Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
The other thing we are seeing with the offspring of my brothers and friends is that, whereas 10+ years ago they would have gone to Oxbridge, now they are going to university overseas. Just within our circle of friends, we know people with children at Berkely, MIT, Yale, Aarhus, Leiden, Vlerick and the Sorbonne
Not yet. And perhaps never. Oxbridge wants the brightest kids but they don't want the PR hassle every year. If they can say that X% are from state schools, they are happy.
ItThe whole thing does annoy me, as it is not the kid's "fault" - they didn't choose their schools. It's "sins of the father" stuff.
ItThe whole thing does annoy me, as it is not the kid's "fault" - they didn't choose their schools. It's "sins of the father" stuff.
I guess it depends how bad your state schools are. We have grammar schools here if they want to go the 11+ or whatever it’s called but I’m not sure I would spend the money sending them away to private school. Surely the money could be better spent on life experiences and a decent deposit on a house? After all if they are clever enough they will get into a decent Uni either in this country or a scholarship to the US.
Wales has a dedicated programme to get state school into top Unis.
Wales has a dedicated programme to get state school into top Unis.
ClaphamGT3 said:
The other thing we are seeing with the offspring of my brothers and friends is that, whereas 10+ years ago they would have gone to Oxbridge, now they are going to university overseas. Just within our circle of friends, we know people with children at Berkely, MIT, Yale, Aarhus, Leiden, Vlerick and the Sorbonne
Yup.The US universities in particular are being pretty active in targeting this group. Not least because many of the US unis take a more ‘rounded’ picture in admissions where Oxbridge only cares about academics. So all the co-curricular stuff that private schools are so good at can really help in an Ivy League application where it counts for nothing in an Oxbridge one.
And as for the cost - For parents sending kids to private school:
- If you’re very wealthy then the difference between UK and US fees isn’t a problem
- If you’re not very wealthy (but still paying for private schools), then the thresholds for financial aid at some US universities is sufficiently high that even higher-earning professionals may still qualify for some help
brickwall said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
The other thing we are seeing with the offspring of my brothers and friends is that, whereas 10+ years ago they would have gone to Oxbridge, now they are going to university overseas. Just within our circle of friends, we know people with children at Berkely, MIT, Yale, Aarhus, Leiden, Vlerick and the Sorbonne
Yup.The US universities in particular are being pretty active in targeting this group. Not least because many of the US unis take a more ‘rounded’ picture in admissions where Oxbridge only cares about academics. So all the co-curricular stuff that private schools are so good at can really help in an Ivy League application where it counts for nothing in an Oxbridge one.
And as for the cost - For parents sending kids to private school:
- If you’re very wealthy then the difference between UK and US fees isn’t a problem
- If you’re not very wealthy (but still paying for private schools), then the thresholds for financial aid at some US universities is sufficiently high that even higher-earning professionals may still qualify for some help
Metal Guru said:
I think my son was extremely glad we could give him a substantial amount of money for his house rather than having spent it sending him to a posh school.
Having been through paying for private education I can see the benefits of doing exactly this. I’ve got less than 2yrs remaining now.
I also see why some would take kids out of private when kids get to 6th form however as my daughter smashed her GCSE’s it would have been hard to suddenly pull her from the school she’s excelled at .
I tried taking my son out of the private system. He'd done ok at GCSEs so we sent him to an exceptionally well funded, public, faith school. At the end of the first year he failed so badly I was told he was not academic enough for A Levels and that they would not take him for the second year.
So he went to a private school to finish his A levels.
He's just finished a Masters at Imperial, got an amazing job and is considering a PhD.
So he went to a private school to finish his A levels.
He's just finished a Masters at Imperial, got an amazing job and is considering a PhD.
GT3Manthey said:
Having been through paying for private education I can see the benefits of doing exactly this.
I’ve got less than 2yrs remaining now.
I also see why some would take kids out of private when kids get to 6th form however as my daughter smashed her GCSE’s it would have been hard to suddenly pull her from the school she’s excelled at .
What are the benefits?I’ve got less than 2yrs remaining now.
I also see why some would take kids out of private when kids get to 6th form however as my daughter smashed her GCSE’s it would have been hard to suddenly pull her from the school she’s excelled at .
For me it doesn’t seem like the two things are even related beyond money, and that’s before you get to the ‘life lesson’ of buying someone a house straight up..
okgo said:
What are the benefits?
