Steroids ?

[otolith]

ORD said:

Not much chance of avoiding the relevant pollutants, unfortunately.

All anecdotal of course, but I'm pretty damn sure that the typical 25 year old man these days is carrying a lot less muscle than even 10 years ago. Back when I left university, men with noddles arms were noteworthy. Now it's utterly normal.

I suppose it's possible that your two samples are differently biased? Seems to me that there are a lot more young people going to gyms now than was the case when I was young, and that the mainstream images in popular culture that men judge themselves against have got bigger?

[ORD]

otolith said:

ORD said:

Not much chance of avoiding the relevant pollutants, unfortunately.

All anecdotal of course, but I'm pretty damn sure that the typical 25 year old man these days is carrying a lot less muscle than even 10 years ago. Back when I left university, men with noddles arms were noteworthy. Now it's utterly normal.

I suppose it's possible that your two samples are differently biased? Seems to me that there are a lot more young people going to gyms now than was the case when I was young, and that the mainstream images in popular culture that men judge themselves against have got bigger?

Seems to me to have fragmented / polarised. Certainly seem to be more buff men around. But there are also, it seems to me, many more very weak men. Werent there more normal-sized men back in the day?

I am just thinking back to the groups of youngsters that joined up to my old karate club each year. Some would be very weak indeed; a tiny proportion would be buff; but the majority would be sort of normal size young men. If I think about the young men in the gym I now attend, or the young men I meet through work, or the friends of my youngest brother, all these groups are very different from what I used to see. Now there will typically be a few buff guys but mostly really weak skinny fat guys. I am sure that kind of physique used to be rare 15 years ago.

[helix402]

The youth of today heh! All living in an online world (not like Pistonheads at all!) and driving everywhere in their brand new leased cars with over assisted pas. Not like the olden days when men were men and all that stuff and men ate coal.
No wonder they’re weak eating McDonalds and ready meals, not gravel. (Not all youth are weak, some are very strong and agile and fit blah blah).

[Pvapour]

Halb said:

I think mucking about with genes is hurtling towards us. Especially the super rich chasing the immortal button.

Pvapour said:

find others body language very interesting especially from race to race.

Can you elucidate, PP?

French - very unconfrontational race in general, very friendly, quite quiet in gym, train like theyre afraid of weight and sweat as its not cool tombe struggling but they watch the english and americans who are big and train heavy quite intensely but not in a bad way, not territorial in any way.

Italians - far more outwardly agressive in their approach to driving and training, more territorial but if you show any agression whilst training (im naturally this way but dont in public gyms as i dont like making people uncomfortable) they give you a very wide birth, they seem to relinquish their territory very quickly.

Germans - matter of fact, couldnt care what youre doing as theyre counting their efficiency at what theyre doing

Ozies - very friendly and talky and just a very mutual respect of what everyones in there to do, more a team atmosphere

Americans - most disillusioned beleif in themselves, they honestly think what theyre doing is better and they look better no matter what, they’ll ask about how long u been training, how many time etc etc just so they can tell you what they do and why its better, never founded but im not in there to talk so move on

Dubai - only trained here once for 3 weeks, mainly muslims and so very territorial, really hated me moving about the gym with confidence, they group allot but never said anything, I suspect if a big juicer had been there he might have but then propper big guys dont feel so threatened and just get on with their thing.

In general bigger guys in the gym are not intimidated so theres less to read, same for older folk (also like me) they just want to get on and theyve lost their inhabitions, its the younger to 30s that are trying to impress still that are the most entertaining, even more so now im old n grey but have the body i do, its so bloody interesting, we actually enter the gym seperately sometimes just so she can watch, she studied phsyc. so body language is very interesting to her especialy comparing different nations.

Eta: steroids shortening life? They sure as hell dont lengthen it Which is where my focus is

Edited by Pvapour on Wednesday 1st November 20:29

[Halb]

Brilliant read, ta!

[otolith]

ORD said:

Seems to me to have fragmented / polarised. Certainly seem to be more buff men around. But there are also, it seems to me, many more very weak men. Werent there more normal-sized men back in the day?

I am just thinking back to the groups of youngsters that joined up to my old karate club each year. Some would be very weak indeed; a tiny proportion would be buff; but the majority would be sort of normal size young men. If I think about the young men in the gym I now attend, or the young men I meet through work, or the friends of my youngest brother, all these groups are very different from what I used to see. Now there will typically be a few buff guys but mostly really weak skinny fat guys. I am sure that kind of physique used to be rare 15 years ago.

