Private schools, times a changing?

[Tom8]

Louis Balfour said:

B0bajobbob said:

Tom8 said:

I also had little bond with uni friends as my friendships had already been made at school.

That's an interesting observation. I am still in touch with many friends from school. None from university.

The other way round for me. I am still in touch with a number of Uni friends from 30 years ago. No school friends.

My sister only keep up with uni friends none from school, but she changed schools a number of times. I did prep then public school at 13/14 and that was it.

[Harry Flashman]

Tom8 said:

Louis Balfour said:

B0bajobbob said:

Tom8 said:

I also had little bond with uni friends as my friendships had already been made at school.

That's an interesting observation. I am still in touch with many friends from school. None from university.

The other way round for me. I am still in touch with a number of Uni friends from 30 years ago. No school friends.

My sister only keep up with uni friends none from school, but she changed schools a number of times. I did prep then public school at 13/14 and that was it.

I'm in touch with both sets of friends, and indeed both groups have become good friends in their own right on many occasions. I am more in touch with uni friends than school friends, in terms of number of strong, current friendships, rather than acquaintances.

Just goes to show that every such experience is personal, and can't really be generalised on.

[Countdown]

AstonZagato said:

No, they are bowing to political pressure and negative press stories. They were previously choosing what they regarded as being the "best" students (it was never about grades for Oxbridge - as I can personally attest - it is more about the interview and aptitude tests). It turned out that the "best" (as they saw it), came predominantly from private schools.

Why do you think that the "best" students previously came from private schools? Were students who went to private schools inherently more intelligent than children who went to State schools? I think we already discussed this and agreed that private schooling confers a huge advantage on students. Let's be honest, if it didn't then parents would be stupid spending £o000s on sending their kids private if they were likely to achieve the same results at a State school.

All Universities are doing now is recognising the advantage that private school students have and that somebody who achieved AAB from Stabbsville City Academy might actually be more intelligent than somebody who attained the same grades from Eton or Harrow..

i can also understand why Contextual offers might upset people who send their kids to private school. What's the point of spending £0000s giving your kids an davntage in life if Universities are going to reduce the effects of that advantage?

ETA In terms of comparative performance once admitted I can't find anything that suggests State school entrants do worse than those from private school

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/news/state-...
https://www.quora.com/A-study-from-Cambridge-concl...

Edited by Countdown on Tuesday 14th March 18:45

[NomduJour]

Countdown said:

Why do you think that the "best" students previously came from private schools? Were students who went to private schools inherently more intelligent than children who went to State schools? I think we already discussed this and agreed that private schooling confers a huge advantage on students. Let's be honest, if it didn't then parents would be stupid spending £o000s on sending their kids private if they were likely to achieve the same results at a State school.

There are lots of high-achieving state schools. Should their students be penalised, too?

(Aside from that, there are arguments that academic outcomes have more to do with genetics and socioeconomic background than schooling - maybe we should start selective lobotomisation and sticking parents on benefits to make it “fair”).

[Countdown]

NomduJour said:

There are lots of high-achieving state schools. Should their students be penalised, too?

(Aside from that, there are arguments that academic outcomes have more to do with genetics and socioeconomic background than schooling - maybe we should start selective lobotomisation and sticking parents on benefits to make it “fair”).

Contextual offers already take into account socio-economic background. I would be interested to see what evidence there is that genetics has an impact on academic attainment.

[NomduJour]

Countdown said:

I would be interested to see what evidence there is that genetics has an impact on academic attainment.

Sure Google will help you there.

[Harry Flashman]

NomduJour said:

There are lots of high-achieving state schools. Should their students be penalised, too?

(Aside from that, there are arguments that academic outcomes have more to do with genetics and socioeconomic background than schooling - maybe we should start selective lobotomisation and sticking parents on benefits to make it “fair”).

Genetics determining intellectual ability?

Well, that's not the first time folk have argued that. Some humans being genetically superior to others. What's that viewpoint called again?

[NomduJour]

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg...

https://www.york.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2019/r...

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1408777111

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180905-how-ge...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC69383...

https://thedailytexan.com/2018/09/24/study-shows-a...

Etc.

[Harry Flashman]

I stand corrected.

And am now slightly depressed.

[AstonZagato]

Countdown said:

AstonZagato said:

No, they are bowing to political pressure and negative press stories. They were previously choosing what they regarded as being the "best" students (it was never about grades for Oxbridge - as I can personally attest - it is more about the interview and aptitude tests). It turned out that the "best" (as they saw it), came predominantly from private schools.