For me it doesn’t seem like the two things are even related beyond money, and that’s before you get to the ‘life lesson’ of buying someone a house straight up..
It’s a choice that some decide to make probably based around how good local state schools are. For me it doesn’t seem like the two things are even related beyond money, and that’s before you get to the ‘life lesson’ of buying someone a house straight up..
As I said in a previous post , if I had the chance to do it all again I’d have probably used the state system but we were advised that my eldest would benefit from a private school which to a point he did but my daughter I feel wouldn’t have needed it but by that stage we were all in !
Like a lot of things, it depends .
I went to a fantastic state school, and I have two degrees post graduate and professional qualifications. I’ve not done badly in life.
A close friend the same age went to a top private school. He is a millionaire, with two stellar careers behind him. One being in the military.
We grew up in the same road, our family and social backgrounds are similar. Is his success down to the education or the fact that he’s brighter and more switched on than me? It’s the latter.
I think where state school fails is when the catchment area it covers tends to have more families with social problems. Peer group pressure and a general ethos to do well was important to me and I found school life pretty easy. It’s got to be harder coming out with great GCSEs when all your mates come from troubled backgrounds are ill disciplined don’t have respect and don’t want to learn.
Why make it harder for your kids to at least have the opportunity to do well?
Private education doesn’t guarantee success if the kid isn’t bright. A lad from where I grew up went to private school. He left with no qualifications, because he was just thick. No shame in being non academic, but I can’t help but think that had he gone to a state school if folks would have saved a bundle of cash and there may have been practical courses he’d have found useful.
I fear for my six year old niece. She’s my sister in laws kid and appears very bright. Top of her class in reading and maths. Her mum works hard, very hard. She’s bought her own home and is doing her very best. Sadly she lives in a dead end town devoid of hope and opportunity. I have collected the little girl from school a couple of times and have stood at the school gates with the “Mams” many of whom arrived in night clothes to pick up Demi-Lee, Tyler Jayden etc. Some decent folks there too, it has to be said.
What chance does my niece really have with contemporaries like this? As she gets older being a chav will be the norm. Kicking around in a run down coastal town where there is little hope and no dreams. She’s going to have to demonstrate exceptional resolve, resilience and commitment if she’s to come out of the education system with good qualifications. She will need to be the exception to the norm. My wife managed it. Coming from the same town which it has to be said was maybe a better place 20-30 years ago. She’s done brilliantly with post grad qualifications and a great career. But she’s a fighter. She instinctively goes against the norm. She liked being one of the 3 kids from her year who went on to 6th form and got out of the dead end town ASAP.
So what about my niece’S education? Either move to a better town which her mum can’t afford to do or won’t do or private school which she can’t afford. I have considered suggesting some sort of fiddle where we get her into our generally rather good local state school here. There is also a pretty good chance my wife’s side of the family are going to inherit a couple of hundred thousand in the next couple of years. I know my wife would happily forego her share to put with the rest to fund a private education.
All this is a rather long winded way of saying the decision about private or state is unique to every kid.
I went to a fantastic state school, and I have two degrees post graduate and professional qualifications. I’ve not done badly in life.
A close friend the same age went to a top private school. He is a millionaire, with two stellar careers behind him. One being in the military.
We grew up in the same road, our family and social backgrounds are similar. Is his success down to the education or the fact that he’s brighter and more switched on than me? It’s the latter.
I think where state school fails is when the catchment area it covers tends to have more families with social problems. Peer group pressure and a general ethos to do well was important to me and I found school life pretty easy. It’s got to be harder coming out with great GCSEs when all your mates come from troubled backgrounds are ill disciplined don’t have respect and don’t want to learn.
Why make it harder for your kids to at least have the opportunity to do well?
Private education doesn’t guarantee success if the kid isn’t bright. A lad from where I grew up went to private school. He left with no qualifications, because he was just thick. No shame in being non academic, but I can’t help but think that had he gone to a state school if folks would have saved a bundle of cash and there may have been practical courses he’d have found useful.
I fear for my six year old niece. She’s my sister in laws kid and appears very bright. Top of her class in reading and maths. Her mum works hard, very hard. She’s bought her own home and is doing her very best. Sadly she lives in a dead end town devoid of hope and opportunity. I have collected the little girl from school a couple of times and have stood at the school gates with the “Mams” many of whom arrived in night clothes to pick up Demi-Lee, Tyler Jayden etc. Some decent folks there too, it has to be said.
