Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
ClaphamGT3 said:
I urge floating voters not to be taken in; here is a party that want your money and will trash your standard of living and financial security to get it.
Much as I disapprove of this policy, the current Tory administration needs to be shown the door and I’m afraid there’s no other way to do it. Aye, that’s where I’m at. I know I’m going to be screwed and targeted by the new Labour administration but, tbh, that’s exactly what’s been happening under the current Tory one anyway.
Throw in the most lamentable government i’ve yet to experience together with a profound dearth of leadership and competence, let alone inspiration, and thus, the medicine is clear.
I have no faith in a new Labour government but that’s secondary to the need to remove this particular rotting head.
Throw in the most lamentable government i’ve yet to experience together with a profound dearth of leadership and competence, let alone inspiration, and thus, the medicine is clear.
I have no faith in a new Labour government but that’s secondary to the need to remove this particular rotting head.
What is the point of having money and financial security if you live in a country that has a growing gap between the richest and the poorest and ever worsening social services, education, healthcare etc?
What is the point of being a rich country if only the rich benefit? I don't understand the mentality behind that. Make life better for everyone because we all live together in the same place.
What is the point of being a rich country if only the rich benefit? I don't understand the mentality behind that. Make life better for everyone because we all live together in the same place.
dimots said:
What is the point of having money and financial security if you live in a country that has a growing gap between the richest and the poorest and ever worsening social services, education, healthcare etc?
What is the point of being a rich country if only the rich benefit? I don't understand the mentality behind that. Make life better for everyone because we all live together in the same place.
What data are you basing the “rising gap” on?What is the point of being a rich country if only the rich benefit? I don't understand the mentality behind that. Make life better for everyone because we all live together in the same place.
Income GINI is relatively flat and wealth GINI is significantly lower than ostensibly more equal countries such as Sweden.
Here’s the income data.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/872472/gini-in...
Edited by Ken_Code on Monday 8th April 11:53
Ken_Code said:
What data are you basing the “rising gap” on?
Income GINI is relatively flat and wealth GINI is significantly lower than ostensibly more equal countries such as Sweden.
Here’s the income data.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/872472/gini-in...
You have linked to the Gini chart which at 35.7% should be compared to the average for Europe.Income GINI is relatively flat and wealth GINI is significantly lower than ostensibly more equal countries such as Sweden.
Here’s the income data.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/872472/gini-in...
Edited by Ken_Code on Monday 8th April 11:53
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1417444/inequa...
dimots said:
Ken_Code said:
What data are you basing the “rising gap” on?
Income GINI is relatively flat and wealth GINI is significantly lower than ostensibly more equal countries such as Sweden.
Here’s the income data.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/872472/gini-in...
You have linked to the Gini chart which at 35.7% should be compared to the average for Europe.Income GINI is relatively flat and wealth GINI is significantly lower than ostensibly more equal countries such as Sweden.
Here’s the income data.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/872472/gini-in...
Edited by Ken_Code on Monday 8th April 11:53
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1417444/inequa...
dimots said:
You have linked to the Gini chart which at 35.7% should be compared to the average for Europe.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1417444/inequa...
No, you mentioned a growing gap, so the data series for the UK is the relevant one.https://www.statista.com/statistics/1417444/inequa...
What are you basing your claim on that inequality in the UK is increasing when this data suggests that it’s fallen slightly over recent years?
And yet interestingly the share of national wealth taken by the top 1% is lowest in major economies in Europe. That same 1% rightly or wrongly pay 30% of all income tax.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1413112/wealth...
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1413112/wealth...
Hedgedhog said:
And yet interestingly the share of national wealth taken by the top 1% is lowest in major economies in Europe. That same 1% rightly or wrongly pay 30% of all income tax.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1413112/wealth...
And that’s with them earning 14% of wages, so they pay twice as much of their wage in income tax than the average worker.https://www.statista.com/statistics/1413112/wealth...
24 weeks work per year purely to pay the tax bill.
The lower three quintiles of households pay nothing (net) in taxes, the second top pays little and the top quintile pays nearly everything.
In recent years higher earners have lost their tax-free allowance, have seen NI contributions go uncapped, lost the ability to fund their pensions and seen the top rate of tax increase significantly.
The claim that the UK is in any way rewarding higher earners at the expense of others is a difficult one to justify.
Ken_Code said:
And that’s with them earning 14% of wages, so they pay twice as much of their wage in income tax than the average worker.
24 weeks work per year purely to pay the tax bill.
The lower three quintiles of households pay nothing (net) in taxes, the second top pays little and the top quintile pays nearly everything.
In recent years higher earners have lost their tax-free allowance, have seen NI contributions go uncapped, lost the ability to fund their pensions and seen the top rate of tax increase significantly.
The claim that the UK is in any way rewarding higher earners at the expense of others is a difficult one to justify.
Top 1% 'wages' are irrelevant to their wealth. I should know I'm easily in the top 1% but my wage isn't.24 weeks work per year purely to pay the tax bill.
