Discussion
popeyewhite said:
Does it really have to degenerate to this? OK then let's get it out of the way then move on..
One thing recreational steroid use isn't is cheating. Lets just be factual about this this for a minute. There is nothing dishonest about taking PEDS if you're not competing. You're not breaking any rules (personal use is legal in the UK) or taking unfair advantage as it's an open field, ie anyone can try them if they want. They are neither illegal nor as dangerous as alcohol if you approach their use intelligently. Time to stop sniping fellas. It's your choice not to use them, if you see others getting bigger/stronger than you quicker then you make your choice and stick with it, but don't try and make a moral point to justify your position, because you're on very rocky ground if competition isn't involved.
This is what I was getting at above- it did seem like there was perhaps some ill feeling towards me/my explanations.One thing recreational steroid use isn't is cheating. Lets just be factual about this this for a minute. There is nothing dishonest about taking PEDS if you're not competing. You're not breaking any rules (personal use is legal in the UK) or taking unfair advantage as it's an open field, ie anyone can try them if they want. They are neither illegal nor as dangerous as alcohol if you approach their use intelligently. Time to stop sniping fellas. It's your choice not to use them, if you see others getting bigger/stronger than you quicker then you make your choice and stick with it, but don't try and make a moral point to justify your position, because you're on very rocky ground if competition isn't involved.
But each to their own, I thought I'd just share my views, as someone with actual experience in the matter.
popeyewhite said:
ORD said:
Despite what a lot of users will say, the evidence is absolutely unequivocal that building muscle is vastly easier and vastly faster with even modest use of anabolic steroids. It is, to that extent, pretty obviously "cheating" in a big way.
Does it really have to degenerate to this? OK then let's get it out of the way then move on.. One thing recreational steroid use isn't is cheating. Lets just be factual about this this for a minute. There is nothing dishonest about taking PEDS if you're not competing. You're not breaking any rules (personal use is legal in the UK) or taking unfair advantage as it's an open field, ie anyone can try them if they want. They are neither illegal nor as dangerous as alcohol if you approach their use intelligently. Time to stop sniping fellas. It's your choice not to use them, if you see others getting bigger/stronger than you quicker then you make your choice and stick with it, but don't try and make a moral point to justify your position, because you're on very rocky ground if competition isn't involved.
Pvapour said:
Quite, which is why I am clear to state recreational steroid taking
As your knowledge of steroids is questionable at best can't you stick to lifestyle comments - they were quite interesting 
Smile and move on ...
Pvapour said:
it is not about progressing further it’s about you getting frustrated with how long and hard the natural route is, progressing further more ‘quickly I and many others have shown, you can gain a large physique naturally but it takes eons and is a much harder path than drugs
Pretty sure this is where the discussion will end for me as I won’t change my mind on the cheating stance and pretty sure your beliefs are will be set in stone, I don’t find it an interesting debate, I was only interested in how you saw it and I’m satisfied on that score
take care matey.
Once you've reached your genetic potential, you don't just overcome it, and progress slowly- you stop, and after a while, you regress. That's the 'natural' route I'm afraid. I would bet my bottom dollar I train as hard as you- so claiming your route is the harder one seems an odd thing to suggest.Pretty sure this is where the discussion will end for me as I won’t change my mind on the cheating stance and pretty sure your beliefs are will be set in stone, I don’t find it an interesting debate, I was only interested in how you saw it and I’m satisfied on that score
take care matey.
But, as I said, each to their own
You also take care
popeyewhite said:
ORD said:
Despite what a lot of users will say, the evidence is absolutely unequivocal that building muscle is vastly easier and vastly faster with even modest use of anabolic steroids. It is, to that extent, pretty obviously "cheating" in a big way.
