Private schools, times a changing?

[okgo]

st people do st things. Fairly obvious. Just reading about another dog attack on a kid - never two chocolate labs in the posh end of town is it. The UK public are an eye opening bunch.

Hence why for me it is infinitely more impressive when a kid from a council estate with no role models and all the negative distractions in the world does well. That’s the whole point of the thread - obviously though if I leave my child to try and make his moonshot among all those sorts of personalities and such there’s a fairly good chance he wouldn’t be that bright kid and worst case he’d be much more trouble.

Alternative - spend some money and remove most of the guesswork/gamble from the equation. And still have the moonshot that they’re amazing even amongst a high level. But worst case is they come out probably in a vastly better position than the worst case of the state.

It’s a problem that grammar schools partially get rid of, but not totally I think. The interesting bit here if of course when they get left to their own devices and find booze, drugs and whatever else at uni. You can’t engineer someone forever and do these kids that are so coached for so long have that ‘now I’m free’ moment and go a bit wild more than those who have been free from the age of ten? Maybe. Lot of drug problems in posh schools, my mate did more beak at Bradfield than he did as a recruiter in London!

[Deranged Rover]

RammyMP said:

My son had his entrance interview for his school when he was 3. He did a jigsaw with the head teacher then threw a biscuit at her! I don’t know what she was looking for but he got in. He starts his last term there next month 14 years later.

I went to a private school and when I went to the interview day at the prep department aged 3, this was around the time that I had an odd obsession with toilet cisterns, ballcocks and the way in which they operated.

Apparently, during the day I asked to be taken to the toilet and got the teacher to lift the lid of the cistern so that I could inspect the workings. I then explained to her how it worked and how it differed from the one in our toilet at home. This allegedly helped to secure my place and probably explains why I'm an engineer now!

As an aside, my mother never forgot one thing that the headmaster said in front of the parents at the end of the day's summing-up session (it was an all-boys' school, incidentally). He said "At the end of their time at this school, I cannot promise to send you home a genius. I will, however, send you home a gentleman".

[Tom8]

Deranged Rover said:

RammyMP said:

My son had his entrance interview for his school when he was 3. He did a jigsaw with the head teacher then threw a biscuit at her! I don’t know what she was looking for but he got in. He starts his last term there next month 14 years later.

I went to a private school and when I went to the interview day at the prep department aged 3, this was around the time that I had an odd obsession with toilet cisterns, ballcocks and the way in which they operated.

Apparently, during the day I asked to be taken to the toilet and got the teacher to lift the lid of the cistern so that I could inspect the workings. I then explained to her how it worked and how it differed from the one in our toilet at home. This allegedly helped to secure my place and probably explains why I'm an engineer now!

As an aside, my mother never forgot one thing that the headmaster said in front of the parents at the end of the day's summing-up session (it was an all-boys' school, incidentally). He said "At the end of their time at this school, I cannot promise to send you home a genius. I will, however, send you home a gentleman".

I went t a rural prep school and the headmaster took my mum on the tour. At the end she asked him why she should send me there. He said that we can all educate and teach, but he said we take pride in sending the boys home dirty and with cut knees. She signed up straight away.

It goes back to the point that state schools are so wrapped up in teaching rather than educating, not really their fault as that is what they are measured against. I suspect the good state schools are the ones that offer more than just teaching and the results then follow. Funny how we have had a government for 13 years built on "toffs who went to Eaton" who don't try and encourage this type of education in the state sector. All is limited however when Jayden, Zayden and Bayden's parents don't care.

[gareth h]

okgo said:

st people do st things. Fairly obvious. Just reading about another dog attack on a kid - never two chocolate labs in the posh end of town is it. The UK public are an eye opening bunch.

Hence why for me it is infinitely more impressive when a kid from a council estate with no role models and all the negative distractions in the world does well. That’s the whole point of the thread - obviously though if I leave my child to try and make his moonshot among all those sorts of personalities and such there’s a fairly good chance he wouldn’t be that bright kid and worst case he’d be much more trouble.

Alternative - spend some money and remove most of the guesswork/gamble from the equation. And still have the moonshot that they’re amazing even amongst a high level. But worst case is they come out probably in a vastly better position than the worst case of the state.

It’s a problem that grammar schools partially get rid of, but not totally I think. The interesting bit here if of course when they get left to their own devices and find booze, drugs and whatever else at uni. You can’t engineer someone forever and do these kids that are so coached for so long have that ‘now I’m free’ moment and go a bit wild more than those who have been free from the age of ten? Maybe. Lot of drug problems in posh schools, my mate did more beak at Bradfield than he did as a recruiter in London!