The lower three quintiles of households pay nothing (net) in taxes, the second top pays little and the top quintile pays nearly everything.
In recent years higher earners have lost their tax-free allowance, have seen NI contributions go uncapped, lost the ability to fund their pensions and seen the top rate of tax increase significantly.
The claim that the UK is in any way rewarding higher earners at the expense of others is a difficult one to justify.
dimots said:
Top 1% 'wages' are irrelevant to their wealth. I should know I'm easily in the top 1% but my wage isn't.
We don’t tax wealth in the UK.Have you found the data yet that you based your rising inequality claim on? As I showed, GINI doesn’t back the claim up, so which data are you basing it on?
There is loads of rising wealth gap data, if you choose not to look for it that's up to you.
The UK is way off the pace here. You even have organisations like Patriotic Millionaires lobbying for more tax...yet in Pistonheads land, everything is rosy haha.
The UK is way off the pace here. You even have organisations like Patriotic Millionaires lobbying for more tax...yet in Pistonheads land, everything is rosy haha.
dimots said:
There is loads of rising wealth gap data, if you choose not to look for it that's up to you.
The UK is way off the pace here. You even have organisations like Patriotic Millionaires lobbying for more tax...yet in Pistonheads land, everything is rosy haha.
If your claim was about the wealth gap then why did you link to disposable income GINI?The UK is way off the pace here. You even have organisations like Patriotic Millionaires lobbying for more tax...yet in Pistonheads land, everything is rosy haha.
Wealth inequality in the UK has been relatively stable over the last fourteen years as this data shows.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
Ken_Code said:
In recent years higher earners have lost their tax-free allowance, have seen NI contributions go uncapped, lost the ability to fund their pensions and seen the top rate of tax increase significantly.
Well, not much HNWI left in the country anyway.U.K. has had one of the most outflows of wealthy individuals in the recent years, 2023 forecast was also quite high.
https://www.henleyglobal.com/publications/henley-p...
ClaphamGT3 said:
Any floating voter considering voting Labour in the next election should look at this policy and be warned.
You may not have children, you may not have children at private school, you may not ever be able to afford private education, you may even think private schooling is elitist and unfair but, if you are a household or individual making it on your own with little or no state support, this policy should worry you profoundly.
It has nothing to do with adding VAT to school fees; it has everything to do with Labour showing their hand that they are still the party of spite and envy politics; they are still the party that will put dogma over good fiscal sense; they are still the party that believe that they should have more authority over your money and your life than you.
Bridget Phillips on and Rachel Reeves are both highly intelligent people. They know full well that, however you try to argue it, the maths doesn't stack up on this one. They do know, however, that envy politics plays well with a big chunk of their core vote and placated the Corbynite headbangers in the PLP. They have alighted on this policy to trumpet because its a 'safe space' to indicate that the same old La bour shark is very much in the water - a big impact but felt by a very small number of people, a large proportion of whom were never going to vote Labour anyway.
I urge floating voters not to be taken in; here is a party that want your money and will trash your standard of living and financial security to get it.
What is your standard of living founded upon? It's a precious commodity. Preservation of privilege, vote tory.You may not have children, you may not have children at private school, you may not ever be able to afford private education, you may even think private schooling is elitist and unfair but, if you are a household or individual making it on your own with little or no state support, this policy should worry you profoundly.
It has nothing to do with adding VAT to school fees; it has everything to do with Labour showing their hand that they are still the party of spite and envy politics; they are still the party that will put dogma over good fiscal sense; they are still the party that believe that they should have more authority over your money and your life than you.
Bridget Phillips on and Rachel Reeves are both highly intelligent people. They know full well that, however you try to argue it, the maths doesn't stack up on this one. They do know, however, that envy politics plays well with a big chunk of their core vote and placated the Corbynite headbangers in the PLP. They have alighted on this policy to trumpet because its a 'safe space' to indicate that the same old La bour shark is very much in the water - a big impact but felt by a very small number of people, a large proportion of whom were never going to vote Labour anyway.
I urge floating voters not to be taken in; here is a party that want your money and will trash your standard of living and financial security to get it.
Edited by ClaphamGT3 on Sunday 7th April 12:38
But if you have more than two children we will cut your benefits including in work benefits. The most socially regressive policy of any government in years still has tory fingerprints all over it. The hilarious part is one of the factions (there are too many to remember the names now) encourages family values through more breeding.
But yes, those insidious people are out looking at your tax breaks. Imagine, horror of horrors. They're still going to allow charitable status for the schools. I haven't posted a strong opinion on this thread in a couple of weeks but from what I've read it's much more likely that the schools will cost cut if that happens rather than pass all of the cost onto the parents.
Imagine the horror of private schools having to cost cut in a similar manner as state schools have had to for years. They obviously won't have to be so extreme but there are no shortage of scare stories due to who it's affecting.
Where do you think the cost cutting will start?