What chance does my niece really have with contemporaries like this? As she gets older being a chav will be the norm. Kicking around in a run down coastal town where there is little hope and no dreams. She’s going to have to demonstrate exceptional resolve, resilience and commitment if she’s to come out of the education system with good qualifications. She will need to be the exception to the norm. My wife managed it. Coming from the same town which it has to be said was maybe a better place 20-30 years ago. She’s done brilliantly with post grad qualifications and a great career. But she’s a fighter. She instinctively goes against the norm. She liked being one of the 3 kids from her year who went on to 6th form and got out of the dead end town ASAP.
So what about my niece’S education? Either move to a better town which her mum can’t afford to do or won’t do or private school which she can’t afford. I have considered suggesting some sort of fiddle where we get her into our generally rather good local state school here. There is also a pretty good chance my wife’s side of the family are going to inherit a couple of hundred thousand in the next couple of years. I know my wife would happily forego her share to put with the rest to fund a private education.
All this is a rather long winded way of saying the decision about private or state is unique to every kid.
AstonZagato said:
brickwall said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
The other thing we are seeing with the offspring of my brothers and friends is that, whereas 10+ years ago they would have gone to Oxbridge, now they are going to university overseas. Just within our circle of friends, we know people with children at Berkely, MIT, Yale, Aarhus, Leiden, Vlerick and the Sorbonne
Yup.The US universities in particular are being pretty active in targeting this group. Not least because many of the US unis take a more ‘rounded’ picture in admissions where Oxbridge only cares about academics. So all the co-curricular stuff that private schools are so good at can really help in an Ivy League application where it counts for nothing in an Oxbridge one.
And as for the cost - For parents sending kids to private school:
- If you’re very wealthy then the difference between UK and US fees isn’t a problem
- If you’re not very wealthy (but still paying for private schools), then the thresholds for financial aid at some US universities is sufficiently high that even higher-earning professionals may still qualify for some help
ClaphamGT3 said:
You don't have to go that far up the pecking order. My old - very ordinary - private school decided about 20 years ago that it was going to become the country's leading school for Tennis (God knows why it chose Tennis, but it did). It spent millions on building world leading year-round tennis facilities and millions more on endowing tennis scholarships. It now habitually sends at least half a dozen kids a year to top American universities on full tennis scholarships.
Yes, my one did the same with tennis almost 40 years ago, and then more recently hockey. Looking at the facilities the school has now, it makes what we used look like something from the medieval ages. Although saying that the hallowed cricket square was supposedly better than the county ground.I was excellently average at everything, enjoyed myself thoroughly and gained a remarkable sense of independence. My father let me smuggle a car into school for the last few weeks and after it all ended, I didn't go home for a month.
Wildcat45 said:
Like a lot of things, it depends .
I went to a fantastic state school, and I have two degrees post graduate and professional qualifications. I’ve not done badly in life.
A close friend the same age went to a top private school. He is a millionaire, with two stellar careers behind him. One being in the military.
We grew up in the same road, our family and social backgrounds are similar. Is his success down to the education or the fact that he’s brighter and more switched on than me? It’s the latter.
I think where state school fails is when the catchment area it covers tends to have more families with social problems. Peer group pressure and a general ethos to do well was important to me and I found school life pretty easy. It’s got to be harder coming out with great GCSEs when all your mates come from troubled backgrounds are ill disciplined don’t have respect and don’t want to learn.
Why make it harder for your kids to at least have the opportunity to do well?
Private education doesn’t guarantee success if the kid isn’t bright. A lad from where I grew up went to private school. He left with no qualifications, because he was just thick. No shame in being non academic, but I can’t help but think that had he gone to a state school if folks would have saved a bundle of cash and there may have been practical courses he’d have found useful.
I fear for my six year old niece. She’s my sister in laws kid and appears very bright. Top of her class in reading and maths. Her mum works hard, very hard. She’s bought her own home and is doing her very best. Sadly she lives in a dead end town devoid of hope and opportunity. I have collected the little girl from school a couple of times and have stood at the school gates with the “Mams” many of whom arrived in night clothes to pick up Demi-Lee, Tyler Jayden etc. Some decent folks there too, it has to be said.
