Daftest stuff said on PH which isn't really true
Discussion
Kermit power said:
Caddyshack said:
Cotty said:
Caddyshack said:
Zarco said:
Counter steering doesn't exist (when riding a motorcycle).
I think that is because counter steering in a car (we are in a car forum) is steering in to a skid / sliding whereas on a motorbike you do it to initiate a turn or to increase the steering input mid bend. Whilst you can steer in to a skid on a bike that is more off-roading as it has probably gone very wrong on the road if you have to do that and you are prob on the way to a high-side.I just assumed it was mainly done on a race track or by some who has huge bike control otherwise you could end up high siding when it snaps back.
In the motorbike world is about pushing the handle bar the way you want to turn, be it slow or fast speed manoeuvres.
When you want to turn from the straight ahead you push the bar and the bike flips in to the bend…it’s a weird concept but it isn’t to do with correcting a slide or making a car go sideways so it causes confusion.
Whether on a motorbike or a pushbike, at very slow speeds you'd turn the bars into the turn and the friction between the front tyre and the ground does the job of turning the bike in that direction.
At any higher speed, you'd turn the bars slightly away from the direction you want to steer, which causes you and the bike to lean into the turn, and the force on both tyres then takes you through the bend in the direction you're leaning, not the direction you're pointing the bars.
This is why you shouldn't teach kids to ride bikes with stabilisers. You can't lean a bike with stabilisers, so they always have to angle the bars into the turn and depend on the outside stabiliser keeping them from highsiding, meaning that once you remove the stabilisers they suddenly have to learn how to ride again with counter-steering.
Even when doing 5-10mph on a bike you still counter steer to initiate a fast change of direction (as taught for Mod 1 on the test for the high speed lane change, the slow speed cone slalom and the turn in the road) - yes, if at walking pace you would turn the bars the way you want to go...but the POINT remains that the car term of counter steer is different to a bike counter steer and that is why people probably think counter steer on a bike is not real.
98elise said:
akirk said:
Tam_Mullen said:
essayer said:
The driving other cars entitlement on your insurance requires the other car to have insurance
That is exactly what my insurance wording says, I just checked it, are you saying its wrong? I had best let them know! I have had insurance where it was a condition, and also insurance where it was not...
otherman said:
98elise said:
akirk said:
Tam_Mullen said:
essayer said:
The driving other cars entitlement on your insurance requires the other car to have insurance
That is exactly what my insurance wording says, I just checked it, are you saying its wrong? I had best let them know! I have had insurance where it was a condition, and also insurance where it was not...
Caddyshack said:
Many racers do slide but the counter steer term
In the motorbike world is about pushing the handle bar the way you want to turn, be it slow or fast speed manoeuvres.
When you want to turn from the straight ahead you push the bar and the bike flips in to the bend…it’s a weird concept but it isn’t to do with correcting a slide or making a car go sideways so it causes confusion.
You push the inside handlebar slightly - so if it's a left turn, you nudge gently forwards on the left bar grip. This of course twists the handlebars, and with it the front wheel, slightly to the right, but the bike then drops down leftwards and turns that way. Hence the term 'counter' steering.In the motorbike world is about pushing the handle bar the way you want to turn, be it slow or fast speed manoeuvres.
When you want to turn from the straight ahead you push the bar and the bike flips in to the bend…it’s a weird concept but it isn’t to do with correcting a slide or making a car go sideways so it causes confusion.
It works because the only thing in contact with the road is the very bottom of the tyres. If you turn the bars slightly to the right, then the grip on the road causes the bike to initially steer that way, but because of inertia from the mass of the bike and rider, the rest of the bike tries to stay where it is - so effectively you pull the bottom of the bike out to the right, and gravity means the bike starts leaning to the left. Once leaning left, the geometry of the steering system means the bars are then pulled to the left and the front tyre leads the bike around the corner turned the way you'd expect. So, a quick and gentle nudge on the 'wrong' side of the bars causes it to drop down and turn towards that side. It's an extremely effective way of initiating a turn.
