When child abuse isn't child abuse?
Discussion
DrTre said:
Back to the OP though...I can certainly see your point but, playing devils avocado, could it not be taken by some as "nanny state interference"? Where does that label begin and end?
Could be seen as that, true. I guess it would be difficult to enforce or prosecute the over-feeding or the smoking whilst pregnant deals, but making holes in small children who can't even speak to object is fairly black and white IMO.Tiggsy said:
asbo said:
Tiggsy said:
chippy17 said:
smacking; the lack of smacking/'clip round the ear' is part of what has turned our children into disaffected disrespectful oiks
no it's not.....THINK it through.there are plenty of middle class families that dont smack and the kids are fine. Mine are hardly ever smacked, and i mean almost never, and they are fine.......however, you go and find some of these nasty "oiks" you refer to and i'll bet they HAVE been smacked - in fact, i would suggest the level of smacking rises as the quality of the kids on the streets falls.......all smacking does is teaches kids that hitting out is an acceptable punishment. It's primary benefit to the adult is to make them feel better/vent. Go talk to some of the knife carrying thugs on the street and the odds are they have seen the business end of their dads/stepdads/mums boyfrineds belt plenty!
However, the reality is that MANY people will state they dont smack their kids and they are fine (me, for one)....so anyone saying they do smack their kids and they are fine is in a potentially pointless group of opinions - they could also say they feed the kids pasta and they are fine so it must be the pasta. It's the same daft notion of "i was smacked and i'm ok"....so what? Are you saying that if you werent smacked you be a hoodie????
However, what you find is many people saying "i didnt smack my kids and now they are little s
ts"....in contrast, it's no secret that theres a link between violence in the home and being violent....to assume that when the violence is wound down theres a sudden cut off at which point it no longer affects people is naive at best.ts who could have done with a clip round the ear.It seems beyond consequence that most of the most ignorant little b
ds I've ever come across have had no discipline from their parents, and they most respectful have had discipline in one form or another. I have many friends who are teachers and only a couple of them disagree that since they've been neutered in their forms of discipline, the kids have got out of control. Your kids may not have needed it, congratulations. Other kids do need it, and would be better off with it.
Tiggsy said:
Cara Van Man said:
So don't preach to me that a small smack or a clip around the ear is abuse. It's not.
Getting kicked until you piss yourself is.
Not preaching - just asking what the point is of smacking. I just cant see what you think it achieves that alternatives dont. Still waiting for ANYONE to explain why a smack is better...whether its light or hard, fist or palm, finger, foot..whatever!Getting kicked until you piss yourself is.
I quite clearly explained that the threat of a smack is a good (wrong choice of word) weapon to have in a parents armoury.
My 5 year old will more often than not back down at the first mention of a smack, without me doing it.
however, If I need to do it, I will.....and it won't be through anger or loss of control, it will be be a way of her making conform to type the behaviour I expect. It works. Therefore, it's not pointless. It serves a purpose.
Edited by Cara Van Man on Friday 12th June 13:48
Cara Van Man said:
Tiggsy said:
a light smack on the back of the leg? what does that do then? whats your objective? are you just lashing out to make yourself feel better (that the only reason i can see that i would do it) or do you belive its a better punishmnet that the non phsical alteratives...and why? is it because it's quick and easy....do you want them to fear it as the ultimate punishment (because i can guarantee you mine would take a "light smack" over 100 lines and no TV in the blink of an eye!)
You don't seem to be able to differentiate between discipline and violence.How odd. You accuse people of lashing out, when they have quite cleasrly explained that a 'light tap on the legs' can be used effectively as a way of disciplining a child.
I rarely smack my daughter, but if I have tried all means possible to correct her behaviour and they have failed, I will threaten her with a smacked bum. The mere threat often works. It's a good last resort for a parent to have in their 'armoury' as long as it's controlled and not because of anger.
I know the difference between discipline and abuse. I've been there in ways you've probably not encountered.