What chance does my niece really have with contemporaries like this? As she gets older being a chav will be the norm. Kicking around in a run down coastal town where there is little hope and no dreams. She’s going to have to demonstrate exceptional resolve, resilience and commitment if she’s to come out of the education system with good qualifications. She will need to be the exception to the norm. My wife managed it. Coming from the same town which it has to be said was maybe a better place 20-30 years ago. She’s done brilliantly with post grad qualifications and a great career. But she’s a fighter. She instinctively goes against the norm. She liked being one of the 3 kids from her year who went on to 6th form and got out of the dead end town ASAP.
So what about my niece’S education? Either move to a better town which her mum can’t afford to do or won’t do or private school which she can’t afford. I have considered suggesting some sort of fiddle where we get her into our generally rather good local state school here. There is also a pretty good chance my wife’s side of the family are going to inherit a couple of hundred thousand in the next couple of years. I know my wife would happily forego her share to put with the rest to fund a private education.
All this is a rather long winded way of saying the decision about private or state is unique to every kid.
What you've described isn't even reserved for the more shabby parts of the UK, my secondary school was in a very wealthy Hampshire village, even there you had folk from the rougher (I laugh now having seen what Brixton's version of rough is vs Hants) areas that were never going to go on to to anything, lots of teen pregnancy, traveller type families etc. It happens everywhere. I suppose the difference is that there were success stories (Justin Rose and a fairly recent MP (not the landed gentry type) went to my school) that you could see. A state school in the wrong part of South London is going to have none of that and being in a gang, or a rapper is the hope of a lot of kids, not great. I went to a fantastic state school, and I have two degrees post graduate and professional qualifications. I’ve not done badly in life.
A close friend the same age went to a top private school. He is a millionaire, with two stellar careers behind him. One being in the military.
We grew up in the same road, our family and social backgrounds are similar. Is his success down to the education or the fact that he’s brighter and more switched on than me? It’s the latter.
I think where state school fails is when the catchment area it covers tends to have more families with social problems. Peer group pressure and a general ethos to do well was important to me and I found school life pretty easy. It’s got to be harder coming out with great GCSEs when all your mates come from troubled backgrounds are ill disciplined don’t have respect and don’t want to learn.
Why make it harder for your kids to at least have the opportunity to do well?
Private education doesn’t guarantee success if the kid isn’t bright. A lad from where I grew up went to private school. He left with no qualifications, because he was just thick. No shame in being non academic, but I can’t help but think that had he gone to a state school if folks would have saved a bundle of cash and there may have been practical courses he’d have found useful.
I fear for my six year old niece. She’s my sister in laws kid and appears very bright. Top of her class in reading and maths. Her mum works hard, very hard. She’s bought her own home and is doing her very best. Sadly she lives in a dead end town devoid of hope and opportunity. I have collected the little girl from school a couple of times and have stood at the school gates with the “Mams” many of whom arrived in night clothes to pick up Demi-Lee, Tyler Jayden etc. Some decent folks there too, it has to be said.
What chance does my niece really have with contemporaries like this? As she gets older being a chav will be the norm. Kicking around in a run down coastal town where there is little hope and no dreams. She’s going to have to demonstrate exceptional resolve, resilience and commitment if she’s to come out of the education system with good qualifications. She will need to be the exception to the norm. My wife managed it. Coming from the same town which it has to be said was maybe a better place 20-30 years ago. She’s done brilliantly with post grad qualifications and a great career. But she’s a fighter. She instinctively goes against the norm. She liked being one of the 3 kids from her year who went on to 6th form and got out of the dead end town ASAP.
So what about my niece’S education? Either move to a better town which her mum can’t afford to do or won’t do or private school which she can’t afford. I have considered suggesting some sort of fiddle where we get her into our generally rather good local state school here. There is also a pretty good chance my wife’s side of the family are going to inherit a couple of hundred thousand in the next couple of years. I know my wife would happily forego her share to put with the rest to fund a private education.
All this is a rather long winded way of saying the decision about private or state is unique to every kid.
While I get I'm the one asking questions of people, it has to be said, why doesn't your sister in law think about scholarships/bursaries etc (I think the difference is one is attached to merit in a subject, the other financial status?)? If the child is very smart, and they don't have much money, isn't this exactly what great schools will offer for people like that? Or a grammar of course if that is such a thing locally?
