Keto diet - anyone else?
Discussion
grumbledoak said:
David A said:
Is the point not the difference between a diet and a full time lifestyle choice. For a diet for many the risk of being a fat git and needing to get the weight off benefits outweigh the possible risks.
This isn’t a forever thing. Going very low carb and very low sugar could be a long term thing and I genuinely don’t see the risk with that.
Full on hard core total Keto forever the majority of folk will not do - will they ????
"Very low carb and very low sugar" is keto. What do you think "hard core total Keto" is?This isn’t a forever thing. Going very low carb and very low sugar could be a long term thing and I genuinely don’t see the risk with that.
Full on hard core total Keto forever the majority of folk will not do - will they ????
Omegatt said:
Would you say those experts have had a great success in their advice to the population on diet related matters over the last 30 years ? Look round the high street for a clue.
I off an alternate expert opinion
http://www.xperthealth.org.uk/Portals/0/Low%20Carb...
That said I would agree Keto may be ideal to get the pounds off , then revert to a Med type diet, it just seems for many people , me included those addictive carbs cravings take over and over time back to square one.
Wilfully ignorant, IMO. I off an alternate expert opinion
http://www.xperthealth.org.uk/Portals/0/Low%20Carb...
That said I would agree Keto may be ideal to get the pounds off , then revert to a Med type diet, it just seems for many people , me included those addictive carbs cravings take over and over time back to square one.
Those experts were not providing the same advice 30y ago. Nor are they even the same body of people!
Science works by consilience and consensus. The data indicate risks and benefits from keto. These will naturally evolve and be informed by new data.
As for taking a look on the High Street, consider this: most people arrived there by car. They use a trolley to transport their purchases. They go home, in their car, then retire to the settee for the evening. They go to bed, then get up the next day to sit in their car, on their settee, in a van or at a desk for the vast majority of their day. Even if they train regularly, they will most likely be sedentary and weak in comparison to an individual living in conditions that mimic those present for the vast majority of man's evolution.
The conclusion is obvious.
MurderousCrow said:
Even if they train regularly, they will most likely be sedentary and weak in comparison to an individual living in conditions that mimic those present for the vast majority of man's evolution.
Prehistoric women were physically stronger than today's elite female rowers:https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/11/1711...
Physical fitness and body composition go hand in hand. Anyone with a reasonable standard of strength and endurance will have increased muscle mass and decreased fat mass in comparison with a sedentary peer of the same age, sex and height. Regardless of the specific composition of their diet.
MurderousCrow said:
MurderousCrow said:
Even if they train regularly, they will most likely be sedentary and weak in comparison to an individual living in conditions that mimic those present for the vast majority of man's evolution.
Prehistoric women were physically stronger than today's elite female rowers:https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/11/1711...
Physical fitness and body composition go hand in hand. Anyone with a reasonable standard of strength and endurance will have increased muscle mass and decreased fat mass in comparison with a sedentary peer of the same age, sex and height. Regardless of the specific composition of their diet.
MurderousCrow said:
Wilfully ignorant, IMO.
Those experts were not providing the same advice 30y ago. Nor are they even the same body of people!
Science works by consilience and consensus. The data indicate risks and benefits from keto. These will naturally evolve and be informed by new data.
Science does not work by consensus.Those experts were not providing the same advice 30y ago. Nor are they even the same body of people!
Science works by consilience and consensus. The data indicate risks and benefits from keto. These will naturally evolve and be informed by new data.
The experts have changed little: Ancel Keys has been replaced by his successor Walter Willet. The organisations and motivations behind these nutrition "experts" have not changed at all. Nutrition science has not even acknowledged how bad epidemiology is. The Eat Well plate has been renamed and redesigned more than it has changed in content.
Still, blame the patient.
Jim on the hill said:
So you are saying we should all go live in caves and hunt animals? How is this remotely on topic?
That's such a ridiculous straw man it barely merits a response. In case you're not being deliberately obtuse: no. I'm saying that our overall levels and type of daily activity in the modern world are not sufficient to sustain good health. A sedentary lifestyle combined with ridiculously cheap access to low-fibre / low protein, high-carb / high-fat foods, are the primary drivers of both obesity and ill-health in the modern world.grumbledoak said:
Science does not work by consensus.