So don't preach to me that a small smack or a clip around the ear is abuse. It's not.
Getting kicked until you piss yourself is.
It is always the poor argument used by the "liberals" (who think of children just as short adults rather than children who need to know where the boundaries are) where they link an example of extreme violence with one of minor chastisement to prove their case.
One of the key rules to punishment of any type is to be clear and consistent. Parents who lash out because they are in a bad mood do not give clear signals of right or wrong and their children will most likely feel free to behave in any way they wish depending on their mood as well.
Society as a whole appears to be becoming selfish rather than selfless..... or is it just that people are more open about it?
The trick is to beat your kids senseless in the garden then throw them on the trampoline and give them an ice cream. Everyone thinks your playfighting so no SS involvement and you get to feel like he-man because you've just thrown someone 15 feet. Works better after 10 pints of Stella too.
Quick query....
After reading this thread and this one:
http://pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Are Tiggsy and supermono related or the same person, its the same type of frustrating 'I only see it my way and you are all wrong till their is concrete evidence otherwise and even thy I may just ignore it'.... very strange.
Maybe we have someones doppleganger in the fold.
After reading this thread and this one:
http://pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Are Tiggsy and supermono related or the same person, its the same type of frustrating 'I only see it my way and you are all wrong till their is concrete evidence otherwise and even thy I may just ignore it'.... very strange.
Maybe we have someones doppleganger in the fold.
None of my family (me, brother, sister) were ever smacked in any form and, I'd like to think, we're all very well brought up with good morals and manners etc and all starting to be succesful in our careers.
I've asked my mother about this before as our neighbours can be quite rough with their young kids and she simply thinks it isn;t necessary. My folks we good parents who brought us up very well and never needed to resort to that method to get results.
I don't condemn it but still don't think it's necessary or agree that whether a child is smacked to discipline them has any effect on how they'll act as a teen or adult.
It's just as likely to cause a child to rebel as it is to conform/behave.
I've asked my mother about this before as our neighbours can be quite rough with their young kids and she simply thinks it isn;t necessary. My folks we good parents who brought us up very well and never needed to resort to that method to get results.
I don't condemn it but still don't think it's necessary or agree that whether a child is smacked to discipline them has any effect on how they'll act as a teen or adult.
It's just as likely to cause a child to rebel as it is to conform/behave.
artov60 said:
Cara Van Man said:
Tiggsy said:
a light smack on the back of the leg? what does that do then? whats your objective? are you just lashing out to make yourself feel better (that the only reason i can see that i would do it) or do you belive its a better punishmnet that the non phsical alteratives...and why? is it because it's quick and easy....do you want them to fear it as the ultimate punishment (because i can guarantee you mine would take a "light smack" over 100 lines and no TV in the blink of an eye!)
You don't seem to be able to differentiate between discipline and violence.How odd. You accuse people of lashing out, when they have quite cleasrly explained that a 'light tap on the legs' can be used effectively as a way of disciplining a child.
I rarely smack my daughter, but if I have tried all means possible to correct her behaviour and they have failed, I will threaten her with a smacked bum. The mere threat often works. It's a good last resort for a parent to have in their 'armoury' as long as it's controlled and not because of anger.
I know the difference between discipline and abuse. I've been there in ways you've probably not encountered.
So don't preach to me that a small smack or a clip around the ear is abuse. It's not.
Getting kicked until you piss yourself is.
It is always the poor argument used by the "liberals" (who think of children just as short adults rather than children who need to know where the boundaries are) where they link an example of extreme violence with one of minor chastisement to prove their case.
One of the key rules to punishment of any type is to be clear and consistent. Parents who lash out because they are in a bad mood do not give clear signals of right or wrong and their children will most likely feel free to behave in any way they wish depending on their mood as well.
Society as a whole appears to be becoming selfish rather than selfless..... or is it just that people are more open about it?
when I was young we still had the cane!
