The Science of Exercise

[didelydoo]

Halb said:

If you do 100x0, or 10x 100, you'll be getting intensity, different sorts, that comes. One can track better with volume than anything else

Intensity in all the rep ranges really, focus from 5 to 15- this is what makes you grow. Make a 5 rep max to a 15 rep max over time- you’ll be bigger and stronger.

Lots of approaches, but I know this one works. More effectively than higher and lower rep/volume ranges.

[didelydoo]

Halb said:

One can track better with volume than anything else

Only to a point- then there comes a time when you can't add more volume. Like wise with frequency. The only other variable left to change is intensity. When weights get to a certain level, volume and frequency will become limiting factors- intensity can always be pushed.

[TameRacingDriver]

So, as I train without a spotter, is there any harm in doing partial reps towards the end of my set if I can't manage a FROM rep in good form?

[didelydoo]

TameRacingDriver said:

So, as I train without a spotter, is there any harm in doing partial reps towards the end of my set if I can't manage a FROM rep in good form?

I train with no spotter too- best way to go beyond failure, IMO, is to rest pause reps. Basically rep until you are about to fail the next rep, rack/stop- take 15 deep breaths- rep until just before you fail, rack/stop- take 15 deep breaths- rep to failure/close as you can safely depending on exercise.

Either that or drop sets, but they're a pain by your self.

Partial sets work to, but not to the same degree- certainly no harm in them.

I basically do ALL of my heavy work rest pause (apart from deads)- infact, almost every main work set pretty much.

Again, this is just what I do, I love training this way, and it works well for me.

[TameRacingDriver]

didelydoo said:

I train with no spotter too- best way to go beyond failure, IMO, is to rest pause reps. Basically rep until you are about to fail the next rep, rack/stop- take 15 deep breaths- rep until just before you fail, rack/stop- take 15 deep breaths- rep to failure/close as you can safely depending on exercise.

Either that or drop sets, but they're a pain by your self.

Partial sets work to, but not to the same degree- certainly no harm in them.

I basically do ALL of my heavy work rest pause (apart from deads)- infact, almost every main work set pretty much.

Again, this is just what I do, I love training this way, and it works well for me.

Thanks, good suggestion, I'll try that. I tried doing the partials yesterday but your method sounds just as good if not better.

[didelydoo]

TameRacingDriver said:

Thanks, good suggestion, I'll try that. I tried doing the partials yesterday but your method sounds just as good if not better.

I try to aim for 6-10 reps, then 2-3 reps, then 1-2 reps. If you can get 15 reps across the 3 sets, add more weight. That's pretty much my system..... but it hard work- effectively 3 sets in one. Don't rush the 15 count- use 15 deep breaths- you'll need them. You'll only need to do one, or two, of these types of working sets for a given exercise/movement (it's all you'll manage too )

[LordGrover]

The issue as I see it, especially with newbs, is defining 'intensity'.
Most people just don't know when they're working at 65% or 90% or 100% effort.

[didelydoo]

LordGrover said:

The issue as I see it, especially with newbs, is defining 'intensity'.
Most people just don't know when they're working at 65% or 90% or 100% effort.

This is true, it's not a good approach for new lifters, nor perhaps even for intermediates. Another factor to consider is that until you can lift poundage's that are heavy enough, then my approach won't be the best either. Sufficient load is needed to impart the stress required to grow.

Using volume until it's a limiting factor, then moving to intensity focus may be the best approach.

[Halb]

TameRacingDriver said:

I'm glad you agree I'm not totally wasting my time though :-)

If you're doing something, you're never wasting time. I used to have a 20-30 rep routine when I was pushed for time, for intensity, there was nothing that touched it, apart from the circuits I do, which are sort of similar.
this being one
https://www.t-nation.com/training/lose-fat-stay-st...

didelydoo said:

Only to a point- then there comes a time when you can't add more volume. Like wise with frequency. The only other variable left to change is intensity. When weights get to a certain level, volume and frequency will become limiting factors- intensity can always be pushed.

It's a slidey scale, and the fulcrum moves as to what can be done and goals etc, everything can be pushed, those three variable to different degrees. Volume is the one thing that can always be pushed. Either by an extra rep, or extra plate. Intensity is a part of this.

