Realistic combined levels of fat loss and lean mass gain

[MurderousCrow]

otolith said:

Thanks Luke. I'd love to have the time and resources to do a proper literature review...

What I was looking to add, though, was personal experience outside of controlled trial conditions. Also, I'm slightly obsessive about this at the moment, to some extent I'm treating it as a little experiment with my own physiology, so I wanted to talk about it with people who won't think it's an entirely weird thing to be doing

It’s not at all weird... well, within my little circle it isn’t . I have years of exercise logs, all notated with the same format for ease of reference…

Here’s a reply I gave to someone asking a very similar question to yours on a different forum. I tried to include only approaches with a reasonably solid evidence base:

I said:

“It's definitely possible, but won't be easy. You'll need to work extremely hard, eat quality food with plenty of protein, eat only just enough and maintain commitment to your goals for long enough to see results.

Exercise: generally, explosive workouts will yield the greatest bang for your buck, prompting an increase in post-exercise metabolic rate (and thus burning fat) without inducing muscle catabolism (as long steady-state sessions are wont to do). That means performing maximal effort sessions over a variety of intervals from very short bursts of heavy resistance (e.g. Olympic lifts) to somewhat longer intervals using lighter resistance (e.g. Tabata sets, minute on / minute off sprints).

Big, 'real-world' movements are the ideal - avoid the bodybuilding ethos of isolating muscles as far as possible. Also be aware that you must not start hauling on big weights without learning appropriate form. Weightlifting properly is a skill, and many aspects are not intuitive. Youtube and sites such as Dragon Door, Bodybuilding.com can be a rich source of info, but far better would be some coaching from someone appropriately qualified / experienced. Further, intense exercise releases big quantities of endorphins which may mask pain; be careful to listen to your body and stop at the first sign of injury.

Diet: research seems to suggest one can fend off catabolic damage and support tissue repair with sufficient intake of protein within 30 minutes of session ending. You'll want some protein shake, as it's cheaper than meat / eggs etc. and of appropriate physiological quality to be readily utilised. That said, a study I saw recently suggested that the timing of protein intake is far more important than the nature of the protein.

Some folk are having good fat loss results using the 5:2 diet. Anecdotally I use it myself: my fitness goals are somewhat different to yours as I'm currently focused on increasing CV endurance. Despite significant weight loss over the 3 months I've used it, my peak strength hasn't decined significantly across a variety of movements and body fat is considerably reduced (now estimated at approx. 10%). What the research says on this I'm not sure. I know it's working well for me, and I have no problem training on 'fast' days.

Be aware that with your aim in mind, weight loss per se won't be a useful guide as to your progress. If you can, go to an exercise physiologist who can take accurate body fat measurements using calipers; you can then compare results reliably over time. Better yet, such a person will be able to offer useful advice on how best to achieve your goals. Alternatively and more cheaply you can get some useful data from periodic hip, waist and neck measurements.

Although I have reservations about some of the organisation's literary output (a bit dogmatic in some instances to say the least) I would think CrossFit might be a good place to start for you. Ensure the instructor pays adequate attention to promoting the concept of good form, particularly when lifting weights. If they don't, walk away. Good luck!”

And:

I said:

“A bit more advice regarding diet: assuming your diet is composed of generally high-quality food (avoiding processed carbs) a simple measure you can use to avoid overeating is a satiety scale. It's a subjective estimate, usually arbitrarily ranging from 1-10 where 1 is 'famished' and 10 is 'painfully full'. If you aim to eat to a 5 or a 6 (satisfied, but could manage more) you should be taking in enough calories to replenish your depleted glycogen stores post-workout and maintain muscular growth without excess.

With your two goals running concurrently, it's inevitable you will have to go through periods of feeling somewhat hungry, and you may well find yourself experiencing a greater degree of post-exercise muscular soreness than otherwise (there seems to be a link between insufficient protein intake and extended DOMS or delayed-onset muscular soreness). ...Your aims are somewhat conflicting, although not inevitably so. As above, ensure a high-quality diet in general, and have protein to hand for when you finish exercising.

Whichever diet method you try, it's important to take your baseline before you begin (weight and circumferences) and stick with the method long enough to see results (so long as it's bearable given your workouts). This way you'll find something which works well for you, and you can avoid repeating mistakes.”

I'd slightly modify some of those points now (I made this reply about two years ago, and my knowledge and understanding have improved a little since then).