The experts have changed little: Ancel Keys has been replaced by his successor Walter Willet. The organisations and motivations behind these nutrition "experts" have not changed at all. Nutrition science has not even acknowledged how bad epidemiology is. The Eat Well plate has been renamed and redesigned more than it has changed in content.
This is tin foil hat stuff. Science absolutely does progress via consensus; it's why you are now able to surf the internet - just one of a multitude of possible examples. And there are plenty of scientists 'experts' actually using data to inform their work in this area. It's not easy because epidemiology is complex and is dependent on far more than the contents and amounts on one's plate. Still, stick with simplistic paranoid explanations if it pleases you - just consider that you inhabit an echo chamber.The experts have changed little: Ancel Keys has been replaced by his successor Walter Willet. The organisations and motivations behind these nutrition "experts" have not changed at all. Nutrition science has not even acknowledged how bad epidemiology is. The Eat Well plate has been renamed and redesigned more than it has changed in content.
Healthy eating isn't really a secret - fibre, protein, animal and plant-based fats, carbohydrate at sensible intakes depending on activity.
grumbledoak said:
Still, blame the patient.
Errr, no. I'm pointing out that multiple factors combine to ensure that a sedentary lifestyle is almost inevitable. Far from blaming the patient I'm pointing out the causes.
I'm not sure what the argument is any more regarding Keto tbh- it works, for sure, but it's nothing special over other approaches. The carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity simply isn't that well supported by science. Taubes himself said that even if it was disproven by overwhelming evidence, he'd still not accept it as wrong- tells you a lot.
Anyway, I'm glad some thrive on it, so good for them!
Anyway, I'm glad some thrive on it, so good for them!
didelydoo said:
The carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity simply isn't that well supported by science. Taubes himself said that even if it was disproven by overwhelming evidence, he'd still not accept it as wrong
can you link to this being said somewhere? It's quite an important admission and, no offence, I'd rather not go off "what some guy on PistonHeads said"feef said:
can you link to this being said somewhere? It's quite an important admission and, no offence, I'd rather not go off "what some guy on PistonHeads said"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28074888https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28193517
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25182101
A round up here:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B4IXjgNjlzE/?igshid=16...
There are plenty more. (fault will be found with them all though I'm sure!)
didelydoo said:
feef said:
can you link to this being said somewhere? It's quite an important admission and, no offence, I'd rather not go off "what some guy on PistonHeads said"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28074888https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28193517
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25182101
A round up here:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B4IXjgNjlzE/?igshid=16...
There are plenty more. (fault will be found with them all though I'm sure!)
feef said:
I meant to Taubes making the statement that he'd ignore scientific evidence.
Said it at the 2015 at the Ultimate Evidence Based Fitness Summit, whilst debating with Alan Aragon. ( referenced here https://www.biolayne.com/articles/research/science... And confirmed by Alan Aragon)Around 1.5 years a go I decided to lose some weight as I had lost track of how much I was putting on. I was 21 and weighed just shy of 200lbs or 14stone. Looked at going on a keto diet and intermittent fasting to lose weight and went all in. I would have lunch at 1pm and dinner at 5pm in relatively small portions but nothing too drastic. I would eat nothing and I stress nothing else except for those meals and only drink water. I was very very strict on never deviating from this. I continued with my weight training 1 day pull, 1 day push, 1 day legs and a rest day repeated. I can honestly say after the first week of this it was completely natural feeling and didn't have any cravings for chocolate, sweets, junk food etc. id say in around 1.5 months (definitely under 2) id gone from just over 14 stone to just under 12 where I was more than happy. I am around 5ft 9/10. After that I ditched the keto and eat what I want but stuck with the eating cycle but do break it for meals out or events etc as I don't want it to ruin anything like that. since then stuck around the 12stone mark a little over now but I'm putting it down to putting on a little muscle back on that I inevitably lost when on my diet.
If someone wants to do it try it yourself and see if it works for you and suits your work, social life. No point doing something that makes you feel lethargic or constantly craving.
If someone wants to do it try it yourself and see if it works for you and suits your work, social life. No point doing something that makes you feel lethargic or constantly craving.
chml said:
Does anybody have any good recommendations for UK based sites/books that would have a list of what you can/can't eat whilst doing keto diet? I am going away in May and desperately need to lose some timber.
Thanks
This is a pretty good site, with information and recipesThanks
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto
grumbledoak said:
This is a pretty good site, with information and recipes
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto
Thats grand, thank you! https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto
Mo Farrah is one of the most complete athletes and human bodies you will find.
Was not just the best in the world at 5k and 10k but an established marathon runner also with some incredible runs, for someone who has trained his body to do much shorter distances in world-beating times. He is also or at least was capaple of impressive One Mile times in training.
He did and does follow a glucose-fuelled diet, low fat and high energy. He ignored the Keto approach because, in as many words, he pointed out that yes you can train your body to burn fat as fuel but the downsides are too great. (You could run your Vauxhall Astra on Nitro methane i suppose but how healthy for the engine would that be?)
It's not about ultra high or ultra low fat it's about (low) good fat, at the end of the day. Radical with anything is seldom a great idea and for the human body it is best to follow a lowish but good quality fat / high protein / high fibre diet, with plenty of green vegetables.
I am relatively addicted to the gym. I follow the diet i mentioned. At 58 i weigh 11 stones for my 5 feet 10. I had 15% body fat at my last health check in December. I have trained my body to burn fat without the need to ban countless things most of us enjoy eating.
I can spin-bike for an hour and cover 30 kms and finish relatively fresh. Keto would never improve that anyway.
The bottom line is that Keto came second last out of 35 diets, 2 years running from a large panel of experts for a reason. Arguing against that is like me trying to convince you that a Dacia Duster really is better than an Audi Q3.
Was not just the best in the world at 5k and 10k but an established marathon runner also with some incredible runs, for someone who has trained his body to do much shorter distances in world-beating times. He is also or at least was capaple of impressive One Mile times in training.
He did and does follow a glucose-fuelled diet, low fat and high energy. He ignored the Keto approach because, in as many words, he pointed out that yes you can train your body to burn fat as fuel but the downsides are too great. (You could run your Vauxhall Astra on Nitro methane i suppose but how healthy for the engine would that be?)
It's not about ultra high or ultra low fat it's about (low) good fat, at the end of the day. Radical with anything is seldom a great idea and for the human body it is best to follow a lowish but good quality fat / high protein / high fibre diet, with plenty of green vegetables.
I am relatively addicted to the gym. I follow the diet i mentioned. At 58 i weigh 11 stones for my 5 feet 10. I had 15% body fat at my last health check in December. I have trained my body to burn fat without the need to ban countless things most of us enjoy eating.
I can spin-bike for an hour and cover 30 kms and finish relatively fresh. Keto would never improve that anyway.
The bottom line is that Keto came second last out of 35 diets, 2 years running from a large panel of experts for a reason. Arguing against that is like me trying to convince you that a Dacia Duster really is better than an Audi Q3.
Grindle said:
Mo Farrah is one of the most complete athletes and human bodies you will find.
The rest of what you said may be 100% accurate though I've heard of it working for a lot of athletes (a lot in the combat sport world) so I wouldn't give such a blanket statement but the Mo Farah statement I wont take lying down. You look at his record he didn't win anything until Alberto Salazar came in pumped him full of drugs and then he won everything. Grindle said:
Mo Farrah is one of the most complete athletes and human bodies you will find.
Was not just the best in the world at 5k and 10k but an established marathon runner also with some incredible runs, for someone who has trained his body to do much shorter distances in world-beating times. He is also or at least was capaple of impressive One Mile times in training.
He did and does follow a glucose-fuelled diet, low fat and high energy. He ignored the Keto approach because, in as many words, he pointed out that yes you can train your body to burn fat as fuel but the downsides are too great. (You could run your Vauxhall Astra on Nitro methane i suppose but how healthy for the engine would that be?)
It's not about ultra high or ultra low fat it's about (low) good fat, at the end of the day. Radical with anything is seldom a great idea and for the human body it is best to follow a lowish but good quality fat / high protein / high fibre diet, with plenty of green vegetables.
I am relatively addicted to the gym. I follow the diet i mentioned. At 58 i weigh 11 stones for my 5 feet 10. I had 15% body fat at my last health check in December. I have trained my body to burn fat without the need to ban countless things most of us enjoy eating.
I can spin-bike for an hour and cover 30 kms and finish relatively fresh. Keto would never improve that anyway.
The bottom line is that Keto came second last out of 35 diets, 2 years running from a large panel of experts for a reason. Arguing against that is like me trying to convince you that a Dacia Duster really is better than an Audi Q3.
Kilian Jornet is fat adapted although he does use carbs in his competition and longer training runs, but at the rate and distances he's working at, I don't think he need worry too much about overdoing the carbs.Was not just the best in the world at 5k and 10k but an established marathon runner also with some incredible runs, for someone who has trained his body to do much shorter distances in world-beating times. He is also or at least was capaple of impressive One Mile times in training.
He did and does follow a glucose-fuelled diet, low fat and high energy. He ignored the Keto approach because, in as many words, he pointed out that yes you can train your body to burn fat as fuel but the downsides are too great. (You could run your Vauxhall Astra on Nitro methane i suppose but how healthy for the engine would that be?)
It's not about ultra high or ultra low fat it's about (low) good fat, at the end of the day. Radical with anything is seldom a great idea and for the human body it is best to follow a lowish but good quality fat / high protein / high fibre diet, with plenty of green vegetables.
I am relatively addicted to the gym. I follow the diet i mentioned. At 58 i weigh 11 stones for my 5 feet 10. I had 15% body fat at my last health check in December. I have trained my body to burn fat without the need to ban countless things most of us enjoy eating.
I can spin-bike for an hour and cover 30 kms and finish relatively fresh. Keto would never improve that anyway.
The bottom line is that Keto came second last out of 35 diets, 2 years running from a large panel of experts for a reason. Arguing against that is like me trying to convince you that a Dacia Duster really is better than an Audi Q3.
Grindle said:
Mo Farrah is one of the most complete athletes and human bodies you will find.
Was not just the best in the world at 5k and 10k but an established marathon runner also with some incredible runs, for someone who has trained his body to do much shorter distances in world-beating times. He is also or at least was capaple of impressive One Mile times in training.
He did and does follow a glucose-fuelled diet, low fat and high energy. He ignored the Keto approach because, in as many words, he pointed out that yes you can train your body to burn fat as fuel but the downsides are too great. (You could run your Vauxhall Astra on Nitro methane i suppose but how healthy for the engine would that be?)
It's not about ultra high or ultra low fat it's about (low) good fat, at the end of the day. Radical with anything is seldom a great idea and for the human body it is best to follow a lowish but good quality fat / high protein / high fibre diet, with plenty of green vegetables.
I am relatively addicted to the gym. I follow the diet i mentioned. At 58 i weigh 11 stones for my 5 feet 10. I had 15% body fat at my last health check in December. I have trained my body to burn fat without the need to ban countless things most of us enjoy eating.
I can spin-bike for an hour and cover 30 kms and finish relatively fresh. Keto would never improve that anyway.
The bottom line is that Keto came second last out of 35 diets, 2 years running from a large panel of experts for a reason. Arguing against that is like me trying to convince you that a Dacia Duster really is better than an Audi Q3.
Are you still here? Most people do Keto to lose weight and it works. You are just clogging up the thread with rediculous comparisons now. Was not just the best in the world at 5k and 10k but an established marathon runner also with some incredible runs, for someone who has trained his body to do much shorter distances in world-beating times. He is also or at least was capaple of impressive One Mile times in training.
He did and does follow a glucose-fuelled diet, low fat and high energy. He ignored the Keto approach because, in as many words, he pointed out that yes you can train your body to burn fat as fuel but the downsides are too great. (You could run your Vauxhall Astra on Nitro methane i suppose but how healthy for the engine would that be?)
It's not about ultra high or ultra low fat it's about (low) good fat, at the end of the day. Radical with anything is seldom a great idea and for the human body it is best to follow a lowish but good quality fat / high protein / high fibre diet, with plenty of green vegetables.
I am relatively addicted to the gym. I follow the diet i mentioned. At 58 i weigh 11 stones for my 5 feet 10. I had 15% body fat at my last health check in December. I have trained my body to burn fat without the need to ban countless things most of us enjoy eating.
I can spin-bike for an hour and cover 30 kms and finish relatively fresh. Keto would never improve that anyway.
The bottom line is that Keto came second last out of 35 diets, 2 years running from a large panel of experts for a reason. Arguing against that is like me trying to convince you that a Dacia Duster really is better than an Audi Q3.
I don't see many aspiring Mo Farahs on here.
Agreed arguing against you is pointless so why don't you stop arguing, jog on and leave us crazy Keto people alone.
I for one am not an extreme athlete, nor would I wish to be one.
As a relatively ‘normal’ human being I prefer to eat what is required for my fitness and health, not what boffins in white coats have decided they want to ‘prove’ has some beneficial effect. I need protein and energy plus vitamins, minerals and essential fatty acids. All of which are found in animal products, especially ruminants. There is no requirement for carbohydrates or fibre. I’m not saying don’t eat them if you want to, but they are not essential for health - unlike fats and protein.
Granted, plants contain fats and protein but in an inferior form and way less dense. You’d need to consume far more calories of plant food to even match the nutrient density of meat, and even then it’s in a less bio available form so you need to consume even more.
Accepted science is lagging behind because it’s not feasible to devise tests to prove it. You can’t lock away groups of people for extended periods (years, decades, lifetime) forcing them to follow differing diets and assessing outcomes.
Far too many assertions, conclusions and ultimately advice is drawn from weak epidemiological studies.
In my experience N = 1, my first forty years eating a standard western ‘balanced’ diet left me overweight, weak and feeling rundown.
I decided to clean up my diet and joined a gym. Still a ‘balanced’ diet but cut the established junk foods in favour of fresh fruits and veg with lean meats and complex carbs. Things got better for a while but in the end I ended up getting back to where I was previously. Various diets and lifestyles came and went from Atkins to full on card carrying vegan.
Most proved effective in the beginning, likely due to elimination of various processed foods that tended to creep in over time with the preceding diet. Veganism especially appeared to be the most effective as it was so restrictive, but was ultimately the least successful. For the first three to six months I felt great, but over time I was noticeably weaker, I was getting aches and pains, lacked stamina and endurance and just felt lousy. I lasted 14 months eating strict vegan.
Meat heals.
Keto followed which was fairly good, but I got sick and tired of having to watch what I ate all the time for fear of getting kicked out of ketosis.
Zero carb/carnivore is working for me, and I suspect most others. I’m calmer, less anxiety, fitter and stronger, excellent libido, healthy appetite and sharper than I’ve ever been.
I’m not concerned about the supposed consensus on what is a healthy diet. I look about me and see the results every day.
As a relatively ‘normal’ human being I prefer to eat what is required for my fitness and health, not what boffins in white coats have decided they want to ‘prove’ has some beneficial effect. I need protein and energy plus vitamins, minerals and essential fatty acids. All of which are found in animal products, especially ruminants. There is no requirement for carbohydrates or fibre. I’m not saying don’t eat them if you want to, but they are not essential for health - unlike fats and protein.
Granted, plants contain fats and protein but in an inferior form and way less dense. You’d need to consume far more calories of plant food to even match the nutrient density of meat, and even then it’s in a less bio available form so you need to consume even more.
Accepted science is lagging behind because it’s not feasible to devise tests to prove it. You can’t lock away groups of people for extended periods (years, decades, lifetime) forcing them to follow differing diets and assessing outcomes.
Far too many assertions, conclusions and ultimately advice is drawn from weak epidemiological studies.
In my experience N = 1, my first forty years eating a standard western ‘balanced’ diet left me overweight, weak and feeling rundown.
I decided to clean up my diet and joined a gym. Still a ‘balanced’ diet but cut the established junk foods in favour of fresh fruits and veg with lean meats and complex carbs. Things got better for a while but in the end I ended up getting back to where I was previously. Various diets and lifestyles came and went from Atkins to full on card carrying vegan.
Most proved effective in the beginning, likely due to elimination of various processed foods that tended to creep in over time with the preceding diet. Veganism especially appeared to be the most effective as it was so restrictive, but was ultimately the least successful. For the first three to six months I felt great, but over time I was noticeably weaker, I was getting aches and pains, lacked stamina and endurance and just felt lousy. I lasted 14 months eating strict vegan.
Meat heals.
Keto followed which was fairly good, but I got sick and tired of having to watch what I ate all the time for fear of getting kicked out of ketosis.
Zero carb/carnivore is working for me, and I suspect most others. I’m calmer, less anxiety, fitter and stronger, excellent libido, healthy appetite and sharper than I’ve ever been.
I’m not concerned about the supposed consensus on what is a healthy diet. I look about me and see the results every day.
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