.
Little Bro? Bar manager. Has a dream that's been there since childhood - all he has ever been able to see are the barriers, not the opportunities.
Is that all down to choice of school? Of course not - but I'd suggest it's a bloody big factor in our relative outcomes...
it's a funny one, and multi-faceted. the whole nature/nurture thing.
my parents were comfortably off and sent me and my sister to private schools.
i did ok academically, but was capable of more.
however my main take away from private school is a rock solid confidence in myself. call it an inner arrogance if you will, but i knew i was going to be ok and took amazingly big risks as a young man that paid off handsomely.
i was imbued with an ability to talk confidently with anyone in society and was never talked down to by adults.
did this self assurance come from my schooling? partly... i was in the debating society and was an officer in the CCF (air cadets) so responsibility and linguistic acuity were built into me. young enterprise and DofE were also formative.
My behaviour was appalling, but again it was an opportunity to hone a skill - how far should i push my luck!!!
however, i always had an unhealthy interest in business and decision making borne from a genuine interest in 'round the dinner table' conversations between my parents about their own choices in life and those of their moderately successful friends. i observed all the choices and outcomes play out over many years and feel that this helped with my own judgment in later life. The fact that i took a subscription to the FT from age 10 was just weird, lol....
My feeling on private school is that it doesn't by definition guarantee a better result, especially if the pupil has a natural ability to manage their own time well and is not lazy. it will, however get a better result out of an average, feckless student than state school. allied to a supportive home environment will almost certainly lead to better average outcomes than the state system.
my parents were comfortably off and sent me and my sister to private schools.
i did ok academically, but was capable of more.
however my main take away from private school is a rock solid confidence in myself. call it an inner arrogance if you will, but i knew i was going to be ok and took amazingly big risks as a young man that paid off handsomely.
i was imbued with an ability to talk confidently with anyone in society and was never talked down to by adults.
did this self assurance come from my schooling? partly... i was in the debating society and was an officer in the CCF (air cadets) so responsibility and linguistic acuity were built into me. young enterprise and DofE were also formative.
My behaviour was appalling, but again it was an opportunity to hone a skill - how far should i push my luck!!!
however, i always had an unhealthy interest in business and decision making borne from a genuine interest in 'round the dinner table' conversations between my parents about their own choices in life and those of their moderately successful friends. i observed all the choices and outcomes play out over many years and feel that this helped with my own judgment in later life. The fact that i took a subscription to the FT from age 10 was just weird, lol....
My feeling on private school is that it doesn't by definition guarantee a better result, especially if the pupil has a natural ability to manage their own time well and is not lazy. it will, however get a better result out of an average, feckless student than state school. allied to a supportive home environment will almost certainly lead to better average outcomes than the state system.
ClaphamGT3 said:
wyson said:
My friend similarly resigned after getting his commission at Sandhurst as he felt his opportunities were limited because he didn’t go to a public school and didn’t ‘get’ the culture.
As you probably know the military is an Establishment ‘pillar of power’. Britain, instead of having a written constitution, inculcates it in future leaders culturally in elite institutions like Eton ie. how should the powerful behave and what ethics should they follow?. If you don’t get the culture, you aren’t part of the club and you are seen to be unfit to lead.
I don't know when your friend was at Sandhurst - probably sometime in the 1870s judging by what you've written. Certainly by the time I was there 34 years ago, what you've written was bAs you probably know the military is an Establishment ‘pillar of power’. Britain, instead of having a written constitution, inculcates it in future leaders culturally in elite institutions like Eton ie. how should the powerful behave and what ethics should they follow?. If you don’t get the culture, you aren’t part of the club and you are seen to be unfit to lead.
Edited by wyson on Monday 8th November 20:44
ksConfidence and the ability to talk well do seem to be linked with private schools - though it may be that the parents most capable of sending their children to private schools will also be confident and speak well. I wouldn't care what background my staff come from but the ability to communicate well with others, particularly important clients, is a prerequisite.
AstonZagato said:
Confidence and the ability to talk well do seem to be linked with private schools - though it may be that the parents most capable of sending their children to private schools will also be confident and speak well. I wouldn't care what background my staff come from but the ability to communicate well with others, particularly important clients, is a prerequisite.
It'll be linked to location, also. All of the guys I went to school with have no regional accent, all well spoken, most of their parents the same too, though not all kids in the school fitted that mould, the majority did. That's what you get in well to do Hampshire/Surrey/Bucks/etc etc. I'm sure most of that will be very different elsewhere in the country, and VERY different where I live now.I agree with you entirely, though, most of the reason I can afford to have the choice is down to exactly that (because I have no qualifications to lean on), and an ability to interview well, which I suppose is an extension of the above.I have three kids at a fee paying school. For us there was one simple stat that sealed it. The local state school has a 30:1 student to teacher ratio in most classes. The fee paying school has a 12:1 ratio.
There are better facilities, more after school options and so on, but the amount of attention that each child gets from their teacher has to be the biggest advantage by far.
There are better facilities, more after school options and so on, but the amount of attention that each child gets from their teacher has to be the biggest advantage by far.