Edited by Halb on Wednesday 28th February 10:39

[Halb]

LordGrover said:

The issue as I see it, especially with newbs, is defining 'intensity'.
Most people just don't know when they're working at 65% or 90% or 100% effort.

This is a good point and what I was trying to hit upon earlier. intensity is just not measurable for a lot of people in the gym, a friend who camer to the gym with me just didn't wanna work hard and soon stopped.
It's difficult for most to gauge, as is activating muscles.
THere was a brilliant programme on last week about strength training, low weight high weight, they both are intense, the low weight has a more burn effect that lasts longer, so the people in the study didn't like it. But they both achieved the goal of strength.
Which is what made me start looking at the old routines again, Herschel Walker et al.

Edited by Halb on Wednesday 28th February 10:42

[LordGrover]

Sounds a lot like we're heading towards Max Contraction training here.
When I tried it, 'curling' 50kg dumbbell was all well and good, but in the end had very little effect on me.

[didelydoo]

Halb said:

It's a slidey scale, everything can be pushed, those three variable to different degrees. Volume is the one thing that can always be pushed. Either by an extra rep, or extra plate. Intensity is a limiting factor, one can only go so hard.

Pushing for that extra rep, or doing the set with that little more weight would fall under intensity IMO- you're trying harder. Volume is simply adding in more reps/sets, not making them harder- that's why it's limiting- you can just keep adding more volume. But keeping volume set, you can add more intensity in.

I see how there is a slight cross over with volume/intensity- but pushing harder to get the extra rep, using methods like drop sets, forced reps, rest pause etc or adding more weight and keeping reps the same isn't adjusting volume, but increasing intensity.

[Halb]

LordGrover said:

Sounds a lot like we're heading towards Max Contraction training here.
When I tried it, 'curling' 50kg dumbbell was all well and good, but in the end had very little effect on me.

Never heard of it, just loooked. Sounds like isometrics.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/isometrics-for-m...


Which can, from what I've read gain real strength.

although in my head, I was thinking of 20-100 reps, not 1

[Halb]

didelydoo said:

Pushing for that extra rep, or doing the set with that little more weight would fall under intensity IMO- you're trying harder. Volume is simply adding in more reps/sets, not making them harder- that's why it's limiting- you can just keep adding more volume. But keeping volume set, you can add more intensity in.
I see how there is a slight cross over with volume/intensity- but pushing harder to get the extra rep, using methods like drop sets, forced reps, rest pause etc or adding more weight and keeping reps the same isn't adjusting volume, but increasing intensity.

Originally I wrote intensity is limiting, but it's not, not really, the same as volume, they are interlinked. I don't mean exactly pushing for that rep, but as you described before, waiting a period of time and then doing the rep, in your pause method, then one can always add more, and if you know enough to wait the right time, then intensity is not gonna go away, not that that is that such a bad thing.
You can't always add more intensity, you can reach peak intensity/effort and then that's it, one doesn't explode, though uit can be maintained, but one can always add more volume. OK I see what you're saying with drop sets now. I don't use them, or haven't for year anyway, but that system isn't any more 'intense' that say a century set at the right weight. Horse for courses.
I'm probably not able to get my thoughts across as clearly as I like, I'm not a hundred miles away from your position, save for volume doesn't have a cap.

edit
I also edited that post several times, the one you quotes about the scale because I wasn't able to articulate clearly enough what I wanted to say. Stil didn't get there in the end but perhaps close enough.

Edited by Halb on Wednesday 28th February 10:57

[didelydoo]

Halb said:

Originally I wrote intensity is limiting, but it's not, not really, the same as volume, they are interlinked. I don't mean exactly pushing for that rep, but as you described before, waiting a period of time and then doing the rep, in your pause method, then one can always add more, and if you know enough to wait the right time, then intensity is not gonna go away, not that that is that such a bad thing.
You can't always add more intensity, you can reach peak intensity/effort and then that's it, one doesn't explode, though uit can be maintained, but one can always add more volume. OK I see what you're saying with drop sets now. I don't use them, or haven't for year anyway, but that system isn't any more 'intense' that say a century set at the right weight. Horse for courses.
I'm probably not able to get my thoughts across as clearly as I like, I'm not a hundred miles away from your position, save for volume doesn't have a cap.