Does it really have to degenerate to this? OK then let's get it out of the way then move on.. One thing recreational steroid use isn't is cheating. Lets just be factual about this this for a minute. There is nothing dishonest about taking PEDS if you're not competing. You're not breaking any rules (personal use is legal in the UK) or taking unfair advantage as it's an open field, ie anyone can try them if they want. They are neither illegal nor as dangerous as alcohol if you approach their use intelligently. Time to stop sniping fellas. It's your choice not to use them, if you see others getting bigger/stronger than you quicker then you make your choice and stick with it, but don't try and make a moral point to justify your position, because you're on very rocky ground if competition isn't involved.
Pvapour said:
For me it’s not all about the achievement itself, (though fulfilling a goal is incredibly satisfying, the ‘win’ feeling is short lived and soon forgotten, what you will remember however is the journey you took to get there.
I see recreational steroids as cheating, gaining results quicker through drugs at the detriment to ones health (I’ve read enough and seen enough over 35 years and that’s enough for me thanks)
I can now look back and be proud that I took the longer harder route to what I have today, along this journey I have gained a discipline and longevity to my training that I have never seen rivalled by the yo yo steroid users I’ve seen in my life, steroid users to me look like the January gym goers that are gone by March, here today gone tomorrow.
Yes I’m proud, not only of the physique I built that rivals most steroid users but more importantly the way I did it, the hard way, there’s no substance to quick gains, in all aspects of life in my book
Proud I didn’t cheat.
I'm pretty much on the same page, PP. Always enjoyed surpassing others and being 100% natural, being blessed with great genetics helps. If I had ever gone into pro sports, and I wish I had now, I would have been on peds. I see recreational steroids as cheating, gaining results quicker through drugs at the detriment to ones health (I’ve read enough and seen enough over 35 years and that’s enough for me thanks)
I can now look back and be proud that I took the longer harder route to what I have today, along this journey I have gained a discipline and longevity to my training that I have never seen rivalled by the yo yo steroid users I’ve seen in my life, steroid users to me look like the January gym goers that are gone by March, here today gone tomorrow.
Yes I’m proud, not only of the physique I built that rivals most steroid users but more importantly the way I did it, the hard way, there’s no substance to quick gains, in all aspects of life in my book
Proud I didn’t cheat.
After saying that, as age goes on, and being a tad vain, I am finding myself more curious about the anti-ageing effects of 'extras.'
This vice film popped up on my yourube thing
Juiced Up - The Consequences of Steroids: SWOLE Ep. 3
https://youtu.be/qELlhoe9Nb8
Halb said:
This vice film popped up on my yourube thing
Those guys are definitely posterboys for steroids..... Long time users who look like sJuiced Up - The Consequences of Steroids: SWOLE Ep. 3
https://youtu.be/qELlhoe9Nb8
t, and seem to be absolute morons. A clickbate vice video. But reading the title of it tells you that already.....Looked into steroids but never all that seriously.
If it was a case of taking a course of steroids, getting allot bigger and then quitting and keeping your gains I'd probably give it a go.
From what I've read it sounds more like a lifestyle of blast and cruise. When you stop you end up worse than you were to begin with, you'll lose all the gains from the gear and then some. You might be waiting a year for your body to be producing the same amount of testosterone and it might never get back as high as it would have been before the gear.
Could be completely wrong as my info comes from youtube, reddit and bodybuilding.com.
If you kept the dose fairly low, could you make good gains without putting your body totally out of whack and holding onto most of the gains?
Does HGH suffer from the same problem?
If it was a case of taking a course of steroids, getting allot bigger and then quitting and keeping your gains I'd probably give it a go.
From what I've read it sounds more like a lifestyle of blast and cruise. When you stop you end up worse than you were to begin with, you'll lose all the gains from the gear and then some. You might be waiting a year for your body to be producing the same amount of testosterone and it might never get back as high as it would have been before the gear.
Could be completely wrong as my info comes from youtube, reddit and bodybuilding.com.
If you kept the dose fairly low, could you make good gains without putting your body totally out of whack and holding onto most of the gains?
Does HGH suffer from the same problem?