If you look down at a motorcycles steering from the top, you'll notice that the two fork tubes are set forwards of the headstock, which is where they attach to the front of the frame. This means that if you follow the line of the forks downwards, the point at which that line hits the ground is slightly ahead of the lowest point of the tyre. This distance, called the trail, is what forces the steering to turn left when leaning the bike to the left. The more trail the greater the effect, and is one of the most fundamental parts of the geometry of a bike frame and suspension. You see the same on a bicycle, without front suspension there is a forwards curve in the front forks which serves the same purpose, and if there is front suspension you'll see the top forms a sort of shallow triangle.
otherman said:
98elise said:
akirk said:
Tam_Mullen said:
essayer said:
The driving other cars entitlement on your insurance requires the other car to have insurance
That is exactly what my insurance wording says, I just checked it, are you saying its wrong? I had best let them know! I have had insurance where it was a condition, and also insurance where it was not...
It also says it can't be your car so they have thought of your cunning plan.
All this discussion of motorcycles makes me think of the old distinction between boats and ships.
A boat leans in to a turn …
… but a ship leans out.
I’ve never understood that one either.
Perhaps those with knowledge of bike racing will be able to answer this one, too. I think that in the good old days racers used to lean the bike into a corner and then sit on top, on the high side. Of course, now the bike is kept as upright as possible and the rider climbs down the inside, hanging on by a leg. When did the change happen, and who initiated it?
A boat leans in to a turn …
… but a ship leans out.
I’ve never understood that one either.
Perhaps those with knowledge of bike racing will be able to answer this one, too. I think that in the good old days racers used to lean the bike into a corner and then sit on top, on the high side. Of course, now the bike is kept as upright as possible and the rider climbs down the inside, hanging on by a leg. When did the change happen, and who initiated it?
Roofless Toothless said:
All this discussion of motorcycles makes me think of the old distinction between boats and ships.
A boat leans in to a turn …
… but a ship leans out.
I’ve never understood that one either.
Perhaps those with knowledge of bike racing will be able to answer this one, too. I think that in the good old days racers used to lean the bike into a corner and then sit on top, on the high side. Of course, now the bike is kept as upright as possible and the rider climbs down the inside, hanging on by a leg. When did the change happen, and who initiated it?
Never noticed or thought about this one.A boat leans in to a turn …
… but a ship leans out.
I’ve never understood that one either.
Perhaps those with knowledge of bike racing will be able to answer this one, too. I think that in the good old days racers used to lean the bike into a corner and then sit on top, on the high side. Of course, now the bike is kept as upright as possible and the rider climbs down the inside, hanging on by a leg. When did the change happen, and who initiated it?
Maybe something to do with the upper weight of the ship meaning that there isn't an option for it to lean in, the momentum and weight distribution makes it lean over and maybe has a relation to if the boat / ship has a big Keel or not? I am off to do some googling.
I was on the right track:
Answer and Explanation: Leaning in or leaning out is a result of the vessel's rudder's position relative to the keel. If the rudder is ABOVE the keel, the vessel will LEAN OUT; if the rudder is BELOW the keel, the vessel will LEAN IN.
When a ship's rudder is put over, the forces on the rudder act outwards. Since the rudder is below the centre of gravity, the ship develops a small angle of heel inwards. As the ship turns, the centripetal force acting on the underwater body caused the ship to heel outwards
Answer and Explanation: Leaning in or leaning out is a result of the vessel's rudder's position relative to the keel. If the rudder is ABOVE the keel, the vessel will LEAN OUT; if the rudder is BELOW the keel, the vessel will LEAN IN.
When a ship's rudder is put over, the forces on the rudder act outwards. Since the rudder is below the centre of gravity, the ship develops a small angle of heel inwards. As the ship turns, the centripetal force acting on the underwater body caused the ship to heel outwards
Why do some ships lean into turns while other boats lean to the outside of turns?
