Help with elderly relatives - Parkinson's + Dementia issues?
Discussion
RC1807 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
If you're not to be involved, it may well be best to take heed...
I'm with you on the scepticism. Anything like this is, of course, a gamble on the part of the provider. They take an educated guess as to how long your MiL is going to last, figure what that'll cost, add a chunk on, and that's what you pay. You are gambling that she lasts substantially longer than they think...
Think of it as a second-hand Gran warranty.
Thanks. I'm not alone! I'm with you on the scepticism. Anything like this is, of course, a gamble on the part of the provider. They take an educated guess as to how long your MiL is going to last, figure what that'll cost, add a chunk on, and that's what you pay. You are gambling that she lasts substantially longer than they think...
Think of it as a second-hand Gran warranty.
I think putting, say, £250k into an annuity that might pay 3% p.a. = £7.5k income is rather pointless if the £250k would be gone in the event of her death. That might be in 10 years. It might be in 10 months. You simply can't tell.
Even after 10 years, £250k paid out has only generated £75k income, so you're effectively down £175k!
Which is what Mrs RC still isn't grasping as she's in denial still over her Mum's condition.....and I can say that without becoming a Eunuch......
I honestly thought my Mum would last into her 90's as she had 'long-life' genes on her side of the family, her Mum, her Mum's sisters and her Mum's Mum all went 90+........but none had dementia, and its a much bigger unknown.
Your MiL has shown quite a dramatic downturn over a fairly short period of time like my Mum did, so she could continue that way and be gone within another year or so, or she could flat line at her current level and go on for another 5 years.
My Mum went from being able to get the bus into town on her own to car home to passing away in just the space of 12 months!!
Her pension covered just under 50% of the care home costs, and so there was enough capital 'in the bank' to cover the remaining 50% for next 15 years, and I knew she didn't have 10 years left in her condition at her age, and unlikely with dementia to be more than 5 at that time.
I think the annuity thing is a better bet for pure old age care home costs.
aeropilot said:
The issue here is the 'dementia' word.
Which is what Mrs RC still isn't grasping as she's in denial still over her Mum's condition.....and I can say that without becoming a Eunuch......
The annuity provider will take that into account, though.Which is what Mrs RC still isn't grasping as she's in denial still over her Mum's condition.....and I can say that without becoming a Eunuch......
But, simple version, the annuity will definitely cost more than "self-insuring", unless the MiL outlives her prediction by a substantial chunk.
Like I said above - second-hand car warranties... You're betting on your car being far less reliable than the average. The big difference is that a care home annuity isn't expected to cover things unexpected costs for a big-ticket one-off, just ongoing predictable costs. More like a service plan, I s'pose.
<thinks> There's a "head gasket" joke, but I'm not going there.
I haven't read all of the pages in this thread and apologise if things I write are repeats of earlier pages.
OP, I feel for you I really do, I have been through the mill with my wife who was diagnosed with early onset of Frontal Temporal Lobe dementia in late 2014, I was working overseas at the time and had to come home for her, she was just 60 years old at the time, we have been together for 40 years, 3 sons all grown up and moved away. I cared for her at home for three years whilst also holding down a full time job (very good boss who gave me so much flexibility to work from home). To cut a long one short, I had to section her under section 2 of the mental health act as the local social services and local GP had failed her massively and she went to hospital for the 28 day "assessment" and whilst in there the hospital decided that the only way forward was to put her under section 3 which allows her to be under "assessment" for 6 months. She only stayed in hospital for a total of about 3 months and has now got all her "drugs" sorted out and has been moved into a Dementia Nursing home, local to me. The nursing home is great and the staff are very good, however my wife is deteriorating at a fast pace. My sons are finding it very difficult to accept, even now after three years of getting the diagnosis, I struggle on a daily basis too and it doesn't get any easier as they go through this horrible disease.
For those that don't know and who might be in the same situation, one of the biggest hurdles to jump is the finances for all of this, I have kept on top of things and have applied for all of the benefits and payments that she was allowed to claim for and I was going through the worry of finding huge weekly payments for care/nursing homes for her. However once she was sectioned under section 3 of the MHA that then kicks in section 117 (Google it), It takes away a huge amount of financial pressure from the family.
Lots of dust in the room as I type this, its so difficult sometime to talk about the issues that surround me.