That was my thinking, no guarantees but do the best you can for them and at least there’s no “I wish I’d done that” at a later date.
The whole grammar school thing is so flawed, middle class parents cramming their kids for the 11+. And when the poor sods get accepted they aren’t bright enough and are under pressure to keep up with the naturally bright kids, too much pressure as a result of pushy parents.

[ooid]

okgo said:

Hence why for me it is infinitely more impressive when a kid from a council estate with no role models and all the negative distractions in the world does well. That’s the whole point of the thread - obviously though if I leave my child to try and make his moonshot among all those sorts of personalities and such there’s a fairly good chance he wouldn’t be that bright kid and worst case he’d be much more trouble.

I spent a relatively good time working in higher education. If I try to remember the highest performing students (academically), they were all coming from quite unprivileged backgrounds. I asked one of them once, how he actually learned his "learning skills" in the earlier life, he said, complete self-education and personal curiosity but wished his parents could have afforded a much better educational environment, things would have been different.

I guess the point, parents would do their best to give the best educational environment that they can afford, some people with high potential(Academics or sports) can thrive further with more opportunities. As you mention for many people, the "unsafe" conditions of some comprehensive schools are big issues nowadays (gangs, violence, drugs and etc...)

[NDA]

Deranged Rover said:

I went to a private school and when I went to the interview day at the prep department aged 3, this was around the time that I had an odd obsession with toilet cisterns, ballcocks and the way in which they operated.

My son went through a very short phase of being fascinated by wheelie bins. I have no idea why. Veolia very kindly sent him a mini one which he treasured.

[JimmyConwayNW]

gareth h said:

That was my thinking, no guarantees but do the best you can for them and at least there’s no “I wish I’d done that” at a later date.
The whole grammar school thing is so flawed, middle class parents cramming their kids for the 11+. And when the poor sods get accepted they aren’t bright enough and are under pressure to keep up with the naturally bright kids, too much pressure as a result of pushy parents.

I originally thought see how they go at half decent primary, but then recently realised that most state primary schools who think the kid is doing well if you send the kid for assesment at private they dont go straight to the top of class but are middle / bottom in private.

Surely the early years bits are really key

[Tom8]

JimmyConwayNW said:

gareth h said:

That was my thinking, no guarantees but do the best you can for them and at least there’s no “I wish I’d done that” at a later date.
The whole grammar school thing is so flawed, middle class parents cramming their kids for the 11+. And when the poor sods get accepted they aren’t bright enough and are under pressure to keep up with the naturally bright kids, too much pressure as a result of pushy parents.

I originally thought see how they go at half decent primary, but then recently realised that most state primary schools who think the kid is doing well if you send the kid for assesment at private they dont go straight to the top of class but are middle / bottom in private.

Surely the early years bits are really key

We had this debate. Go state primary, save the cash then pay for private at common entrance. My thinking is the formative years are just that so went private from day one. Glad we did. We are rural so classes in primary can be mixed ages which I don't think would help when it comes to pushing an older and brighter child.

Incidentally my wife went to a grammar in kent and absolutely hated it as it is all driven to the academic results, like a state school on steroids. The first and foremost element of any education surely has to be that it is enjoyable.

[EmBe]

Jonmx said:

I went to prep and private school as the son of an HGV driver and housewife. Tin baths in front of the fire, no TV and lived in charity shop clothes. Thankfully a Grandfather left his RAF pension and some other money that just about covered the fees. I'm 40 now and still speak to folks from not dissimilar backgrounds who sacrifice a heck of a lot to get their kids into a private school.
On a personal level, the local state system has no suitable SEN provision for my son (EHCP at 3 for Autism & Cystic Fibrosis) so we've had him in a local prep school and the LA has paid for a one on one to support him in class. An oft unreported fact is how much the state system relies on the private sector to cover for their lack of SEN provision. The State cannot afford for the abolition of private schools on any level. Just one example in this recent article. "Wandsworth council spends about £12million a year on sending kids to private schools outside the borough, due to a lack of places in Wandsworth."
https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/primary-school-set-...

This struck a chord, my daughter has CF, hearing loss, an immune deficiency and dyslexia - at primary, all the school were interested in was the pupil premium they could get for her, when we actually asked them to use some of it to provide help with her dyslexia it was somehow forgotten about.
Some of the requests we made to reduce the risk of her catching a chest infection were 'forgotten' or simply ignored (a chest infection for a child with CF usually means ending up in hospital on IV antibiotics for a couple of weeks or more).

So we moved her to an independent school 2 years ago.