It depends on if the boat is traveling through the water or over the water.
First its worth noting that the position of the rudder (or steerable thrust) is below the center of gravity so when the rudder is deflected to turn the vessel a portion of the force generated is also trying to roll the vessel around the center of gravity in a way that would cause the vessel to lean into the turn.
For a hull traveling through the water, other forces are at play so this lean in is not possoble and the vessel heels to the outside of the turn the same way that a car does.
The bow of such a vessel will be underwater throughout the turn. As the vessel turns, the direction of the force of drag also turns and begins to act more heavily on the side of the boat underwater on the outside of the turn.
The part of the vessel above the water is full of momentum and trying to ignor the turn and continue in a straight line. Straight over the part of the hull that is underwater and thus toward the outside of the turn.
The force shift is far more significant than the rolling moment given by the rudder so these vessels lean to the outside of the turn.
When a vessel is traveling over the water that force shift at the bow doesnt happen because the bow is out of the water and the hull is skimming the aurface on the after 1/3 to 2/3 of the hull length. So the effect of the rudder (or steerable thrust) can easily heel the boat to the inside of the turn and these vessels lean in.
Some such vessels use devices that ‘catch’ the water as the hull leans in, increasing drag on the inside of the turn and reducing the turn radius, with the cost of a greater speed reduction through the turn.
In all of the above cases the amount the vessel heels is determined by the stability curve for its hull design and trim condition.
It depends on if the boat is traveling through the water or over the water.
First its worth noting that the position of the rudder (or steerable thrust) is below the center of gravity so when the rudder is deflected to turn the vessel a portion of the force generated is also trying to roll the vessel around the center of gravity in a way that would cause the vessel to lean into the turn.
For a hull traveling through the water, other forces are at play so this lean in is not possoble and the vessel heels to the outside of the turn the same way that a car does.
The bow of such a vessel will be underwater throughout the turn. As the vessel turns, the direction of the force of drag also turns and begins to act more heavily on the side of the boat underwater on the outside of the turn.
The part of the vessel above the water is full of momentum and trying to ignor the turn and continue in a straight line. Straight over the part of the hull that is underwater and thus toward the outside of the turn.
The force shift is far more significant than the rolling moment given by the rudder so these vessels lean to the outside of the turn.
When a vessel is traveling over the water that force shift at the bow doesnt happen because the bow is out of the water and the hull is skimming the aurface on the after 1/3 to 2/3 of the hull length. So the effect of the rudder (or steerable thrust) can easily heel the boat to the inside of the turn and these vessels lean in.
Some such vessels use devices that ‘catch’ the water as the hull leans in, increasing drag on the inside of the turn and reducing the turn radius, with the cost of a greater speed reduction through the turn.
In all of the above cases the amount the vessel heels is determined by the stability curve for its hull design and trim condition.
Roofless Toothless said:
All this discussion of motorcycles makes me think of the old distinction between boats and ships.
A boat leans in to a turn …
… but a ship leans out.
I’ve never understood that one either.
Perhaps those with knowledge of bike racing will be able to answer this one, too. I think that in the good old days racers used to lean the bike into a corner and then sit on top, on the high side. Of course, now the bike is kept as upright as possible and the rider climbs down the inside, hanging on by a leg. When did the change happen, and who initiated it?
Planing vs displacement speed.A boat leans in to a turn …
… but a ship leans out.
I’ve never understood that one either.
Perhaps those with knowledge of bike racing will be able to answer this one, too. I think that in the good old days racers used to lean the bike into a corner and then sit on top, on the high side. Of course, now the bike is kept as upright as possible and the rider climbs down the inside, hanging on by a leg. When did the change happen, and who initiated it?
Planing - skimming on the surface = heels into the turn like a bike would.
Displacement = heels out of the turn.
mikey_b said:
Caddyshack said:
Many racers do slide but the counter steer term
In the motorbike world is about pushing the handle bar the way you want to turn, be it slow or fast speed manoeuvres.