Regarding diet:

- In the above replies I didn't sufficiently emphasise that it is primarily diet which is responsible for fat loss
- Recent evidence shows that daily protein intake of >1.5g / kg bodyweight will be sufficient *for beginners* so long as intake is regular and reasonably frequent; for advanced lifters, the timing of protein intake becomes more important

Regarding exercise:

- There is definitely a place for easy CV endurance work, both for strength training and for general fitness, especially if endurance exercises with a strong eccentric component such as running) are largely avoided or used infrequently
- I'd also now advise that anyone training seriously approaches CrossFit or similar very cautiously indeed - that is to say anyone implementing random daily 'WODs' with no thought to specificity, accumulation, recovery and deload etc. etc. Some CF practitioners are very skilled and knowlegeable, but the organisation's concept of training is fundamentally flawed IMO, as demonstrated by high injury and drop-out rates

The problem with personal experience is that it is massively, massively variable. Two people of similar fat-free mass may display radically different abilities (or lack of) depending on previous training, height, attitude, diet, segment lengths... The list goes on. This can be demoralising if one feels one is 'underperforming'; conversely the sway of mass opinion may encourage only mediocre goals. If you seek informed and realistic opinion, a better place to start might be specific weightlifting and powerlifting forums.

FWIW my reasonably-supported belief is that simultaneous fat loss and and lean mass gain will not go on for long. You are currently picking low-hanging fruit. Once these positive changes plateau, your aims become increasingly exclusive. The research seems to show that for a multitude of reasons lean mass accrual is optimal in mild caloric excess. Nutrition has a massive effect on both intra- and inter-session factors, which collectively may tip the balance between achieving an effective session and an ineffective one, or adequate recovery vs inadequate.

In my own experience: respectable levels of 'natty' fat free mass gains along with large gains in strength are entirely compatible with frequent endurance activity; mobility and neuromotor coordination are far more important than many people realise; carbohydrates are essential for serious and effective training across nearly all exercise and loading durations; I cannot overstate the importance of a proper training diary using consistent notation; coaching from a really good coach is a game changer.

HTH,

Luke


Edited for grammar / accuracy

Edited by MurderousCrow on Thursday 30th June 14:35

[MurderousCrow]

Sorry for the extensive essay above

In addition here's some reading material you may like, which would beat conducting your own literature review:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0193WWTD6/ref=dp-kind... (a really good collection of knowledge from respected authors, now in 4th edition)

https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/ (good quality research review, subscription service but sends out one free article per month)

https://www.nsca.com/publications/reports-and-jour... (create a free account, and archived copies of the journal are free to read online and I think downloadable as PDFs)

Edited to say 'you're welcome' to KiwiLS2

Edited by MurderousCrow on Thursday 30th June 14:09

Edited by MurderousCrow on Thursday 30th June 20:05

[otolith]

Thanks Luke, that's really useful (and reassuring). I'll check those resources out too, looks like some good reading

The effect of timing on protein intake is one of those things that my trainer mentioned and I immediately thought "that sounds like bks, I will fact check it when I get home" - and found to my surprise that it was evidence based. Also noticed that some carbohydrate at the same time has been shown to be beneficial. I've got a whey powder shake with virtually no carbohydrate in it, which means I can add or not add some carbs as required by chucking it in the blender with some banana and/or oats.

The soreness is not too bad, tolerable - it's just that with four sessions a week, it feels like there's always something that hurts, it's only the location that changes

I'm not recording my exercise in any detail, only that my sessions are picked up and tracked by my watch/phone, but my trainer diligently notes everything down. Might ask her for copies at some point.

I may have gone a bit too far in my obsession with data - I found out that DEXA scans are not that expensive if you book a package of three, so I'm booked in for the first one next week. Would have been nice to have done it earlier, but this is the soonest they can do. I will follow up in a couple of months, and again a couple of months after that. Should give me a really good understanding of what's going on. May also help understand and address some minor oddities of posture my trainer has pointed out and some asymmetry of strength I've noticed. You have to explain why you need it to their doctor before you can have it done, but they were happy with my reasons and approved it.

[MurderousCrow]

The carb / protein thing is correct yes. The soreness you will come to love . DEXA is a gold-standard test for body composition, so it's great that you got a series of tests for a reasonable price - trends being so much more informative than single data points . Strength asymmetries are totally normal; don't stress too much about them. Good article on Nuckols' site about asymmetry, and corrective measures if you find yourself sufficiently fussed:

http://strengtheory.com/important-muscular-symmetr...