That fragmentation does sound plausible, yes. Perhaps more men are working out but fewer are generally living lifestyles which require muscle? More sedentary jobs, more sedentary leisure activities? Though maybe if you were mostly seeing martial arts learners and aren’t now, they were unrepresentative?

[popeyewhite]

Pvapour said:

Eta: steroids shortening life? They sure as hell dont lengthen it Which is where my focus is

There are no studies that show bodybuilding extends your life. A number of studies show it improves the quality of life as you age, but not as much as weightlifting (which doesn't extend your life either). Both bodybuilding and weightlifting can lead to heart problems (dilated IVC and torn aorta), as can cardio vascular work (LVH). Whether steroids lengthen or shorten your life is as relevant if you take them sensibly as how irresponsibly you drive your car. Depending on your ancestry and gender factors involved in human longevity are: access to health care, hygiene, diet and nutrition, exercise, lifestyle, crime rates and not being of Afro-Caribbean descent (heart disease). I hope your 'focus' is broad.

[Pvapour]

popeyewhite said:

Pvapour said:

Eta: steroids shortening life? They sure as hell dont lengthen it Which is where my focus is

There are no studies that show bodybuilding extends your life. A number of studies show it improves the quality of life as you age, but not as much as weightlifting (which doesn't extend your life either). Both bodybuilding and weightlifting can lead to heart problems (dilated IVC and torn aorta), as can cardio vascular work (LVH). Whether steroids lengthen or shorten your life is as relevant if you take them sensibly as how irresponsibly you drive your car. Depending on your ancestry and gender factors involved in human longevity are: access to health care, hygiene, diet and nutrition, exercise, lifestyle, crime rates and not being of Afro-Caribbean descent (heart disease). I hope your 'focus' is broad.

it is training is as essential as cleaning my teeth and as easily forgotten once I've done it, my life will be as long as it is, none of us define this, i enjoy my training and it just so happens i'll stay strong in later years and be able to do things that my non training piers won't be able to, god knows how long a life i'll lead but at least i'll be leading it whilst its there

i've not been that interested in bodybuilding for many years, couldn't even tell you the current mr olympia, I just like training i don't have to be a book worm on what to do and what not to anymore as I've learnt all i want to around training, my hand is dealt and i'm taking it to the grave with me happy in the knowledge that i never took steroids, proud of myself for that.

Edited by Pvapour on Thursday 2nd November 14:43

[popeyewhite]

Pvapour said:

it is training is as essential as cleaning my teeth and as easily forgotten once I've done it, my life will be as long as it is, none of us define this, i enjoy my training and it just so happens i'll stay strong in later years and be able to do things that my non training piers won't be able to, god knows how long a life i'll lead but at least i'll be leading it whilst its there

Quite. And it's inadvertently a good comment on the gene-altering injection to increase muscle mass scenario - whether people take steroids or not the long term lifters do it because they love it as exercise and as a reward they gain muscle. And anyway there's no guarantee you'll actually be strong with enhanced genes and larger muscles... .

Pvapour said:

i've not been that interested in bodybuilding for many years, couldn't even tell you the current mr olympia, I just like training i don't have to be a book worm on what to do and what not to anymore as I've learnt all i want to around training, my hand is dealt and i'm taking it to the grave with me happy in the knowledge that i never took steroids, proud of myself for that.

Edited by Pvapour on Thursday 2nd November 14:43

Whatever floats your boat.

[ORD]

popeyewhite said:

Whatever floats your boat.

You'll be potentially stronger with bigger muscles. For example, strength gains amongst intermediate lifters correlate very closely with muscle gains. You can of course gain muscle without getting stronger, but you're potentially stronger.

[chris watton]

helix402 said:

The youth of today heh! All living in an online world (not like Pistonheads at all!) and driving everywhere in their brand new leased cars with over assisted pas. Not like the olden days when men were men and all that stuff and men ate coal.
No wonder they’re weak eating McDonalds and ready meals, not gravel. (Not all youth are weak, some are very strong and agile and fit blah blah).

I do know that all the people I knew when I was younger had manual jobs, me included. (mid '80's/early '90's). A lot of it was hard physical work for 8-9 hours per day, and perhaps overtime at the weekend. You needed a certain level of fitness, and, sometimes strength to do these jobs. Plus, most of us walked 2 or 3 miles to and from our place of work.

I assume there is a lot less of this type of heavy industry work now, and if there is, who would/is now doing the labour?

[Pvapour]

popeyewhite said:

Whatever floats your boat.

Likewise

[popeyewhite]

ORD said:

You'll be potentially stronger with bigger muscles.

