Advice on cutting / getting shredded!

[Warnie]

BenM77 said:

Low carb diet for kids?!

How old are they?

You don't understand It do you?

I am simply getting my children to cut back on sugary snacks, refined carbs and processed food. This is in favour of a diet of meat, lots of vegetables and lots of healthy fats. Their energy will come from fat, not empty carbs.

[goldblum]

Warnie said:

BenM77 said:

Low carb diet for kids?!

How old are they?

You don't understand It do you?

I am simply getting my children to cut back on sugary snacks, refined carbs and processed food. This is in favour of a diet of meat, lots of vegetables and lots of healthy fats. Their energy will come from fat, not empty carbs.

Their energy will come mostly from the carbs in the vegetables.

[Eleven]

Warnie said:

BenM77 said:

Low carb diet for kids?!

How old are they?

You don't understand It do you?

I am simply getting my children to cut back on sugary snacks, refined carbs and processed food. This is in favour of a diet of meat, lots of vegetables and lots of healthy fats. Their energy will come from fat, not empty carbs.

Your kids, your decision. But personally, whilst I am a big fan of a cutting out starchy carbs, I wouldn't inflict keto upon my children without the guidance of a dietician experienced in both low carb diets and paediatrics. Even then, I'd probably only consider it to counter a medical condition, not for any perceived health benefits.

There are risks associated with ketogenic diets, dehydration being one and this can lead to problems such as kidney stones. I bunked off school they day they did biology, but I believe such risks would be magnified in children.

[Hoofy]

Hm. Well, technically, he doesn't own the kids but we're stepping into a whole new discussion here.

[Eleven]

Hoofy said:

Hm. Well, technically, he doesn't own the kids but we're stepping into a whole new discussion here.

Quite. I think I was saying it's not our place to interfere, but I personally wouldn't subject my children to a keto diet without a reason outside of potential health benefits and expert advice. I would also have thought that if minors were put on such a diet ill-advisedly and it caused harm that parents would experience problems with the authorities.

[Hoofy]

I guessed you were going that way and tend to agree that it does sound a bit risky if the kids are healthy. Most kids are indeed healthy, not obese and don't diet. I do a lot of work with kids and during a quiet moment decided to work out how many kids needed to go on a diet given the obesity crisis we're experiencing. I figured it was about 5%. Some crisis.

[Halb]

Doesn't sound like a keto diet, "lots of vegetables".

[Eleven]

Halb said:

Doesn't sound like a keto diet, "lots of vegetables".

You can eat quite a lot of veg once you're in ketosis, without coming out of ketosis, providing it's not high carb stuff like potatoes. In fact you can get away with eating and drinking a lot, including alcohol, without coming out of ketosis.

[Halb]

Eleven said:

You can eat quite a lot of veg once you're in ketosis, without coming out of ketosis, providing it's not high carb stuff like potatoes. In fact you can get away with eating and drinking a lot, including alcohol, without coming out of ketosis.

Some alcohol.
http://dietketo.com/keto-and-alcohol-are-they-a-go...

Ketosis is a sliding scale, it's not off or on, and if you are eating 'loads of veg' then it is gonna be more than 30 grams. The kids may start the transition into keto, they may not, but so long as they do eat plenty multi-coloured veg they'll be fine, deep greens have the least carbs, but it won't take long before a tomato, a carrot and other mid range stuff fill you up with plenty carbs.
OP, do you let your kids have fruit?

Warnie said:

I am simply getting my children to cut back on sugary snacks, refined carbs and processed food. This is in favour of a diet of meat, lots of vegetables and lots of healthy fats. Their energy will come from fat, not empty carbs.

So reading the above it's just the sugary st that is getting cut out, treats and ready meals.

Edited by Halb on Thursday 20th March 21:30

[Eleven]

Halb said:

Eleven said:

You can eat quite a lot of veg once you're in ketosis, without coming out of ketosis, providing it's not high carb stuff like potatoes. In fact you can get away with eating and drinking a lot, including alcohol, without coming out of ketosis.