FTJoe said:
None of my family (me, brother, sister) were ever smacked in any form and, I'd like to think, we're all very well brought up with good morals and manners etc and all starting to be succesful in our careers.
I've asked my mother about this before as our neighbours can be quite rough with their young kids and she simply thinks it isn;t necessary. My folks we good parents who brought us up very well and never needed to resort to that method to get results.
I don't condemn it but still don't think it's necessary or agree that whether a child is smacked to discipline them has any effect on how they'll act as a teen or adult.
It's just as likely to cause a child to rebel as it is to conform/behave.
that is fair comment and you certainly sound like a 'normal' individual, 99.9% of the time I have not found it neccessary and I have not used it for years and i hope I never will in the future, but I am not going to take it out of the quiverI've asked my mother about this before as our neighbours can be quite rough with their young kids and she simply thinks it isn;t necessary. My folks we good parents who brought us up very well and never needed to resort to that method to get results.
I don't condemn it but still don't think it's necessary or agree that whether a child is smacked to discipline them has any effect on how they'll act as a teen or adult.
It's just as likely to cause a child to rebel as it is to conform/behave.
chippy17 said:
FTJoe said:
None of my family (me, brother, sister) were ever smacked in any form and, I'd like to think, we're all very well brought up with good morals and manners etc and all starting to be succesful in our careers.
I've asked my mother about this before as our neighbours can be quite rough with their young kids and she simply thinks it isn;t necessary. My folks we good parents who brought us up very well and never needed to resort to that method to get results.
I don't condemn it but still don't think it's necessary or agree that whether a child is smacked to discipline them has any effect on how they'll act as a teen or adult.
It's just as likely to cause a child to rebel as it is to conform/behave.
that is fair comment and you certainly sound like a 'normal' individual, 99.9% of the time I have not found it neccessary and I have not used it for years and i hope I never will in the future, but I am not going to take it out of the quiverI've asked my mother about this before as our neighbours can be quite rough with their young kids and she simply thinks it isn;t necessary. My folks we good parents who brought us up very well and never needed to resort to that method to get results.
I don't condemn it but still don't think it's necessary or agree that whether a child is smacked to discipline them has any effect on how they'll act as a teen or adult.
It's just as likely to cause a child to rebel as it is to conform/behave.
I agree mostly with the point of people over feeding children, It makes me feel sick to see young children obese (unless it's due to a medical problem) and their parents doing their daily (month worth of food) shop buying crisps, chocolate, doughnuts etc for the children, so they never whinge. and a pile of microwave meals, because it's easier than getting off your arse and cooking.
IMHO that's neglect just as much as not feeding a child enough is, because either way you see it, it's shortening their lives.
My son gets a healthy mix, he rarely gets juice over water, and tbh he usually asks for water now rather than juice, he loves fruit, and a nice mix of different foods, very very rarely has a sweet or a bit of chocolate, and when he goes to nursery I ask them to give him fruit/yoghurt rather than junk desserts, and no ketchup etc.
On the smacking front, if he is naughty and continues to be naughty they very occasionally I might give him 2 warnings and if ignored give him a little smack on the back of his hand, otherwise I sit him down, and he usually sits there for a couple of minutes untill I talk to him about why he is sitting there, and he always apologises. I completely disagree with things like a child smacking another child and the parent telling the child they shouldnt smack, and to punish them for this, smacks the child, how confusing must that be for the little one! But I am not against parents smacking children now and again where it's needed, a lot of (older) people I know before we entered such a nanny state have said it certainly did them no harm.
And well, the proof is in the puddling look at childrens behaviour these days compared to (only going by what I get told) it used to be, but I guess that also comes into the nature/nurture argument.
edit: and toddlers/babies with peirced ears, tacky, very tacky.
IMHO that's neglect just as much as not feeding a child enough is, because either way you see it, it's shortening their lives.