Why do you think that the "best" students previously came from private schools? Were students who went to private schools inherently more intelligent than children who went to State schools? I think we already discussed this and agreed that private schooling confers a huge advantage on students. Let's be honest, if it didn't then parents would be stupid spending £o000s on sending their kids private if they were likely to achieve the same results at a State school.

All Universities are doing now is recognising the advantage that private school students have and that somebody who achieved AAB from Stabbsville City Academy might actually be more intelligent than somebody who attained the same grades from Eton or Harrow..

i can also understand why Contextual offers might upset people who send their kids to private school. What's the point of spending £0000s giving your kids an davntage in life if Universities are going to reduce the effects of that advantage?

ETA In terms of comparative performance once admitted I can't find anything that suggests State school entrants do worse than those from private school

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/news/state-...
https://www.quora.com/A-study-from-Cambridge-concl...

I didn’t say that I thought that private school pupils were the “best”. I said that Oxbridge considered them to be the “best” - the entry statistics from a decade ago illustrate that.

I have no skin in this game - my kids are all settled. I just have an inside source that tells me the process and the outcomes out of frustration.

[gangzoom]

AstonZagato said:

I didn’t say that I thought that private school pupils were the “best”. I said that Oxbridge considered them to be the “best” - the entry statistics from a decade ago illustrate that.

I think that says more about Oxbridge than anything else

[gangzoom]

Harry Flashman said:

I stand corrected.

And am now slightly depressed.

I always find this interesting, I failed more exams in school than nearly all my peers at school, I was nearly kicked out of 2nd school and no one was sure how I was able to get a place at Uni, my 6th form tutor pretty much fell off his chair when I told him I go in. At Uni I did equally badly, failed every exam in the first 2 terms, plenty of people wanted me out (Head of year really really wanted to get rid of me), the only reason I wasn't kicked out was because the dean stepped in - apparently he saw me as someone worth while supporting.

I'm now for some reason recognized as someone with real potential within in our organization which is full of people which much more academic qualifications than me, and a private school education is the norm for pretty much all my peers, yet I'm now line-managing people older, better educated, far more experience etc etc, and the 360 I just did seem to show people on the whole feel I have potential. How did that happen, I'm still not sure, but I certainly don't consider my self intelligent based on any academic assessment.

Though interestingly as it happens our daughter is been pushed by her school (state) to essentially read/do work from the year above, her reading level is around 2 years ahead we are told - apparently she didn't drop a single mark in the mock SATs the school just run, we do no extra work at home or take for any extra classes. She certainly doesn't get any of her school performance from me, my wife on the other hand was in papers for having 12 A* or something (might be 13).......not that I'm jealous about that .

So maybe schools just don't matter at all........wouldn't that be depressing for 2000years+ ongoing educational theory and ontological development!!!

But because of my personal experiences, I go out of my way to support those students who seem to be struggling, because 99% of my tutors/teachers wrote me off - many told me to my face what they thought about me. If it wasn't for one person going out of their way to support me when they didn't have to, I have no idea what I would be doing now, so I want to support/give time to as many 'failing' students as I can!

Its painful for me to hear academic staff suggesting its the fault of pupils for not doing well, when its literally their job to support those students who need help the most.

Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 15th March 07:09

[fridaypassion]

The big problem with schools and it was really something that started 20 odd years ago when I was leaving is that they are laser focused on A levels and Uni. At the time I left was in the Blair era when they were (with good intention) wanting to drive more of the working classes down the academic route.

What I've learnt since 1995 is that there's more than one way to crack a nut and further education simply isn't for everyone. This is hard for teaching professionals to understand as they can only get into teaching via this standardised route. Wanting a none academic future must be harder for someone in the private system as you'll be conditioned even more than in state school that you simply go to uni.

I would love for my kids to go to an entrepreneurial college if there was such a thing. Out of school and then straight into teaching kids how to run a business. No focus on any kind of qualification your diploma is a business you've set up. Maybe this exists already but it's a cracking business idea!

The other thing I would be more keen for my kids to persue would be apprenticeship route and going into engineering or skilled trades.

None of the above will be of interest to private schools which is one of the things I'm wrestling with. We went to view one yesterday with DD and we are all just considering it. This school only has 20 kids in the year group obviously a much better learning environment than the current state school. Big thing for a 13 year old but she's really not happy in her current school

[Louis Balfour]

fridaypassion said:

The big problem with schools and it was really something that started 20 odd years ago when I was leaving is that they are laser focused on A levels and Uni. At the time I left was in the Blair era when they were (with good intention) wanting to drive more of the working classes down the academic route.