When you want to turn from the straight ahead you push the bar and the bike flips in to the bend…it’s a weird concept but it isn’t to do with correcting a slide or making a car go sideways so it causes confusion.
You push the inside handlebar slightly - so if it's a left turn, you nudge gently forwards on the left bar grip. This of course twists the handlebars, and with it the front wheel, slightly to the right, but the bike then drops down leftwards and turns that way. Hence the term 'counter' steering.In the motorbike world is about pushing the handle bar the way you want to turn, be it slow or fast speed manoeuvres.
When you want to turn from the straight ahead you push the bar and the bike flips in to the bend…it’s a weird concept but it isn’t to do with correcting a slide or making a car go sideways so it causes confusion.
It works because the only thing in contact with the road is the very bottom of the tyres. If you turn the bars slightly to the right, then the grip on the road causes the bike to initially steer that way, but because of inertia from the mass of the bike and rider, the rest of the bike tries to stay where it is - so effectively you pull the bottom of the bike out to the right, and gravity means the bike starts leaning to the left. Once leaning left, the geometry of the steering system means the bars are then pulled to the left and the front tyre leads the bike around the corner turned the way you'd expect. So, a quick and gentle nudge on the 'wrong' side of the bars causes it to drop down and turn towards that side. It's an extremely effective way of initiating a turn.
If you look down at a motorcycles steering from the top, you'll notice that the two fork tubes are set forwards of the headstock, which is where they attach to the front of the frame. This means that if you follow the line of the forks downwards, the point at which that line hits the ground is slightly ahead of the lowest point of the tyre. This distance, called the trail, is what forces the steering to turn left when leaning the bike to the left. The more trail the greater the effect, and is one of the most fundamental parts of the geometry of a bike frame and suspension. You see the same on a bicycle, without front suspension there is a forwards curve in the front forks which serves the same purpose, and if there is front suspension you'll see the top forms a sort of shallow triangle.
I tended to spend my early years riding a bicycle with no hands on the handlebars. I have a photo of riding to school on a claud butler gan sport while reading a book. No one can tell me that to initiate a turn on the bike I had to push the opposite handlebar, or that the bike was incapable of making its way into a corner without the handlebar imperceptibly making an opposite move then moving in the direction to take the corner by itself.
I do think on a motorcycle especially while pushing on you can initiate a much faster turn by pushing on the opposite handlebar because it forces the bike to fall into the turn and you naturally correct that, so a quick push on the inside handlebar is good for that, but you do have to realise you are destabilising the bike into a corner and its not the thing to do while on the edge of traction.
When I was teaching my sons to ride bikes the instructor told them to do it on every turn and they came to me to protest that it didn't feel right. I told them to ignore the instructor and do what felt natural.
I think the that counter steering has a place, but if it is part of the physics of making a turn then it doesn't need to be taught as a conscious movement, and certainly not lauded as seems to be the current fashion IMHO.
julian64 said:
mikey_b said:
Caddyshack said:
Many racers do slide but the counter steer term
In the motorbike world is about pushing the handle bar the way you want to turn, be it slow or fast speed manoeuvres.
When you want to turn from the straight ahead you push the bar and the bike flips in to the bend…it’s a weird concept but it isn’t to do with correcting a slide or making a car go sideways so it causes confusion.
You push the inside handlebar slightly - so if it's a left turn, you nudge gently forwards on the left bar grip. This of course twists the handlebars, and with it the front wheel, slightly to the right, but the bike then drops down leftwards and turns that way. Hence the term 'counter' steering.In the motorbike world is about pushing the handle bar the way you want to turn, be it slow or fast speed manoeuvres.
When you want to turn from the straight ahead you push the bar and the bike flips in to the bend…it’s a weird concept but it isn’t to do with correcting a slide or making a car go sideways so it causes confusion.