OP, I feel for you I really do, I have been through the mill with my wife who was diagnosed with early onset of Frontal Temporal Lobe dementia in late 2014, I was working overseas at the time and had to come home for her, she was just 60 years old at the time, we have been together for 40 years, 3 sons all grown up and moved away. I cared for her at home for three years whilst also holding down a full time job (very good boss who gave me so much flexibility to work from home). To cut a long one short, I had to section her under section 2 of the mental health act as the local social services and local GP had failed her massively and she went to hospital for the 28 day "assessment" and whilst in there the hospital decided that the only way forward was to put her under section 3 which allows her to be under "assessment" for 6 months. She only stayed in hospital for a total of about 3 months and has now got all her "drugs" sorted out and has been moved into a Dementia Nursing home, local to me. The nursing home is great and the staff are very good, however my wife is deteriorating at a fast pace. My sons are finding it very difficult to accept, even now after three years of getting the diagnosis, I struggle on a daily basis too and it doesn't get any easier as they go through this horrible disease.
For those that don't know and who might be in the same situation, one of the biggest hurdles to jump is the finances for all of this, I have kept on top of things and have applied for all of the benefits and payments that she was allowed to claim for and I was going through the worry of finding huge weekly payments for care/nursing homes for her. However once she was sectioned under section 3 of the MHA that then kicks in section 117 (Google it), It takes away a huge amount of financial pressure from the family.
Lots of dust in the room as I type this, its so difficult sometime to talk about the issues that surround me.
TooMany2cvs said:
phumy - <hug>
It's hard enough with an elderly parent. With your wife at a relatively young age...? <shudder>
Indeed It's hard enough with an elderly parent. With your wife at a relatively young age...? <shudder>
Two of the people that helped me understand this condition the most were two ladies whose husbands were in the same home as my Mum, and were pretty much there every day for most of the day.
I used to visit her every day when she was in hospital and also when she was transferred to the nursing home and what I found was, if I missed a visit one day or I went away to see my sons for the weekend I felt as guilty as f
k and it hurt so much, however, I have to have a life myself (so I have been told by so many people) so now I try to only go to visit maybe 3 or 4 times a week to lessen the guilt feelings and its kind of working. At least I can get on with the house refurb Im doing at the moment and it does take my mind off of the worries and stress that I have had for the last three and half years, but it doesn't last for long.
k and it hurt so much, however, I have to have a life myself (so I have been told by so many people) so now I try to only go to visit maybe 3 or 4 times a week to lessen the guilt feelings and its kind of working. At least I can get on with the house refurb Im doing at the moment and it does take my mind off of the worries and stress that I have had for the last three and half years, but it doesn't last for long.RC1807 said:
Phumy, oh my. 
It's rather dusty in my office this afternoon.
I'm very sorry.
Keep on keeping on.
Thanks, its like being in a very dark room when you get the diagnosis then very very slowly the light from a flickering candle starts to light the room, but dimly, that's where I am at the moment. It's rather dusty in my office this afternoon.
I'm very sorry.
Keep on keeping on.
phumy said:
I used to visit her every day when she was in hospital and also when she was transferred to the nursing home and what I found was, if I missed a visit one day or I went away to see my sons for the weekend I felt as guilty as fk and it hurt so much...
I bet.k and it hurt so much...BUT...
Did she even notice?
I posted in another thread on SP&L about the LPOA refund scheme but it strikes me there might be a few interested parties on here:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
TooMany2cvs said:
I bet.
BUT...
Did she even notice?
To be honest I cant tell and as she has dementia she cant tell me either so my answer is I really don't know..I still like to think that "she" is still in there and can somehow see me as she used to as before, however I do get the inclination now that when I go to see her she knows who I am but not that I am her husband, if you see what I mean. I just seem to be a face that she know as she greets me and offers a kiss when I leave but there is no conversation and the only response I get is a few phrases that she repeats regularly.BUT...
Did she even notice?
I can only think that it will be better for me, in the long run, if I start to stretch out the visits.
phumy said:
I still like to think that "she" is still in there and can somehow see me as she used to as before, however I do get the inclination now that when I go to see her she knows who I am but not that I am her husband, if you see what I mean.
She probably does know you on first sight each time she sees you, but, likely within a short space of time that recognition has gone.I found that with my Mum, she recognised me immediately when I went to see her, but within 5-10 mins she clearly thought I was someone else, has her memory retention for the 'now' was so short.
At first it was clear she thought I was my Dad, and her memory was pre-me being born. As her condition deteriorated, after that initial recognition faded, it was clear that she thought I was her younger brother as her memory span had regressed to before she had met my Dad.
So, as I talked to members of other visiting families there, I began to understand that it was perhaps best to visit as often as I could (3/4 times a week) but make them short and sweet visits. As soon as she began to 'drift' into her world, after 15-20 mins, it would be time to think about leaving.
Some families only visited once a week or once every two, and stayed for a day or afternoon, treating and trying to talk to their relative as if everything was normal and just get frustrated.