My son gets a healthy mix, he rarely gets juice over water, and tbh he usually asks for water now rather than juice, he loves fruit, and a nice mix of different foods, very very rarely has a sweet or a bit of chocolate, and when he goes to nursery I ask them to give him fruit/yoghurt rather than junk desserts, and no ketchup etc.
On the smacking front, if he is naughty and continues to be naughty they very occasionally I might give him 2 warnings and if ignored give him a little smack on the back of his hand, otherwise I sit him down, and he usually sits there for a couple of minutes untill I talk to him about why he is sitting there, and he always apologises. I completely disagree with things like a child smacking another child and the parent telling the child they shouldnt smack, and to punish them for this, smacks the child, how confusing must that be for the little one! But I am not against parents smacking children now and again where it's needed, a lot of (older) people I know before we entered such a nanny state have said it certainly did them no harm.
And well, the proof is in the puddling look at childrens behaviour these days compared to (only going by what I get told) it used to be, but I guess that also comes into the nature/nurture argument.
edit: and toddlers/babies with peirced ears, tacky, very tacky.
Edited by Cas_P on Friday 12th June 15:18
Justayellowbadge said:
Cas_P said:
edit: and toddlers/babies with peirced ears, tacky, very tacky.
To us, yes, agreed. But it's the norm in some cultures - the Spanish would pierce a baby's ears during labour if they had the chance.
Justayellowbadge said:
Cas_P said:
edit: and toddlers/babies with peirced ears, tacky, very tacky.
To us, yes, agreed. But it's the norm in some cultures - the Spanish would pierce a baby's ears during labour if they had the chance.still vile IMO regardless
Justayellowbadge said:
Cas_P said:
edit: and toddlers/babies with peirced ears, tacky, very tacky.
To us, yes, agreed. But it's the norm in some cultures - the Spanish would pierce a baby's ears during labour if they had the chance.Dupont666 said:
Are Tiggsy and supermono related or the same person, its the same type of frustrating 'I only see it my way and you are all wrong till their is concrete evidence otherwise and even thy I may just ignore it'.... very strange.
Maybe we have someones doppleganger in the fold.
I was simply curious as to what the smackers thought they got out of it. I dont think it's morally wrong....quite frankly, what other PH'ers do with their kids is of little concern to me. But, as someone who doesnt smack and knows why and i just wondering what others see in their actions.Maybe we have someones doppleganger in the fold.
It's like i've seen someone with a stupid size spoiler on their car...fine, if they like it...i just dont think it's needed so am curious as to what the purpose is.
Maybe you all have badly behaved kids! In whcih case, feel free to hit em!
andy400 said:
Justayellowbadge said:
Cas_P said:
edit: and toddlers/babies with peirced ears, tacky, very tacky.
To us, yes, agreed. But it's the norm in some cultures - the Spanish would pierce a baby's ears during labour if they had the chance.Just pointing out that others might see it differently.
Tiggsy said:
It's like i've seen someone with a stupid size spoiler on their car...fine, if they like it...i just dont think it's needed so am curious as to what the purpose is.
Maybe you all have badly behaved kids! In whcih case, feel free to hit em!
See, there you go again with your pointless anecdotal comparisons, nicely rounded off with a patronising sweeping statement that intimates that anyone who smacks their kids is because the kids are bad.Maybe you all have badly behaved kids! In whcih case, feel free to hit em!
You've point blank refused to acknowledge either of my posts and the valid points I've made. I'll give up now as you clearly have a "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" attitude to anyone whose opinion differs to yours. Have a nice day.
Edited by Cara Van Man on Friday 12th June 16:11
Edited by Cara Van Man on Friday 12th June 16:11
Justayellowbadge said:
andy400 said:
Justayellowbadge said:
Cas_P said:
edit: and toddlers/babies with peirced ears, tacky, very tacky.
To us, yes, agreed. But it's the norm in some cultures - the Spanish would pierce a baby's ears during labour if they had the chance.Just pointing out that others might see it differently.
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