It works because the only thing in contact with the road is the very bottom of the tyres. If you turn the bars slightly to the right, then the grip on the road causes the bike to initially steer that way, but because of inertia from the mass of the bike and rider, the rest of the bike tries to stay where it is - so effectively you pull the bottom of the bike out to the right, and gravity means the bike starts leaning to the left. Once leaning left, the geometry of the steering system means the bars are then pulled to the left and the front tyre leads the bike around the corner turned the way you'd expect. So, a quick and gentle nudge on the 'wrong' side of the bars causes it to drop down and turn towards that side. It's an extremely effective way of initiating a turn.
If you look down at a motorcycles steering from the top, you'll notice that the two fork tubes are set forwards of the headstock, which is where they attach to the front of the frame. This means that if you follow the line of the forks downwards, the point at which that line hits the ground is slightly ahead of the lowest point of the tyre. This distance, called the trail, is what forces the steering to turn left when leaning the bike to the left. The more trail the greater the effect, and is one of the most fundamental parts of the geometry of a bike frame and suspension. You see the same on a bicycle, without front suspension there is a forwards curve in the front forks which serves the same purpose, and if there is front suspension you'll see the top forms a sort of shallow triangle.
I tended to spend my early years riding a bicycle with no hands on the handlebars. I have a photo of riding to school on a claud butler gan sport while reading a book. No one can tell me that to initiate a turn on the bike I had to push the opposite handlebar, or that the bike was incapable of making its way into a corner without the handlebar imperceptibly making an opposite move then moving in the direction to take the corner by itself.
I do think on a motorcycle especially while pushing on you can initiate a much faster turn by pushing on the opposite handlebar because it forces the bike to fall into the turn and you naturally correct that, so a quick push on the inside handlebar is good for that, but you do have to realise you are destabilising the bike into a corner and its not the thing to do while on the edge of traction.
When I was teaching my sons to ride bikes the instructor told them to do it on every turn and they came to me to protest that it didn't feel right. I told them to ignore the instructor and do what felt natural.
I think the that counter steering has a place, but if it is part of the physics of making a turn then it doesn't need to be taught as a conscious movement, and certainly not lauded as seems to be the current fashion IMHO.
Caddyshack said:
I had my first motorbike at age 10 (TY80), I had a road bike from 16 then a 125 at 17 then found cars...I kept dipping in and out with 125's for green laning, motorcross and then CBT 125's. It was only in my later years on a MITO with 30hp that I started to experiment with counter steer but then on my full bike test in my 40's I was taught to always use counter steer and I did find it to be a bit of a revelation as I had previously found it hard to make the bike turn. My riding style now on sports 600 is to countersteer.
Yep its definitely the fashionable thing currently. I've always been on litre sports bikes since the minute I could afford them in the eighties. just like the riding position. Used to object to steering dampers until they became ubiquitous. I once remember an interview with barry sheene where he ridiculed people leaning off their bikes as showy, and talking about steering the bike around corners with his knees. both completely counter to what would be considered normal now. I guess with every age comes a new philosophy and a new confidence that the subjects been nailed. However I still think you do what seems to suit you after trying everythign suggested..
POIDH said:
Planing vs displacement speed.
Planing - skimming on the surface = heels into the turn like a bike would.
Displacement = heels out of the turn.
A small boat like a RIB will still lean in to powered turns when not on the plane, as you're turning the prop, which is below the centre of mass, rather than having a rudder.Planing - skimming on the surface = heels into the turn like a bike would.
Displacement = heels out of the turn.
julian64 said:
I have to admit I tend to disagree with the idea of counter steering, especially when directed at new riders. I think the truth is that the physics of riding a bicycle or motorcycle aren't well understood, and not just by me. If you look at places like the Californian bike school they are treat it like a revelation, and have a demo of a bike showing a curve is impossible without it, but it is quite contrived.
I don't know about contrived but this video demonstrates that if you can't steer to the left, you can't turn right:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNmUNHSBac
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