Depending on the fiber and your definition of strength. However, smaller muscles can also be potentially stronger than bigger muscles.

[watwenwong]

Pvapour said:

....with me happy in the knowledge that i never took steroids, proud of myself for that.

This is interesting to me. Normally people are proud of their achievements, be it doing something, or resisting doing something- what is it that you're proud off? Did you have the urge to try but stop your self- is the resistance a source of proudness? If not- what is it?

I built a body without steroids btw- then, when the I was ready, I went over and above what was possible naturally and continued the process.

I'm the opposite you see- I'm proud that I took the jump, despite all the old wife's tales about the dangers of them. Most people wouldn't, long term, decide to do that- out of fear, or simple misunderstanding. And I'm glad I did, I'd not change a thing. I enjoy every aspect- from the planning, to the execution- it adds a new layer to training. It's part of my lifestyle.

Again, I'm aware ill informed people jump on in a hurry, with little knowledge and it doesn't go well- but I'm not one of them- I studied up for a long, long time, on almost everything relating to steroids before I decided I was ready.

[Pvapour]

watwenwong said:

Pvapour said:

....with me happy in the knowledge that i never took steroids, proud of myself for that.

This is interesting to me. Normally people are proud of their achievements, be it doing something, or resisting doing something- what is it that you're proud off? Did you have the urge to try but stop your self- is the resistance a source of proudness? If not- what is it?

For me it’s not all about the achievement itself, (though fulfilling a goal is incredibly satisfying, the ‘win’ feeling is short lived and soon forgotten, what you will remember however is the journey you took to get there.

I see recreational steroids as cheating, gaining results quicker through drugs at the detriment to ones health (I’ve read enough and seen enough over 35 years and that’s enough for me thanks)

I can now look back and be proud that I took the longer harder route to what I have today, along this journey I have gained a discipline and longevity to my training that I have never seen rivalled by the yo yo steroid users I’ve seen in my life, steroid users to me look like the January gym goers that are gone by March, here today gone tomorrow.

Yes I’m proud, not only of the physique I built that rivals most steroid users but more importantly the way I did it, the hard way, there’s no substance to quick gains, in all aspects of life in my book

Proud I didn’t cheat.

I’m not convinced what you’re experiencing is pride fella, one thing I have noticed in all steroid users when talking to them is the strange way they’ll skew reality to justify what they are doing so they feel ok about it, maybe the skew was there before taking them, I don’t know but the phsycotic (so) effects of use seem very apparent to me, it’s not always to do with anger.

Edited by Pvapour on Friday 3rd November 11:56

[ORD]

Despite what a lot of users will say, the evidence is absolutely unequivocal that building muscle is vastly easier and vastly faster with even modest use of anabolic steroids. It is, to that extent, pretty obviously "cheating" in a big way.

In many sports, though, it is "cheat or dont bother", which makes it a little more complicated. There are plenty of sports in which a clean athlete would stand no chance.

[Pvapour]

ORD said:

Despite what a lot of users will say, the evidence is absolutely unequivocal that building muscle is vastly easier and vastly faster with even modest use of anabolic steroids. It is, to that extent, pretty obviously "cheating" in a big way.

In many sports, though, it is "cheat or dont bother", which makes it a little more complicated. There are plenty of sports in which a clean athlete would stand no chance.

Quite, which is why I am clear to state recreational steroid taking

[watwenwong]

Pvapour said:

For me it’s not all about the achievement itself, (though fulfilling a goal is incredibly satisfying, the ‘win’ feeling is short lived and soon forgotten, what you will remember however is the journey you took to get there.

I see recreational steroids as cheating, gaining results quicker through drugs at the detriment to ones health (I’ve read enough and seen enough over 35 years and that’s enough for me thanks)

I can now look back and be proud that I took the longer harder route to what I have today, along this journey I have gained a discipline and longevity to my training that I have never seen rivalled by the yo yo steroid users I’ve seen in my life, steroid users to me look like the January gym goers that are gone by March, here today gone tomorrow.

Yes I’m proud, not only of the physique I built that rivals most steroid users but more importantly the way I did it, the hard way, there’s no substance to quick gains, in all aspects of life in my book

Proud I didn’t cheat.

I’m not convinced what you’re experiencing is pride fella, one thing I have noticed in all steroid users when talking to them is the strange way they’ll skew reality to justify what they are doing so they feel ok about it, maybe the skew was there before taking them, I don’t know but the phsycotic (so) effects of use seem very apparent to me, it’s not always to do with anger.