She now has a 'passport' which every teacher has about every child with SEN containing all the things they need to know about her, it's reviewed every term with the specialist learning support teacher. To help with the CF they encourage her in sports during and after school and provide extra calories at mealtimes plus allow her to have snacks though the day (people with CF need to eat more) - the difference is night and day and to me, the cost is immaterial, although it's not a trivial sum for us (only I work) I feel we get very good value for money compared to the state system.

[NDA]

No, but, yeah, but, no - you have to have a single system otherwise it's unfair. We need to take choice out of the system, no matter how good the alternatives might be.

[z4RRSchris]

I went, turned out ok. my future sprogs will go.

[Trax]

brickwall said:

It doesn’t matter whether it’s true or not for individual parents. What matters is how it appears.

The reality is £25k/year (or more) per child is seen as so far out of reach to anyone on anything resembling a ‘normal’ income that it is put firmly in the category of “only accessible to the 1%”

As you say, there will be plenty of parents who make sacrifices to afford it, or who can afford it but don’t see themselves as especially wealthy.

But what about the majority of private schools not in London, that charge about half of that? With two parents of average incomes makin sacrifices to send a child? Its them who will be affected, the rich will just miss a weekend on the yacht.

[Jonmx]

EmBe said:

Jonmx said:

I went to prep and private school as the son of an HGV driver and housewife. Tin baths in front of the fire, no TV and lived in charity shop clothes. Thankfully a Grandfather left his RAF pension and some other money that just about covered the fees. I'm 40 now and still speak to folks from not dissimilar backgrounds who sacrifice a heck of a lot to get their kids into a private school.
On a personal level, the local state system has no suitable SEN provision for my son (EHCP at 3 for Autism & Cystic Fibrosis) so we've had him in a local prep school and the LA has paid for a one on one to support him in class. An oft unreported fact is how much the state system relies on the private sector to cover for their lack of SEN provision. The State cannot afford for the abolition of private schools on any level. Just one example in this recent article. "Wandsworth council spends about £12million a year on sending kids to private schools outside the borough, due to a lack of places in Wandsworth."
https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/primary-school-set-...

This struck a chord, my daughter has CF, hearing loss, an immune deficiency and dyslexia - at primary, all the school were interested in was the pupil premium they could get for her, when we actually asked them to use some of it to provide help with her dyslexia it was somehow forgotten about.
Some of the requests we made to reduce the risk of her catching a chest infection were 'forgotten' or simply ignored (a chest infection for a child with CF usually means ending up in hospital on IV antibiotics for a couple of weeks or more).

So we moved her to an independent school 2 years ago.

She now has a 'passport' which every teacher has about every child with SEN containing all the things they need to know about her, it's reviewed every term with the specialist learning support teacher. To help with the CF they encourage her in sports during and after school and provide extra calories at mealtimes plus allow her to have snacks though the day (people with CF need to eat more) - the difference is night and day and to me, the cost is immaterial, although it's not a trivial sum for us (only I work) I feel we get very good value for money compared to the state system.

Great to hear your daughter's doing well, the passport sounds like a brilliant idea. The CF diet is amusing, especially the looks you get when your kid is stuffing their face with chocolate and crisps.
We've found the Autism to be far more challenging in relation to securing education than the CF, hence the prep school. The local CF team are great and go into the schools and educate staff about how to manage risk, administer Creon etc. Sadly tomorrow is his last day in the prep school as his needs are too great now, and he's off to a SEN unit in a primary that's around 20 miles away; but that's another story for another thread.

[Tom8]

Trax said:

brickwall said:

It doesn’t matter whether it’s true or not for individual parents. What matters is how it appears.

The reality is £25k/year (or more) per child is seen as so far out of reach to anyone on anything resembling a ‘normal’ income that it is put firmly in the category of “only accessible to the 1%”

As you say, there will be plenty of parents who make sacrifices to afford it, or who can afford it but don’t see themselves as especially wealthy.

But what about the majority of private schools not in London, that charge about half of that? With two parents of average incomes makin sacrifices to send a child? Its them who will be affected, the rich will just miss a weekend on the yacht.

25k or more is pretty exceptional, mostly for boarding or top end schools. Sub 20k is "normal" Driving past local comp the other day it looked like a new car show room. I suppose it is all about priorities, spend on yourself or spend on your children.

[z4RRSchris]

where i went is now 39k, highgate is 21k.

[Cheburator mk2]

Both kids at Alleyn's and the elder is about to go to Sevenoaks from the Autumn... Sadly, easily £25k each now and about £30k once both are in Sevenoaks... I don't see an alternative....