Both ours are at private schools, I don't give a stuff if they go to oxbridge or even to uni, as long as we can give them the best start in life and the ability to experience all the things these schools have to offer then its worth it in my eyes. After expereincing the state system with my step daughters we were even more determined to send them private, good pupils will do well at good state schools, but in our experience the ones who need help just drop through the cracks.
And yes i went to private school, and yes, my spelling and grammer are crap..
And yes i went to private school, and yes, my spelling and grammer are crap..
Vixpy1 said:
Both ours are at private schools, I don't give a stuff if they go to oxbridge or even to uni, as long as we can give them the best start in life and the ability to experience all the things these schools have to offer then its worth it in my eyes. After expereincing the state system with my step daughters we were even more determined to send them private, good pupils will do well at good state schools, but in our experience the ones who need help just drop through the cracks.
And yes i went to private school, and yes, my spelling and grammer are crap..
That’s my view too. I brought some kids into the world so it’s my responsibility to give them the best education and opportunities I can, if the private schools are better than the local state schools then I’d do that, if I can afford it.And yes i went to private school, and yes, my spelling and grammer are crap..
To me, It’s not about getting into oxbridge or even just academic results, it’s about growing up in an environment where they have more opportunity to experience different things and an expectation based on the varied backgrounds of the other kids and their parents and aren’t limited by their own parents outlook.
It’s sometimes an emotive subject though as most parents want to do ‘the best’ for their kids but either view things differently regarding state/private education or are limited by their financial situation.
okgo said:
What you've described isn't even reserved for the more shabby parts of the UK, my secondary school was in a very wealthy Hampshire village, even there you had folk from the rougher (I laugh now having seen what Brixton's version of rough is vs Hants) areas that were never going to go on to to anything, lots of teen pregnancy, traveller type families etc. It happens everywhere. I suppose the difference is that there were success stories (Justin Rose and a fairly recent MP (not the landed gentry type) went to my school) that you could see. A state school in the wrong part of South London is going to have none of that and being in a gang, or a rapper is the hope of a lot of kids, not great.
While I get I'm the one asking questions of people, it has to be said, why doesn't your sister in law think about scholarships/bursaries etc (I think the difference is one is attached to merit in a subject, the other financial status?)? If the child is very smart, and they don't have much money, isn't this exactly what great schools will offer for people like that? Or a grammar of course if that is such a thing locally?
That's something I will look into. I'd not considered it.While I get I'm the one asking questions of people, it has to be said, why doesn't your sister in law think about scholarships/bursaries etc (I think the difference is one is attached to merit in a subject, the other financial status?)? If the child is very smart, and they don't have much money, isn't this exactly what great schools will offer for people like that? Or a grammar of course if that is such a thing locally?
I think my Sis in Law doesn't quite get it. She's a great person but seems content to be slightly above those who live in the town - having a job, her own home in her 20s etc. She's mid 30s now and only decided to become a mum once she'd bought the house, and secured a good job. She's not a high flier. I get the impression that she's done enough because she has done more than many of her peers. Fish and ponds. A very odd situation, not helped by her partner being less than motivated to put it politely. But even he - with his dislike of work - is bringing the girl up well. She gets all the correct social cues from him, table manners and the like.
Slightly off topic, but I don't think a lot of people understand social mobility these days. They may be into earning money, but not as my grandfather did, start from way back in the pack, but by various means ended up a respected and educated man - with the accumulated wealth a bonus. He was determined not to have his kids grow up in a Lancashire mill town, so moved and moved and adapted to finally bring up his family (My Dad was older and was doing National Service in the UK) as Americans in Mid-West USA of the 1950s.
She is well qualified and experienced in her job and by all accounts appreciated by her employers, yet she told me recently that she turned down promotion from being a deputy manager to being a boss because she didn't want the extra hassle.
It isn't for me to preach to her, each to their own, but I would have thought that with cash being tight and with a bright little girl on her hands she would do all she can to improve her life chances. She's built her daughter a secure loving home. House with a garden, pets, books and close bonds with family members. All well and good, but when she's 13 and hanging round the closed down shopping precinct with Jayden - and hopefully not getting up the duff - I fear all that won't matter to her. Not to say she couldn't get in with a wrong'un at a posh school. My cousin had thousands spent on her education but still ended up a 16 year old mum after a fling with one of the local village lads.
Its just life chances. I don't get that whatever your means or station in life, that you'd not want to at least try to get your child the best shot at getting the most out of life.
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