[otolith]

Interesting article - not much to worry about then! I did spend some time working on fluctuating asymmetry in fish as an indicator of developmental stress, so I know most bilaterally symmetrical organisms show some individual deviation and that it can have a whole raft of causes. And as the article points out, we are handed creatures, so some differences are likely to arise from our tendency to favour one side or the other. I find that I am weaker on one side than the other, and also that some exercises requiring balance are a lot harder one way than the other. My trainer often corrects the position of my feet, and I often find the "correct" position less natural.

[popeyewhite]

MurderousCrow said:

This might sound sniffy; it's really not meant to.

It's not really sniffy, but it's your second rather patronising post on a thread that I personally have contributed to. I couldn't really give a monkeys, but d'you really think being snide and offering veiled insults to every contributor on a thread is good manners? It's an interesting style of posting...is there a reason why you do it, or is it just that the internet lets you get away with acting like a clot? I'm sure when when you're having a conversation with your colleagues you don't start with the premise that everyone else involved in the conversation so far is highly likely to be wrong. Maybe you do..

[MurderousCrow]

popeyewhite said:

It's not really sniffy, but it's your second rather patronising post on a thread that I personally have contributed to. I couldn't really give a monkeys, but d'you really think being snide and offering veiled insults to every contributor on a thread is good manners? It's an interesting style of posting...is there a reason why you do it, or is it just that the internet lets you get away with acting like a clot? I'm sure when when you're having a conversation with your colleagues you don't start with the premise that everyone else involved in the conversation so far is highly likely to be wrong. Maybe you do..

If you want to make a meaningful reply to a genuine question on a scientific subject, it's good to do things like fact-check, ensure you've a reasonable evidence base for your opinion, and be prepared to justify your thinking - as opposed to meaninglessly regurgitating received wisdom.

Your reply is ad hom. To respond briefly: I don't feel it's snide to take issue with inaccurate or misguided 'advice'. Given you offered such, it's unsurprising you should feel differently. No, I'm just as much of a clot in real life. But I'm good at my job.

Out of interest. Do you begin conversations with colleagues with the premise you're correct?

[popeyewhite]

MurderousCrow said:

etc etc

Your post was rude and I'm letting you know. I suspect you might even have thought it was, which is why you said

MurderousCrow said:

This might sound sniffy; it's really not meant to.

It did.

There's a number of posters on here that have Degree quals and have worked in one field or another in the fitness industry for far longer than yourself, difference is they aren't really bothered about letting everyone else know about it, and when they do it's with far less hubris.

[MurderousCrow]

popeyewhite said:

It did.

There's a number of posters on here that have Degree quals and have worked in one field or another in the fitness industry for far longer than yourself, difference is they aren't really bothered about letting everyone else know about it, and when they do it's with far less hubris.

The issue is simple: the OP was asking what's realistic; forums usually provide unsubstantiated opinion.

Regarding your own replies: The OP clarified he wanted to hear people's personal experiences, so that's reasonable. But even then, you weren't supplying personal experience, your posts were presented as fact. And some of your facts are fairly erroneous, at least according to respected sources. For instance I'd be really interested to see references for your assertions on rate of lean mass gain (especially in overall caloric deficit), and the reasons for avoiding carbs and 'any endurance work, whether resistance training or cardio'. What does that even mean? What's a standard hypertrophy cycle? Is the OP meant to know? Rhetorical questions.

So yes some of your posts are representative of the kind of almost wilfully misunderstood stuff which permeates both the industry and the practice of fitness in popular culture. But my post wasn't about you; it was about the availability of more authoratitave sources of information than a forum can likely provide. (Would categorically not include myself as such a source. I'm just trying to learn.)

I find your use of the term hubris ironic.

Edited for grammar.

Edited by MurderousCrow on Friday 1st July 20:20

[otolith]

Interestingly, the DEXA scan came within a tenth of a percent of the body fat estimate from my scales - will be useful to see how close it is next time.

[otolith]

So, update. I just had a follow up DEXA scan, three months after the last (would have been nice to have done the first one before I started the training, but never mind).

Headline figures;

weight now 74.1kg from 76.7kg,
body fat % down from 23.3% to 18.4%.
4kg of fat lost.
1.5kg of muscle gained.

Fat distribution improved - android region down from 30.3% to 23.6%, gynoid region 26.1% to 22.9%, ratio down from 1.16 to 1.03 (ratio of fat on your belly to fat on your hips, higher values connected to diabetes and cardiovascular disease risks)

Fairly happy with that. I expect I could have lost more fat or gained more muscle if I had sacrificed the other objective, but that doesn't seem a bad compromise to me. I had already lost a lot of weight by the first scan, I was 90kg in January...