Edited by Pvapour on Friday 3rd November 11:56

Cheating?

Steroids aren't cheating- you use them to go beyond what is possible naturally- That's not cheating, it just moving on to a new stage of development. If you use them to cheat, then you're cheating- but if you use them to continue progress, when you've reached you're natural potential, it's progress.

It's only cheating if you cheat- I view them as a way of continued progress. I don't intend to spin my wheels, so I can tell people I didn't cheat. I have been training for a long, long time- this isn't a flash in the pan- I'd not be gaining anything right now, was I not using.

Many natural guys call steroids cheating- not sure if it's jealousy, or perhaps anger that they've not tried- I've noticed a lot of them skew reality to justify that they may be smaller, and weaker (tongue in cheek btw)

Also, for the record- I'm not psychotic, nor have I skewed anything I've said to justify my use- regardless of what you're convinced of. As you don't know me, that is a pretty ridiculous statement to make! But I'm think skinned, so not to worry.

[popeyewhite]

ORD said:

Despite what a lot of users will say, the evidence is absolutely unequivocal that building muscle is vastly easier and vastly faster with even modest use of anabolic steroids. It is, to that extent, pretty obviously "cheating" in a big way.

Does it really have to degenerate to this? OK then let's get it out of the way then move on..

One thing recreational steroid use isn't is cheating. Lets just be factual about this this for a minute. There is nothing dishonest about taking PEDS if you're not competing. You're not breaking any rules (personal use is legal in the UK) or taking unfair advantage as it's an open field, ie anyone can try them if they want. They are neither illegal nor as dangerous as alcohol if you approach their use intelligently. Time to stop sniping fellas. It's your choice not to use them, if you see others getting bigger/stronger than you quicker then you make your choice and stick with it, but don't try and make a moral point to justify your position, because you're on very rocky ground if competition isn't involved.

Pvapour said:

Quite, which is why I am clear to state recreational steroid taking

As your knowledge of steroids is questionable at best can't you stick to lifestyle comments - they were quite interesting

[Pvapour]

watwenwong said:

Pvapour said:

For me it’s not all about the achievement itself, (though fulfilling a goal is incredibly satisfying, the ‘win’ feeling is short lived and soon forgotten, what you will remember however is the journey you took to get there.

I see recreational steroids as cheating, gaining results quicker through drugs at the detriment to ones health (I’ve read enough and seen enough over 35 years and that’s enough for me thanks)

I can now look back and be proud that I took the longer harder route to what I have today, along this journey I have gained a discipline and longevity to my training that I have never seen rivalled by the yo yo steroid users I’ve seen in my life, steroid users to me look like the January gym goers that are gone by March, here today gone tomorrow.

Yes I’m proud, not only of the physique I built that rivals most steroid users but more importantly the way I did it, the hard way, there’s no substance to quick gains, in all aspects of life in my book

Proud I didn’t cheat.

I’m not convinced what you’re experiencing is pride fella, one thing I have noticed in all steroid users when talking to them is the strange way they’ll skew reality to justify what they are doing so they feel ok about it, maybe the skew was there before taking them, I don’t know but the phsycotic (so) effects of use seem very apparent to me, it’s not always to do with anger.

Edited by Pvapour on Friday 3rd November 11:56

Cheating?

Steroids aren't cheating- you use them to go beyond what is possible naturally- That's not cheating, it just moving on to a new stage of development. If you use them to cheat, then you're cheating- but if you use them to continue progress, when you've reached you're natural potential, it's progress.

It's only cheating if you cheat- I view them as a way of continued progress. I don't intend to spin my wheels, so I can tell people I didn't cheat. I have been training for a long, long time- this isn't a flash in the pan- I'd not be gaining anything right now, was I not using.

Many natural guys call steroids cheating- not sure if it's jealousy, or perhaps anger that they've not tried- I've noticed a lot of them skew reality to justify that they may be smaller, and weaker (tongue in cheek btw)

Also, for the record- I'm not psychotic, nor have I skewed anything I've said to justify my use- regardless of what you're convinced of. As you don't know me, that is a pretty ridiculous statement to make! But I'm think skinned, so not to worry.

it is not about progressing further it’s about you getting frustrated with how long and hard the natural route is, progressing further more ‘quickly I and many others have shown, you can gain a large physique naturally but it takes eons and is a much harder path than drugs

Pretty sure this is where the discussion will end for me as I won’t change my mind on the cheating stance and pretty sure your beliefs are will be set in stone, I don’t find it an interesting debate, I was only interested in how you saw it and I’m satisfied on that score

take care matey.