What I've learnt since 1995 is that there's more than one way to crack a nut and further education simply isn't for everyone. This is hard for teaching professionals to understand as they can only get into teaching via this standardised route. Wanting a none academic future must be harder for someone in the private system as you'll be conditioned even more than in state school that you simply go to uni.

I would love for my kids to go to an entrepreneurial college if there was such a thing. Out of school and then straight into teaching kids how to run a business. No focus on any kind of qualification your diploma is a business you've set up. Maybe this exists already but it's a cracking business idea!

The other thing I would be more keen for my kids to persue would be apprenticeship route and going into engineering or skilled trades.

None of the above will be of interest to private schools which is one of the things I'm wrestling with. We went to view one yesterday with DD and we are all just considering it. This school only has 20 kids in the year group obviously a much better learning environment than the current state school. Big thing for a 13 year old but she's really not happy in her current school

To be honest, academic achievement and what Uni children go to are not really the main benefits I see in private education.

For want of a better description it's roundedness and finish that I see as the main benefits. When I speak to youngsters of school age I can generally spot the independent school pupils. They are better informed, well-mannered and know how to converse with people. You can just TELL.

[fridaypassion]

Yes there was talk of a holistic approach.

The situation with the state school DD is currently at is an odd one they drive the kids pretty hard academically. If you get in the top sets they push them and their results are reasonably good considering the catchment area. She gets an insane amount of homework. Kids still have disruptive behaviour and the latest phase is kids fighting actually within the school building. 3 the other day.

Now I went to a state school with a pretty rough catchment area and yes there were fights but you would never do it in school! It seems like the kids just have no respect for boundaries and its stuff like that ours are taught at home but this is not going to be the case for all. We are keen for her to go but she needs to be on board I can see her really thriving in a smaller more calm environment.

You just want the best for them eh!?

[Louis Balfour]

fridaypassion said:

Yes there was talk of a holistic approach.

The situation with the state school DD is currently at is an odd one they drive the kids pretty hard academically. If you get in the top sets they push them and their results are reasonably good considering the catchment area. She gets an insane amount of homework. Kids still have disruptive behaviour and the latest phase is kids fighting actually within the school building. 3 the other day.

Now I went to a state school with a pretty rough catchment area and yes there were fights but you would never do it in school! It seems like the kids just have no respect for boundaries and its stuff like that ours are taught at home but this is not going to be the case for all. We are keen for her to go but she needs to be on board I can see her really thriving in a smaller more calm environment.

You just want the best for them eh!?

It is not the case that independent schools are without their challenges. Children will be children. But in the state sector you are lumped in with those children whose parents don't give a toss and you have the problems that you describe.

Broadly, parents of children at independent school DO give a toss because they are paying for it. If the school phones a parent because a child is being disruptive it is generally taken seriously and behaviour improves.

[brickwall]

Louis Balfour said:

To be honest, academic achievement and what Uni children go to are not really the main benefits I see in private education.

For want of a better description it's roundedness and finish that I see as the main benefits. When I speak to youngsters of school age I can generally spot the independent school pupils. They are better informed, well-mannered and know how to converse with people. You can just TELL.

But that’s a qualified response; you can be happy in the rounded education because the academics are so solid. In many state environments you can’t take the academics for granted so it’s understandable why they focus so much there.

I’d be very pleased if my kids school taught them how to paint. I might be less pleased if they did that but the kids came out the end unable to read.

[Louis Balfour]

brickwall said:

I’d be very pleased if my kids school taught them how to paint. I might be less pleased if they did that but the kids came out the end unable to read.

It's no biggy. The chap who painted my house was barely literate and he still did a good job.

[fridaypassion]

Louis Balfour said:

It is not the case that independent schools are without their challenges. Children will be children. But in the state sector you are lumped in with those children whose parents don't give a toss and you have the problems that you describe.

Broadly, parents of children at independent school DO give a toss because they are paying for it. If the school phones a parent because a child is being disruptive it is generally taken seriously and behaviour improves.

Yeah there's bound to be a better general attitude as you say. I have no doubt that they are all still little sts at times as all three of mine can be! They all have exemplary behaviour at school but grow horns when they get home!

[AstonZagato]

gangzoom said:

AstonZagato said:

I didn’t say that I thought that private school pupils were the “best”. I said that Oxbridge considered them to be the “best” - the entry statistics from a decade ago illustrate that.

I think that says more about Oxbridge than anything else

Well, it certainly worked for them - regularly ranking well in the global league tables and each garnering more Nobel prizes than anywhere other than Harvard.
My experience of Oxbridge (going back 40 years) is that the academics, if anything, are inherently left of centre - but they nevertheless want the "best" students regardless of background. I'm pretty sure that, if they thought back then they could get better students from the state system, they would have taken them.