I was lucky that the home was relatively close, so going for 20-30mins every other day wasn't a big deal for me, in terms of logistics/travel but was less stressful for me, and likely less confusing/stressful for my Mum as well.
aeropilot said:
phumy said:
I still like to think that "she" is still in there and can somehow see me as she used to as before, however I do get the inclination now that when I go to see her she knows who I am but not that I am her husband, if you see what I mean.
She probably does know you on first sight each time she sees you, but, likely within a short space of time that recognition has gone.I found that with my Mum, she recognised me immediately when I went to see her, but within 5-10 mins she clearly thought I was someone else, has her memory retention for the 'now' was so short.
At first it was clear she thought I was my Dad, and her memory was pre-me being born. As her condition deteriorated, after that initial recognition faded, it was clear that she thought I was her younger brother as her memory span had regressed to before she had met my Dad.
So, as I talked to members of other visiting families there, I began to understand that it was perhaps best to visit as often as I could (3/4 times a week) but make them short and sweet visits. As soon as she began to 'drift' into her world, after 15-20 mins, it would be time to think about leaving.
Some families only visited once a week or once every two, and stayed for a day or afternoon, treating and trying to talk to their relative as if everything was normal and just get frustrated.
I was lucky that the home was relatively close, so going for 20-30mins every other day wasn't a big deal for me, in terms of logistics/travel but was less stressful for me, and likely less confusing/stressful for my Mum as well.
RC1807 said:
Rizzo: live in carers have their uses, certainly, but you also have to be comfortable that your mum's getting the right help / all the help she needs. Of course, you'll need 1 carers as they split the 24h. Good luck. Interested to know how that works out, please.
She's thinking live in carers for a few days as a respite thing rather than a permanent measure at the moment. She's also going to look at a home with a view to using it for respite care too, but I some of them apparently only take people for a minimum of a week. The carer she's got coming for half a day a fortnight at the moment is great, she's in to walking and outdoorsy stuff so my father (former farmer) gets on with her really well.Getting the stair lift fitted so he can get around the house more easily has mad my mums life a lot easier, she'd done 27 trips upstairs and back one day a while back.
just thought I'd add my 2p in here - as there seam to be a fair few in the same boat as me.
Mum was diagnosed with Dementia a couple of years ago - cut a long story short - she's been in a care home for 2 years now (self funded from savings), and is doing fairly well. Steady state of decline. Care home is pretty decent too.
Dad was diagnosed about a year ago, Alzheimers & Dementia.
Hes been managing at home (Goes to daycare twice a week, with 3 carer visits a day on the days he's at home)
Things took a turn for the worse over the Christmas break, as all the day care stopped.
He stopped eating, became withdrawn, wouldn't interact with anyone.
I got a call on Christmas day from a carer to say that they were concerned about him, as he had disconnected the careline, and set fire to the phone...
Doctor was called out who called for an ambulance, and he was taken into A&E. He turned very aggressive, so they admitted him to a general geriatric ward, where he stayed under sedation for just over 3 weeks.
He was then admitted to an mental health ward under a section 3.
Which is where we are today - he's been there 3 weeks now.
Had the first 'all parties' meeting - not looking good, not really responding well to meds.
So, it looks like a section 3 is coming;
DCC's first thought was he needs to go into a nursing home.
I just said surely you need to get him stable first ; cant assess requirements until we do this? Consultant agreed.
So, we're playing the waiting game.
It's not easy as we live over 150 Miles away
We (myself & sister) have POA already in place - thankfully
Every time the phone rings I think its going to be the hospital ...
Mum was diagnosed with Dementia a couple of years ago - cut a long story short - she's been in a care home for 2 years now (self funded from savings), and is doing fairly well. Steady state of decline. Care home is pretty decent too.
Dad was diagnosed about a year ago, Alzheimers & Dementia.
Hes been managing at home (Goes to daycare twice a week, with 3 carer visits a day on the days he's at home)
Things took a turn for the worse over the Christmas break, as all the day care stopped.
He stopped eating, became withdrawn, wouldn't interact with anyone.
I got a call on Christmas day from a carer to say that they were concerned about him, as he had disconnected the careline, and set fire to the phone...
Doctor was called out who called for an ambulance, and he was taken into A&E. He turned very aggressive, so they admitted him to a general geriatric ward, where he stayed under sedation for just over 3 weeks.
He was then admitted to an mental health ward under a section 3.
Which is where we are today - he's been there 3 weeks now.
Had the first 'all parties' meeting - not looking good, not really responding well to meds.
So, it looks like a section 3 is coming;
DCC's first thought was he needs to go into a nursing home.