I’d say the community projects, free access to sports facilities / swimming pools for local youngsters, free access to educational lectures, financial support to deserving students who wouldn’t otherwise have access to this education.
Whichever government we have should be concentrating it’s efforts on levelling up, not levelling down!
And this is from a comp educated boy who was pissed off athaving to pay for his children’s education due to the failings of our government (of all flavours, they’re as bad as each other, and anybody who thinks labour have a silver bullet is deluded).
I’d say the community projects, free access to sports facilities / swimming pools for local youngsters, free access to educational lectures, financial support to deserving students who wouldn’t otherwise have access to this education.
Whichever government we have should be concentrating it’s efforts on levelling up, not levelling down!
And this is from a comp educated boy who was pissed off athaving to pay for his children’s education due to the failings of our government (of all flavours, they’re as bad as each other, and anybody who thinks labour have a silver bullet is deluded).
gareth h said:
Where do you think the cost cutting will start?
I’d say the community projects, free access to sports facilities / swimming pools for local youngsters, free access to educational lectures, financial support to deserving students who wouldn’t otherwise have access to this education.
Whichever government we have should be concentrating it’s efforts on levelling up, not levelling down!
And this is from a comp educated boy who was pissed off athaving to pay for his children’s education due to the failings of our government (of all flavours, they’re as bad as each other, and anybody who thinks labour have a silver bullet is deluded).
The highly resourced schools will put their prices up so only foreign students and the children of Tory donors can afford them, and other schools will reduce their facilities to barely better than a comp level so poor aspirational types still have something to waste their money on.I’d say the community projects, free access to sports facilities / swimming pools for local youngsters, free access to educational lectures, financial support to deserving students who wouldn’t otherwise have access to this education.
Whichever government we have should be concentrating it’s efforts on levelling up, not levelling down!
And this is from a comp educated boy who was pissed off athaving to pay for his children’s education due to the failings of our government (of all flavours, they’re as bad as each other, and anybody who thinks labour have a silver bullet is deluded).
dimots said:
The highly resourced schools will put their prices up so only foreign students and the children of Tory donors can afford them, and other schools will reduce their facilities to barely better than a comp level so poor aspirational types still have something to waste their money on.
I fall into your definition of “poor aspirational”, it’s got nothing to do with aspirations, but everything to do with a failed state education system, why else would parents put themselves in debt to educate their kids?cheesejunkie said:
What is your standard of living founded upon? It's a precious commodity. Preservation of privilege, vote tory.
But if you have more than two children we will cut your benefits including in work benefits. The most socially regressive policy of any government in years still has tory fingerprints all over it. The hilarious part is one of the factions (there are too many to remember the names now) encourages family values through more breeding.
But yes, those insidious people are out looking at your tax breaks. Imagine, horror of horrors. They're still going to allow charitable status for the schools. I haven't posted a strong opinion on this thread in a couple of weeks but from what I've read it's much more likely that the schools will cost cut if that happens rather than pass all of the cost onto the parents.
Imagine the horror of private schools having to cost cut in a similar manner as state schools have had to for years. They obviously won't have to be so extreme but there are no shortage of scare stories due to who it's affecting.
I do think that the last part of your post is pretty illustrative of your real sentiment, now.But if you have more than two children we will cut your benefits including in work benefits. The most socially regressive policy of any government in years still has tory fingerprints all over it. The hilarious part is one of the factions (there are too many to remember the names now) encourages family values through more breeding.
But yes, those insidious people are out looking at your tax breaks. Imagine, horror of horrors. They're still going to allow charitable status for the schools. I haven't posted a strong opinion on this thread in a couple of weeks but from what I've read it's much more likely that the schools will cost cut if that happens rather than pass all of the cost onto the parents.
Imagine the horror of private schools having to cost cut in a similar manner as state schools have had to for years. They obviously won't have to be so extreme but there are no shortage of scare stories due to who it's affecting.
It's envy, or if not that, egalitarianism but in a negative sense. We have a two part system, which is inequitable, true. We partially have that system because the state system is so broken. But the last part of your post, and Labours policy doesn't say:
"We should improve the state system so that everyone enjoys a high standard of education".
It says:
"The state system is bad, and to lake everything fair, so should the private system"
This isn't equality, or equit in a positive sense. It's leveling down.
I was with you on some of your arguments - but this reveals your true motives here, and Labour's, really.
The latest study by Censuswide predicts that private schools could lose a third of their pupils once VAT is levied. The cost to the taxpayer will be around £1.3bn, only slightly less than the VAT measure is claimed to raise. This sets aside the disruption to pupils education, the already full state system in many areas and the fact that new schools are not being built where need will be most acute.
Many small private schools will be forced to close altogether if more than 10% of pupils are forced to leave. This will dump around 200 pupils a time in local areas.
A great win for labour of course - punishing 'toffs' is a vote winner.
Many small private schools will be forced to close altogether if more than 10% of pupils are forced to leave. This will dump around 200 pupils a time in local areas.
A great win for labour of course - punishing 'toffs' is a vote winner.
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