P.S. Mine was £12k per year in Edinburgh in 1994 (100% academic scholarship + bursary), now £40k...

Edited by Cheburator mk2 on Tuesday 28th March 16:09

[okgo]

I grew up near Lord Wandsworth and that’s nearly £30k day. Bedales also £30k day. So I think actually perhaps prices are higher than many give credit for - but I suppose these are still affected by London money.

One of the ones we are looking at has just increased fees by 8%, expensive business heating and feeding hundreds of people.

[okgo]

Cheburator mk2 said:

Both kids at Alleyn's and the elder is about to go to Sevenoaks from the Autumn... Sadly, easily £25k each now and about £30k once both are in Sevenoaks... I don't see an alternative....



P.S. Mine was £12k per year in Edinburgh in 1994 (100% academic scholarship + bursary), now £40k...

Edited by Cheburator mk2 on Tuesday 28th March 16:09

You will find that a nursery school locally costs more than Alleyns.

Interesting you’re moving them on, the appeal I gather from folk is that Alleyns is seen as a golden ticket all the way to 18!

I assume you’re moving house, that’s another element to all this, I’d probably buy another London house if got into Alleyns but if it’s one of the others it makes sense the coincide leaving London with the need to find a senior school.

[EmBe]

Jonmx said:

EmBe said:

Jonmx said:

I went to prep and private school as the son of an HGV driver and housewife. Tin baths in front of the fire, no TV and lived in charity shop clothes. Thankfully a Grandfather left his RAF pension and some other money that just about covered the fees. I'm 40 now and still speak to folks from not dissimilar backgrounds who sacrifice a heck of a lot to get their kids into a private school.
On a personal level, the local state system has no suitable SEN provision for my son (EHCP at 3 for Autism & Cystic Fibrosis) so we've had him in a local prep school and the LA has paid for a one on one to support him in class. An oft unreported fact is how much the state system relies on the private sector to cover for their lack of SEN provision. The State cannot afford for the abolition of private schools on any level. Just one example in this recent article. "Wandsworth council spends about £12million a year on sending kids to private schools outside the borough, due to a lack of places in Wandsworth."
https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/primary-school-set-...

This struck a chord, my daughter has CF, hearing loss, an immune deficiency and dyslexia - at primary, all the school were interested in was the pupil premium they could get for her, when we actually asked them to use some of it to provide help with her dyslexia it was somehow forgotten about.
Some of the requests we made to reduce the risk of her catching a chest infection were 'forgotten' or simply ignored (a chest infection for a child with CF usually means ending up in hospital on IV antibiotics for a couple of weeks or more).

So we moved her to an independent school 2 years ago.

She now has a 'passport' which every teacher has about every child with SEN containing all the things they need to know about her, it's reviewed every term with the specialist learning support teacher. To help with the CF they encourage her in sports during and after school and provide extra calories at mealtimes plus allow her to have snacks though the day (people with CF need to eat more) - the difference is night and day and to me, the cost is immaterial, although it's not a trivial sum for us (only I work) I feel we get very good value for money compared to the state system.

Great to hear your daughter's doing well, the passport sounds like a brilliant idea. The CF diet is amusing, especially the looks you get when your kid is stuffing their face with chocolate and crisps.
We've found the Autism to be far more challenging in relation to securing education than the CF, hence the prep school. The local CF team are great and go into the schools and educate staff about how to manage risk, administer Creon etc. Sadly tomorrow is his last day in the prep school as his needs are too great now, and he's off to a SEN unit in a primary that's around 20 miles away; but that's another story for another thread.

Without wishing to derail the thread.....(I will anyway )

I imagine autism is a lot harder to cope with in regard to schooling especially, a good friend has a severely autistic son just entering adulthood and from the trials and tribulations they've been through (and continue to go through), it makes dealing with CF and her other issues look like childsplay in comparison; I take my hat off to you dealing with both.

[Cheburator mk2]

okgo said:

You will find that a nursery school locally costs more than Alleyns.

Interesting you’re moving them on, the appeal I gather from folk is that Alleyns is seen as a golden ticket all the way to 18!

I assume you’re moving house, that’s another element to all this, I’d probably buy another London house if got into Alleyns but if it’s one of the others it makes sense the coincide leaving London with the need to find a senior school.

We really like Alleyn’s and so do the kids. Sevenoaks is just another step up and even more importantly, it is the top IB school in the U.K. We want our kids to do the IB and to have options for Europe (dual citizenship helps), the US and the U.K.

Not moving house - we are 40mins door to door from Alleyn’s and 40mins from Sevenoaks