ClaphamGT3 said:
I don't know when your friend was at Sandhurst - probably sometime in the 1870s judging by what you've written. Certainly by the time I was there 34 years ago, what you've written was bks
Well look at the people in command. See what schools they went to. The evidence is clear to see. ksMark Carleton Smith. Eton alumni.
Nick Carter. Winchester College alumni.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_the_General...
Look at the schools these people went to.
I see you are one of those people, part of a system they understand nothing about. I can’t imagine you were a commissioned officer. NCO training people up, a follower perhaps.
It’s a shame my original post wasn’t deleted quickly enough. I just get no enjoyment arguing with the ignorant.
Will definitely stick to car related stuff on this forum, where I actually do see a different perspective to mainstream media and learn something.
Excuse me if I don’t reply.
Edited by wyson on Tuesday 9th November 14:53
Jonathan27 said:
I have three kids at a fee paying school. For us there was one simple stat that sealed it. The local state school has a 30:1 student to teacher ratio in most classes. The fee paying school has a 12:1 ratio.
There are better facilities, more after school options and so on, but the amount of attention that each child gets from their teacher has to be the biggest advantage by far.
Good point.There are better facilities, more after school options and so on, but the amount of attention that each child gets from their teacher has to be the biggest advantage by far.
wyson said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
I don't know when your friend was at Sandhurst - probably sometime in the 1870s judging by what you've written. Certainly by the time I was there 34 years ago, what you've written was bks
Well look at the people in command. See what schools they went to. The evidence is clear to see. ksMark Carleton Smith. Eton alumni.
Nick Carter. Winchester College alumni.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_the_General...
Look at the schools these people went to.
I see you are one of those people, part of a system they understand nothing about. I can’t imagine you were a commissioned officer. NCO training people up, a follower perhaps.
It’s a shame my original post wasn’t deleted quickly enough. I just get no enjoyment arguing with the ignorant.
Will definitely stick to car related stuff on this forum, where I actually do see a different perspective to mainstream media and learn something.
Excuse me if I don’t reply.
Edited by wyson on Tuesday 9th November 14:53
I was an officer for seven years, three as a regular, four in the TA. I would say that, even in the 80s and 90s, the majority of officers coming through were from state schools. The RCB was a great leveller
Edited by ClaphamGT3 on Tuesday 9th November 15:10
OP just send your kid to Dulwich Prep, you won't regret it.
My one has been there for a year and a bit and the amount he has learnt in that time is pretty incredible. Not just in terms of academics but more the behavioural side - table manners, respect towards others etc. We actually have some very good local state primary schools but the problem with South London is that while most people are "normal", there's also those who pick up their kids in pyjamas and slippers smoking away. The vast majority of the parents in my son's class are working professionals (yes, mostly bankers and lawyers) who want the best for their kids, you get a few white middle class people with a big inheritance but I'd rather associate with them than the people on the other end of the spectrum.
I have no idea how they pick the kids at the assessment when they're only 2-3 years old (nursery is the best time to get in as that's the biggest intake), but they've done a pretty good job as there's not really any trouble children. I'm fairly certain they also assess the parents when you go for a "school viewing".
My one has been there for a year and a bit and the amount he has learnt in that time is pretty incredible. Not just in terms of academics but more the behavioural side - table manners, respect towards others etc. We actually have some very good local state primary schools but the problem with South London is that while most people are "normal", there's also those who pick up their kids in pyjamas and slippers smoking away. The vast majority of the parents in my son's class are working professionals (yes, mostly bankers and lawyers) who want the best for their kids, you get a few white middle class people with a big inheritance but I'd rather associate with them than the people on the other end of the spectrum.
I have no idea how they pick the kids at the assessment when they're only 2-3 years old (nursery is the best time to get in as that's the biggest intake), but they've done a pretty good job as there's not really any trouble children. I'm fairly certain they also assess the parents when you go for a "school viewing".
It is on my list, the only issue being with that that it is 3 miles or so from mine, in the wrong direction. I note all of the Dulwich Schools have the foundation bus service which has a stop 1 minute from my house, though I have no idea what age is acceptable to put a kid on a school bus alone in London, pretty sure I was on a school bus from day 1 in primary school, but I'm sure it is different here.
Have heard from others that it is well regarded and the facilities look great.
Interesting you mention nursery, I think we would only consider reception, school based nursery hours are not good enough, both my wife and I work and our current nursery along with being great is 8-6 which is useful, I'm trying to put off school as long as possible given the laughable hours! That said, it seems there's FAR more places, as you said, quite an interesting observation. 150 spots in the nursery vs 30 places in the reception year! Though I suppose half are girls which then go elsewhere.
Have heard from others that it is well regarded and the facilities look great.
Interesting you mention nursery, I think we would only consider reception, school based nursery hours are not good enough, both my wife and I work and our current nursery along with being great is 8-6 which is useful, I'm trying to put off school as long as possible given the laughable hours! That said, it seems there's FAR more places, as you said, quite an interesting observation. 150 spots in the nursery vs 30 places in the reception year! Though I suppose half are girls which then go elsewhere.
Edited by okgo on Tuesday 9th November 17:34
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff