Keto diet - anyone else?

[Kenny Powers]

alock said:

Are there any real studies that show the benefits of a keto diet?

There are lots of positive scientific studies but you won’t find them in any government literature. Some say that the diet of a successfully managed diabetic is the perfect diet. I’m not going to argue that point, but if you give the notion any merit, then you may be interested in the study I did;

When diagnosed with type 2 diabetes in January 2017, I was told that I had a degenerative chronic disease. It would get worse as I got older. My medication would almost certainly increase, and it was possible that eventually I would become insulin dependant. Ultimately some form of related complication would end my life.

I followed the government guidelines for one year, and although I was able to maintain reasonable glucose control, I soon developed searing peripheral neuropathy pain in my hands & feet, and diabetic retinopathy and macular edema in my eyes. The food deprivation gradually became a real struggle. The stress began to cause fluctuations in my blood control. The drugs weren’t really working and the cycle spiralled into depression, to the point where I was convinced I would have to start injecting. As per the original prognosis.

Then one day I said fk this. No way can this bullst be right. I immediately adopted the ketogenic lifestyle and vowed to do the exact polar opposite of everything I’d been told. Six months later I am drug-free. I have blood glucose control to shame a non-diabetic. All my pain is gone, and my retinas are slowly healing. I feel fantastic, I look better, I enjoy my food immensely and I never feel deprived.

The only loser in my scenario is the agriculture industry and the manufacturers of Metformin.

[NoVetec]

alock said:

I've been trying to read up on keto diets, and all I can find are positive non-scientific opinions and neutral scientific opinions. Are there any real studies that show the benefits of a keto diet?

Here are a couple that show no benefit...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25007189/
"Trials show weight loss in the short-term irrespective of whether the diet is low CHO or balanced. There is probably little or no difference in weight loss and changes in cardiovascular risk factors up to two years of follow-up when overweight and obese adults, with or without type 2 diabetes, are randomised to low CHO diets and isoenergetic balanced weight loss diets."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046/
"KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted."

One here albeit based on obese patients: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27167...

One regarding composition and wellbeing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC55066...

Not keto, but a LCHF v HCLF diet study: http://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/1900694/eff...

There's a few relating to keto and diabetes, here's a handful:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC13250...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22673594

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19099589

For a bit of balance, here's a diabetes one that has a caveat:

http://obesity.imedpub.com/benefits-of-ketogenic-d...

"Patients with T2DM on oral hypoglycemic agents who were put on ketogenic diet were at increased risk of developing hypoglycemia, so reducing the dose of the hypoglycemic agents should be considered."

[oldbanger]

A couple more from me


https://m.phys.org/news/2017-12-fat-fuel-reverse-c...


https://www.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/ajpendo...

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ppar/2018/4827643...

https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2018-05-keto-diet...

Eta

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.1...

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/in-depth/carbs-higher-r...


The normal heart burns fatty acids and then ketone bodies. It only burns glucose under stress ( also lactose etc).

Saturated and mono unsaturated fats are substantially easier to metabolise than poly unsaturated fats (which are basically nature’s equivalent of 2 stroke).

The sick heart loses the ability to burn fatty acids and then are almost wholly reliant on ketone bodies, a by product of fatty acid metabolism.

See
https://www.the-scientist.com/the-literature/in-fa... For a good explanation of how it all works

Edited by oldbanger on Wednesday 8th August 20:03

[Phil.]

Even the DM is promoting the benefits of a Keto diet

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6036361/...

[LordGrover]

Look up Peter Attia and Stephen Phinney. Both credible medical boffins.

[Kenny Powers]

LordGrover said:

Look up Peter Attia and Stephen Phinney. Both credible medical boffins.

And Prof. Tim Noakes. South African A1 rated scientist, high-carb-advocating sports nutritionist and marathon runner who was unknowingly insulin resistant and developed T2DM. Turned it all around with ketosis and has done some exhaustive research.

[bexVN]

Interesting reading, though not particularly in depth. This is more regarding the potential of increasing the risk of type 2 diabetes for those who aren't diabetic yet and using the diet and not for those already type 2 and using this diet.

They also admit it is not conclusive as study so far only on mice.

Obviously as with all diets it is a continued learning curve.

https://news.sky.com/story/keto-diets-could-increa...

[grumbledoak]

bexVN said:

Interesting reading, though not particularly in depth. This is more regarding the potential of increasing the risk of type 2 diabetes for those who aren't diabetic yet and using the diet and not for those already type 2 and using this diet.

They also admit it is not conclusive as study so far only on mice.

Obviously as with all diets it is a continued learning curve.

https://news.sky.com/story/keto-diets-could-increa...

The paper they are referring to is probably this one:
https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10....

The "keto" diet fed to the mice, Teklan TD.96355 is mostly Crisco. Crisco is made from cotton seed oil, a waste product in that industry, and though it is sold as edible I don't suggest you eat it yourselves. You might also wonder about the timing of the availability of this "edible" oil, among others, and the rise of heart disease as a big killer.

[bexVN]

grumbledoak said:

bexVN said:

Interesting reading, though not particularly in depth. This is more regarding the potential of increasing the risk of type 2 diabetes for those who aren't diabetic yet and using the diet and not for those already type 2 and using this diet.

They also admit it is not conclusive as study so far only on mice.

Obviously as with all diets it is a continued learning curve.

https://news.sky.com/story/keto-diets-could-increa...

The paper they are referring to is probably this one:
https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10....

The "keto" diet fed to the mice, Teklan TD.96355 is mostly Crisco. Crisco is made from cotton seed oil, a waste product in that industry, and though it is sold as edible I don't suggest you eat it yourselves. You might also wonder about the timing of the availability of this "edible" oil, among others, and the rise of heart disease as a big killer.

So yes, basically needs a lot more research to conclude if this is a possibility or not!

[Kenny Powers]

That may as well have been written by a grain farmer. Unbelievable. Not consuming carbohydrate increases insulin resistance? Extreme restriction diet? We may as well all give up any hope of ever turning the ship around with nonsense like this making the news.

Follow the money.

[grumbledoak]

Kenny Powers said:

Follow the money.

I expect a lot of MSM scare stories about keto now it is becoming mainstream. And "carnivore" is getting some attention too. They will try to do what they did to Atkins, and saturated fat, and salt.

[Kenny Powers]

grumbledoak said:

I expect a lot of MSM scare stories about keto now it is becoming mainstream. And "carnivore" is getting some attention too. They will try to do what they did to Atkins, and saturated fat, and salt.

And it will work. For better or worse I’m sure it’s already put Bex off. Mission accomplished. It doesn’t even have to make sense so long as it works.

I love how the article implies that no one on Earth understands what causes T2DM. It is caused by consumption of carbohydrate in people with low insulin sensitivity. I’d love to know how stopping carb consumption both reverses and causes diabetes simultaneously

More junk science.

[Kenny Powers]

Saturday morning ramble. Sometimes I’m pragmatic about all this crap, but often it actually angers me.

If I may take Bex as a pertinent example. By her own admission she is overweight and prediabetic. This means she is becoming resistant to her own insulin. This is bad. In this scenario there is no doubt at all that properly managed nutritional ketosis would be beneficial both in lowering her blood glucose and insulin concentrations, whilst simultaneously allowing her to effortlessly shed weight and begin more effectively exercising. There are no negatives at all. Only positives.

Yet all the official advice tells her to continue to consume grains, and a “scientific” article has quite likely just convinced her that the relief from her symptoms will actually give her diabetes. It is a travesty. The organisations influencing and paying for this science know exactly what they are doing are fully complicit. No one cares if she develops full blown diabetes, it will be an opportunity for someone to sell here more grains and some medication.

It’s remarkably easy how vast populations can be hoodwinked by bullst.

FFS

[hairyben]

grumbledoak said:

I expect a lot of MSM scare stories about keto now it is becoming mainstream. And "carnivore" is getting some attention too. They will try to do what they did to Atkins, and saturated fat, and salt.

perhaps, but its more complex than that today.

I first did a low carb diet about 12 years ago, as a means to shed a little weight, and back then it was considered a little fruity. But today, thanks in large to the availability of information via the internet and social media etc, the benefits are being widely understood and publicised, to the ridiculous effect that many medical practioners are very happy for you to follow the diet but cannot recommend you do or suggest it. There is some very interesting research and study under way by respected people.

But as you say there will be a kickback as there's a lot of vested interests, and as with so much the availability of information today also seems to mean that people can convince themselves and others of anything they want.

[Kenny Powers]

hairyben said:

...to the ridiculous effect that many medical practioners are very happy for you to follow the diet but cannot recommend you do or suggest it.

This is wholly inline with my own personal experience. No one in my healthcare ‘team’ had ever mentioned ketosis to me during my first year with T2DM. I had only ever been given the official dietary advice of a low-fat healthy whole grain approach (the one that nearly killed me).

With that in my mind I was fully expecting to be widely ridiculed when revealing that the cause of my complete symptom reversal was the adoption of nutritional ketosis. Instead, the reaction was one of complete but unspoken approval. Both my nurse and GP seemed extremely impressed with my decision and my progress. But at the same time it was clear to me that neither were officially allowed to show approval of the “K” word.

No doubt it’s a taboo subject in medical school, an establishment which of course could never be influenced by industry science. Oh no sir

[bexVN]

Kenny Powers said:

Saturday morning ramble. Sometimes I’m pragmatic about all this crap, but often it actually angers me.

If I may take Bex as a pertinent example. By her own admission she is overweight and prediabetic. This means she is becoming resistant to her own insulin. This is bad. In this scenario there is no doubt at all that properly managed nutritional ketosis would be beneficial both in lowering her blood glucose and insulin concentrations, whilst simultaneously allowing her to effortlessly shed weight and begin more effectively exercising. There are no negatives at all. Only positives.

Yet all the official advice tells her to continue to consume grains, and a “scientific” article has quite likely just convinced her that the relief from her symptoms will actually give her diabetes. It is a travesty. The organisations influencing and paying for this science know exactly what they are doing are fully complicit. No one cares if she develops full blown diabetes, it will be an opportunity for someone to sell here more grains and some medication.

It’s remarkably easy how vast populations can be hoodwinked by bullst.

FFS

Luckily as someone with medical knowledge (albeit animal based!!) I am more open minded than that

I am definitely not turning my back on the idea but I will research more and more myself. I will in the end choose what I feel will be right for me and no one else and not be pressured either way. I am concentrating on just weight loss (18lb down so far) for now but once I have that sorted the next step will be a long term diet that I can enjoy and fit into a busy family life and antisocial work hours, yet still reduce my chances of becoming diabetic etc etc I have no intention of becoming a 'full blown diabetic'

I will be continuing to visit here for information as well.

My point of the article is to show that more evidence based studies and peer reviewed papers need to be published and made readily available.

[Kenny Powers]

Seems fair. You’re free to make your own choices. I just don’t like to think of people making life altering decisions based on bad information that doesn’t affect the lives of those pedalling it

[bexVN]

Kenny Powers said:

Seems fair. You’re free to make your own choices. I just don’t like to think of people making life altering decisions based on bad information that doesn’t affect the lives of those pedalling it

The keto diet is definitely becoming more well known so hopefully it is gaining momentum which will overpower the government take on diabetic management. At my appt the other day they were discussing the diet and ho some are finding it has a positive impact.

There does need to be care as well. Not everyone will do it properly or follow it properly. This is the issue I am finding with people wanting to feed raw food to their pets, not everyone checks how to do it properly and that causes other health issues.

[loughran]

Has anyone found blurry eyesight to be a side effect of the Keto diet ?

[grumbledoak]

loughran said:

Has anyone found blurry eyesight to be a side effect of the Keto diet ?

No. Not heard that one before.