Some alcohol.
http://dietketo.com/keto-and-alcohol-are-they-a-go...

Ketosis is a sliding scale, it's not off or on, and if you are eating 'loads of veg' then it is gonna be more than 30 grams. The kids may start the transition into keto, they may not, but so long as they do eat plenty multi-coloured veg they'll be fine, deep greens have the least carbs, but it won't take long before a tomato, a carrot and other mid range stuff fill you up with plenty carbs.

I don't know if you've pursued a keto diet? I do most of the time and for periods of time I have measured ketones using ketostix, so I am fairly familiar with the effect of different foods and drinks.

Ketosis IS on or off. In fact the transition can be quite dramatic. Though once in ketosis there are varying degrees. As for tomatoes being carby, not really are they? 4 or 5 grams?

Speaking personally I find that I can do pretty much anything but drink beer, eat simple carbs or eat starchy carbs and remain in ketosis. If I have a single high-carb meal I will USUALLY come out of ketosis but get back into it quite quickly. A day of carby meals and it takes 4 days to regain ketosis. In fact 4 days is the time it always takes me to transition, whether I've been on a high-carb diet for a day or a month.

[Halb]

Eleven said:

I don't know if you've pursued a keto diet? I do most of the time and for periods of time I have measured ketones using ketostix, so I am fairly familiar with the effect of different foods and drinks.
Ketosis IS on or off. In fact the transition can be quite dramatic. Though once in ketosis there are varying degrees. As for tomatoes being carby, not really are they? 4 or 5 grams?
Speaking personally I find that I can do pretty much anything but drink beer, eat simple carbs or eat starchy carbs and remain in ketosis. If I have a single high-carb meal I will USUALLY come out of ketosis but get back into it quite quickly. A day of carby meals and it takes 4 days to regain ketosis. In fact 4 days is the time it always takes me to transition, whether I've been on a high-carb diet for a day or a month.

I have done it. Ketosis is not on/off, I don't think any bodily functions are, it's not how we work. Though you may notice the effects dramatically. I've used the ketostix.
The body is constantly sliding one way or the other.
Normal toms are around 5, threeish meals a day healthy mixed veg, toms, carrots, corn etc won't put kids into the higher end of keto.

Edited by Halb on Thursday 20th March 22:06

[Stedman]

Worth a look?

[Halb]

Stedman said:

Worth a look?

Thus guy lives by the keto diet.
And this page is interesting reading, he consumed over 300g of carbs in a day and stayed in keto, due to his glycogen deficit. Mad cyclist.
http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/keto...
He is an interesting experiment.

[Eleven]

Halb said:

Eleven said:

I don't know if you've pursued a keto diet? I do most of the time and for periods of time I have measured ketones using ketostix, so I am fairly familiar with the effect of different foods and drinks.
Ketosis IS on or off. In fact the transition can be quite dramatic. Though once in ketosis there are varying degrees. As for tomatoes being carby, not really are they? 4 or 5 grams?
Speaking personally I find that I can do pretty much anything but drink beer, eat simple carbs or eat starchy carbs and remain in ketosis. If I have a single high-carb meal I will USUALLY come out of ketosis but get back into it quite quickly. A day of carby meals and it takes 4 days to regain ketosis. In fact 4 days is the time it always takes me to transition, whether I've been on a high-carb diet for a day or a month.

I have done it. Ketosis is not on/off, I don't think any bodily functions are, it's not how we work. Though you may notice the affects dramatically. I've used the ketostix.
The body is constantly sliding one way or the other.
Normal toms are around 5, threeish meals a day healthy mixed veg, toms, carrots, corn etc won't put kids into the higher end of keto.