The body fat % figure from my scales which was about right three months ago is now way out, by the way...

[Liokault]

otolith said:

So, update. I just had a follow up DEXA scan, three months after the last (would have been nice to have done the first one before I started the training, but never mind).

Headline figures;

weight now 74.1kg from 76.7kg,
body fat % down from 23.3% to 18.4%.
4kg of fat lost.
1.5kg of muscle gained.

Fat distribution improved - android region down from 30.3% to 23.6%, gynoid region 26.1% to 22.9%, ratio down from 1.16 to 1.03 (ratio of fat on your belly to fat on your hips, higher values connected to diabetes and cardiovascular disease risks)

Fairly happy with that. I expect I could have lost more fat or gained more muscle if I had sacrificed the other objective, but that doesn't seem a bad compromise to me. I had already lost a lot of weight by the first scan, I was 90kg in January...

The body fat % figure from my scales which was about right three months ago is now way out, by the way...

Well done, really good work.

I might have missed it further up the thread, but how old are you? This has a massive impact on both muscle gain and weight loss.

[otolith]

I'm 43 - the nurse doing the DEXA scan warned me at the first one not to expect miracles at my age

[counterofbeans]

How tall are you?

[otolith]

5'6.

Amusingly, I am still overweight by BMI when at a bodyfat percentage lower than 78% of their age matched reference population. I think that's mostly because I have short legs and a long torso.

Still need to lose some fat of my belly, but that's much improved.

[stargazer30]

Op - first off good work!! I've been on the same journey, in brief heres what I did...

I am 39, and started gym almost a year ago. Prior to that, like you, I lost a load of weight first but via weight watchers. I felt fitter with a bit more energy but I was actually very weak. Like you when I first joined the gym I got a PT, for 3 months. I found out the hard way how weak I was. My PT blasted my muscles from every which angle using a million different exercises. After the initial OMG period, DOMs, etc.. I did get a bit stronger, then it stopped.

At that point I really started to clean up my diet. Using MFP aiming to hit 180g of protein a day. Net result, little change.
I stopped using the PT (he was good but expensive) and I started the Stronglifts program. I can honestly say that was the most effective way I got stronger.

The crux is for a newbie you really don't need a million exercises. Stick to the big compound lifts and lift heavy. Squats, Deadlift, Bench, Rows, Overhead press. The big watch out though is to build up to lifting heavy. I injured myself a few times trying to lift heavy with bad form before I was ready. So with these compound lifts, form is king, always. They can help you or hurt you depending on form. Expecially the Squat. Start light and work up, as soon as form is compromised, thats it, no heavier until form is good. Books like starting strength describe the compound exercises in a ton of detail. Worth a read.

The other real tricky part for me was getting my calorie intake right. I went from one extreme when I started, eating too little and not getting stronger, to the opposite, eating 3000 cals a day. That worked, I got strong but my body fat ended up at 26%. The trick is to eat just a slight surplus if you want to gain muscle.

Oh the other one often overlooked is sleep. I do my best to get 8 hours. I was only getting 6 or less and that didn't help at all. Muscle is built whilst you sleep and thats when you produce testosterone too. If you dont sleep enough/right, diet and gym will be not be as effective.

Edited by stargazer30 on Thursday 13th October 10:01

[otolith]

Still seeing the trainer four times a week. We've dropped all of the cardio now and we're doing much lower rep ranges and heavier weights. I will adjust my nutrition if I feel it's stopped working, but I'm still going with a moderate calorie deficit, fairly low carbohydrate, 2g protein / kg / day. I don't mind if it takes a while to drop the remaining fat, I'm in this for the long term. I'm also not particularly looking to get massive. The original objective was to increase lean mass to help with weight maintenance long term. If I'm honest, I do like the aesthetic effect of the changes in my body and want to take it a bit further, but I'm not aiming for the brick outhouse look

[Hoofy]

otolith said:

I'm 43 - the nurse doing the DEXA scan warned me at the first one not to expect miracles at my age

That's surprisingly ignorant for a professional health worker to say.

[otolith]

Hoofy said:

That's surprisingly ignorant for a professional health worker to say.

It's based on her experience of walking lots of disappointed punters through their follow-up scans! There's what's possible, and then there's what a lot of people get, I think.

[Hoofy]

otolith said:

Hoofy said:

That's surprisingly ignorant for a professional health worker to say.

It's based on her experience of walking lots of disappointed punters through their follow-up scans! There's what's possible, and then there's what a lot of people get, I think.

I suppose so. I guess it's related to how most people have a NYR approach to gyms.