I just said surely you need to get him stable first ; cant assess requirements until we do this? Consultant agreed.
So, we're playing the waiting game.
It's not easy as we live over 150 Miles away
We (myself & sister) have POA already in place - thankfully
Every time the phone rings I think its going to be the hospital ...
red997 said:
It's not easy as we live over 150 Miles away
Fun, isn't it?My old man really wasn't at all good on Friday - wouldn't look at us, very much vaguer than before, and physically shrunken. The only thing he wanted to talk about was dying. And who can blame the poor old sod...? It's cruel to let him linger like this.
red997 said:
just thought I'd add my 2p in here - as there seam to be a fair few in the same boat as me.
Mum was diagnosed with Dementia a couple of years ago - cut a long story short - she's been in a care home for 2 years now (self funded from savings), and is doing fairly well. Steady state of decline. Care home is pretty decent too.
Dad was diagnosed about a year ago, Alzheimers & Dementia.
Hes been managing at home (Goes to daycare twice a week, with 3 carer visits a day on the days he's at home)
Things took a turn for the worse over the Christmas break, as all the day care stopped.
He stopped eating, became withdrawn, wouldn't interact with anyone.
I got a call on Christmas day from a carer to say that they were concerned about him, as he had disconnected the careline, and set fire to the phone...
Doctor was called out who called for an ambulance, and he was taken into A&E. He turned very aggressive, so they admitted him to a general geriatric ward, where he stayed under sedation for just over 3 weeks.
He was then admitted to an mental health ward under a section 3.
Which is where we are today - he's been there 3 weeks now.
Had the first 'all parties' meeting - not looking good, not really responding well to meds.
So, it looks like a section 3 is coming;
DCC's first thought was he needs to go into a nursing home.
I just said surely you need to get him stable first ; cant assess requirements until we do this? Consultant agreed.
So, we're playing the waiting game.
It's not easy as we live over 150 Miles away
We (myself & sister) have POA already in place - thankfully
Every time the phone rings I think its going to be the hospital ...
Hi red997 sorry to hear about both parents going down the same "slide", its bad enough losing one to the terrible Dementia but both must be horrid. Reading your post you mention that your dad entered hospital under section 3, normally they will go in under section 2 (28 day assessment) and then if they need more time it will normally be decided within that 28 day at the Care Plan Assessment (CPA) if they are not getting the results they need then they need to extend and go to section 3 (6 months assessment). This happened to my wife where she was in under section 2 then during the CPA it was decided that she needed to be under section 3, which all parties agreed too, once section 3 has been agreed and signed onto section 117 then kicks in automatically and takes over the financial side of the nursing home (Google section 117), it certainly lightens the financial side of things for the family left behind. Just be aware that when he does need to go into a nursing home you will get offers from the local council "Brokerage" department, they do all the deals with the care homes as they look after the payments. In my case I was given a few homes to go look at with a view of them moving my wife to them and to be honest the first handful of places I was sent to were awful, very poor and had rubbish CQC ratings, I kicked up and told them I wouldn't leave a dog in some of them, (They were probably the lower end, price-wise and that's what they were offering). So after looking around a few a refusing to put her into them they then came up trumps with somewhere decent for her and in which I was happy for her to be cared for there. Its a tough old world out there for carers and responsible family members.Mum was diagnosed with Dementia a couple of years ago - cut a long story short - she's been in a care home for 2 years now (self funded from savings), and is doing fairly well. Steady state of decline. Care home is pretty decent too.
Dad was diagnosed about a year ago, Alzheimers & Dementia.
Hes been managing at home (Goes to daycare twice a week, with 3 carer visits a day on the days he's at home)
Things took a turn for the worse over the Christmas break, as all the day care stopped.
He stopped eating, became withdrawn, wouldn't interact with anyone.
I got a call on Christmas day from a carer to say that they were concerned about him, as he had disconnected the careline, and set fire to the phone...
Doctor was called out who called for an ambulance, and he was taken into A&E. He turned very aggressive, so they admitted him to a general geriatric ward, where he stayed under sedation for just over 3 weeks.
He was then admitted to an mental health ward under a section 3.
Which is where we are today - he's been there 3 weeks now.
Had the first 'all parties' meeting - not looking good, not really responding well to meds.
So, it looks like a section 3 is coming;
DCC's first thought was he needs to go into a nursing home.
I just said surely you need to get him stable first ; cant assess requirements until we do this? Consultant agreed.
So, we're playing the waiting game.
It's not easy as we live over 150 Miles away
We (myself & sister) have POA already in place - thankfully
Every time the phone rings I think its going to be the hospital ...
I hope that helps a little.
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