Edited by Halb on Thursday 20th March 22:01

Well, according to ketostix ketosis is on/off. Which corresponds exactly with the sensation and symptoms of being in ketosis. So I am going to disagree with you. But I'll happily consider any evidence you can provide to the contrary

I agree that a diet like that won't put the kids into ketosis. It will probably just make them irritable and knackered. If however they pursued a high fat diet with fewer and carefully selected veg for a week and then ate like that I doubt they'd come out of ketosis.

One needs to decide what is going to provide energy - carbs or fats - and run with one. Doing either half-heartedly doesn't work.

[Halb]

Eleven said:

Well, according to ketostix ketosis is on/off. Which corresponds exactly with the sensation and symptoms of being in ketosis. So I am going to disagree with you. But I'll happily consider any evidence you can provide to the contrary
I agree that a diet like that won't put the kids into ketosis. It will probably just make them irritable and knackered. If however they pursued a high fat diet with fewer and carefully selected veg for a week and then ate like that I doubt they'd come out of ketosis.
One needs to decide what is going to provide energy - carbs or fats - and run with one. Doing either half-heartedly doesn't work.

Ketostix is just a product. Ketones don't get magically produced the second the last glycogen is gone, obviously, no part of the human body works like that, it's all a sliding scale. Just as the body doesn't start burning fat the second you go into the 'fat-burning' zone. It all works together, that's why it's not on/off. You can be in a state of ketosis where you are producing enough ketones to show that's what you are primarily using, but the process starts at a higher state. Depletion is slower than accretion, so you can slide out of it quicker.
I don't see anything the poster has said that would deprive his kids of energy or feeling knackered, especially if they are allowed fruit. He said no refined carbs etc.
And yes, using fats/carbs/protein combo for energy is fine, it's how humans work. An extreme example is in the link above.
Using both works perfectly fine for me, nothing half hearted in it.

[BenM77]

I just don't get the low carb thing. Even the people who advocate it admit to having 'cheat days' which proves they would rather be eating food they like!


Carbs are awesome IMO. Including the unmentionables = bread, pasta, potato, rice. Yummy

[Eleven]

BenM77 said:

I just don't get the low carb thing. Even the people who advocate it admit to having 'cheat days' which proves they would rather be eating food they like!


Carbs are awesome IMO. Including the unmentionables = bread, pasta, potato, rice. Yummy

Cheat days serve two purposes in my view. Firstly they allow you to eat whatever you want occasionally and life is easier in the knowledge that no foods are off limits permanently. Secondly they keep the body on its toes and when you return to a keto diet it is more effective.

Now, YOU might look like a god with 10% body fat and YOU might achieve that whilst eating everything that crosses your path. Most people cannot, and need to make choices. For many of those people, a keto diet is easier to pursue than a calorie controlled "conventional" diet.

[Warnie]

goldblum said:

Their energy will come mostly from the carbs in the vegetables.

Thanks goldblum

Your far too clever for us mere mortals;)

[Warnie]

Eleven said:

Your kids, your decision. But personally, whilst I am a big fan of a cutting out starchy carbs, I wouldn't inflict keto upon my children without the guidance of a dietician experienced in both low carb diets and paediatrics. Even then, I'd probably only consider it to counter a medical condition, not for any perceived health benefits.

There are risks associated with ketogenic diets, dehydration being one and this can lead to problems such as kidney stones. I bunked off school they day they did biology, but I believe such risks would be magnified in children.

Why would I need a dietician for replacing their cereal with eggs/ham/greek yogurt etc, and for cutting back on sugary snacks and processed food? What is it about these foods that I should leave them in their diet? am I missing something in that by removing these foods that their health will be at risk?

The key word in my post was cutting back, not cutting out. So less crap empty processed food and more natural foods that we have lived on for thousands of years before all this low fat bks came in.

[Warnie]

Halb said:

So reading the above it's just the sugary st that is getting cut out, treats and ready meals.

Edited by Halb on Thursday 20th March 21:30

Exactly, and yes they have fruit every day, mainly berries and apples.

I feel like I've just walked into a bar and ordered a soft drink with the stick I'm getting for getting my kids to eat proper food