Week on week, intensity should give you strength gains given appropriate recovery- peak intensity will be slightly higher than the previous week, though it will still just feel like max effort, so won't feel more intense then before. Volume is surely capped by time restraints?

I also view intensity as intrinsically linked to load- it's got to be heavy, to be intense, rather than anything over say 15 reps. If you're doing 100 reps, it'll be hard, but not intense- I don't think it's possible to maintain intensity well after 10 reps TBH. A bit like sprinting.

I see what you mean though- there's cross over. I like an intense, heavy set, but usually finish up with more volume on the little things- pushdowns, curls and such like.

Either way- doing something consistently for time, is the main thing people should be concerned about

[Halb]

didelydoo said:

Week on week, intensity should give you strength gains given appropriate recovery- peak intensity will be slightly higher than the previous week, though it will still just feel like max effort, so won't feel more intense then before. Volume is surely capped by time restraints?
I also view intensity as intrinsically linked to load- it's got to be heavy, to be intense, rather than anything over say 15 reps. If you're doing 100 reps, it'll be hard, but not intense- I don't think it's possible to maintain intensity well after 10 reps TBH. A bit like sprinting.
I see what you mean though- there's cross over. I like an intense, heavy set, but usually finish up with more volume on the little things- pushdowns, curls and such like.
ither way- doing something consistently for time, is the main thing people should be concerned about

Right, time restraints, I understand that now. Funnily enough back when I worked for an IT firm and wanted to train in lunch, I used my 1 set 20 rep routine (squat, snatch, bench, press, clean, dedlift etc), it was hard, and what I deem as intense, those first 10 reps may not feel like anything but that changes, and it becomes willpower, like widowmkaer squats. Of course as strength increase with the amount of fibres you can recruit and how much your cns gets smashed then recovery becomes more, so frequency drops but then you can still push forward.
One day, if you fancy it, try 500 Hindu squats, or just air squaTS, AND tell me what you think.

ultimately though, yeah, consistency is key.
Herscehl walker would get up early in the morning to do his 1,000s of press-ups so he had the time

[LordGrover]

Perhaps we're talking about effort, not intensity?

[didelydoo]

LordGrover said:

Perhaps we're talking about effort, not intensity?

I'd say so. Whilst super high rep sets are very tough, they're not intense- you're not lifting at max effort every rep through out the set, and by the time it's hard, you're too fatigued to do so. Incredibly hard, tough and involves a lot will power- but so does running a marathon.

Intensity when lifting, as I see it, is similar to sprinting- full capacity/effort for all reps - and you simply you can't maintain this over 10-15 reps. Similar to keeping a 100m pace over 500+ m.

[ORD]

didelydoo said:

I'd say so. Whilst super high rep sets are very tough, they're not intense- you're not lifting at max effort every rep through out the set, and by the time it's hard, you're too fatigued to do so. Incredibly hard, tough and involves a lot will power- but so does running a marathon.

Intensity when lifting, as I see it, is similar to sprinting- full capacity/effort for all reps - and you simply you can't maintain this over 10-15 reps. Similar to keeping a 100m pace over 500+ m.

I agree with that.

And there’s a fair bit of science to suggest that anything too light (think much over 20 reps) won’t trigger substantial strength gains or hypertrophy, at least in trained lifters. 100 reps is cardio.

As for Herschel Walker, he gets up early to do his first round of injections for the day. Obvious juicer is very obvious.

[Halb]

ORD said:

And there’s a fair bit of science to suggest that anything too light (think much over 20 reps) won’t trigger substantial strength gains or hypertrophy, at least in trained lifters. 100 reps is cardio.

As for Herschel Walker, he gets up early to do his first round of injections for the day. Obvious juicer is very obvious.

read more
I don't mean that facetiously.
The blogspot I posted is one of the best, if not the best repository of lifting knowledge on the web.
Bill Starr knows a thing or two, and he knows long sets build strength, he's not a cardio guy or an inexperienced lifter either.

Edited by Halb on Wednesday 28th February 13:47