Pretty much any introduction of external test will shut you down. And, on very rare occasions, that shut down can be permanent. That's why the choice to try should NOT be taken lightly.
When you go above you're genetic potential, size wise, and come 'off', gradually you will go back down towards your original top natural size. Only if you can't restart you're natural test, will you then start to drop below your top natural size. If protocols at followed, then this is rarely an issue. A lot of people tend to see some guys shrink down smaller than they were, but that's usually due to them giving up on training as well as the drugs- you'll not maintain anything if you stop training.
Pretty much the only way to retain size over and above your natural potential, and continue to grow is not to come off- this means a TRT dose, pretty much for ever, with blasts should you want to grow. There are health benefits to TRT doses, when you're over a certain age. The opposite when you blast.
Most people who cycle on and off, PCT between cycles, never actually wait long enough for their natural test to restart. They'll hop back on too soon when they see their gains diminish. PCT drugs are harsh, something people often overlook.
When you go above you're genetic potential, size wise, and come 'off', gradually you will go back down towards your original top natural size. Only if you can't restart you're natural test, will you then start to drop below your top natural size. If protocols at followed, then this is rarely an issue. A lot of people tend to see some guys shrink down smaller than they were, but that's usually due to them giving up on training as well as the drugs- you'll not maintain anything if you stop training.
Pretty much the only way to retain size over and above your natural potential, and continue to grow is not to come off- this means a TRT dose, pretty much for ever, with blasts should you want to grow. There are health benefits to TRT doses, when you're over a certain age. The opposite when you blast.
Most people who cycle on and off, PCT between cycles, never actually wait long enough for their natural test to restart. They'll hop back on too soon when they see their gains diminish. PCT drugs are harsh, something people often overlook.
You're really selling this 
I'm nowhere near my natural limits yet; I could easily make huge gains in size and strength just by tweaking my nutrition. As it is though, I'm happy at my current rate of progress and have no desire to enhance my progress with steroids.
Which kinda leads me neatly only my next point: The concept of reaching one's natural limits in terms of size and strength is being mentioned quite a lot here.
While I'm not pointing my finger at anyone in particular, what I will say is that the people *ACTUALLY* hitting their natural ceiling are going to be exceedingly far and few between, imo.
The human body's limits are seriously high, and I believe most recreational steroid users are using them as a stepping stone or a fast-forward button, rather than because they have actually physically hit the limits of what they are capable of naturally.
I'm nowhere near my natural limits yet; I could easily make huge gains in size and strength just by tweaking my nutrition. As it is though, I'm happy at my current rate of progress and have no desire to enhance my progress with steroids.
Which kinda leads me neatly only my next point: The concept of reaching one's natural limits in terms of size and strength is being mentioned quite a lot here.
While I'm not pointing my finger at anyone in particular, what I will say is that the people *ACTUALLY* hitting their natural ceiling are going to be exceedingly far and few between, imo.
The human body's limits are seriously high, and I believe most recreational steroid users are using them as a stepping stone or a fast-forward button, rather than because they have actually physically hit the limits of what they are capable of naturally.
TheJimi said:
You're really selling this
I'm nowhere near my natural limits yet; I could easily make huge gains in size and strength just by tweaking my nutrition. As it is though, I'm happy at my current rate of progress and have no desire to enhance my progress with steroids.
Which kinda leads me neatly only my next point: The concept of reaching one's natural limits in terms of size and strength is being mentioned quite a lot here.
While I'm not pointing my finger at anyone in particular, what I will say is that the people *ACTUALLY* hitting their natural ceiling are going to be exceedingly far and few between, imo.
The human body's limits are seriously high, and I believe most recreational steroid users are using them as a stepping stone or a fast-forward button, rather than because they have actually physically hit the limits of what they are capable of naturally.
Not a sales man for them I'm nowhere near my natural limits yet; I could easily make huge gains in size and strength just by tweaking my nutrition. As it is though, I'm happy at my current rate of progress and have no desire to enhance my progress with steroids.
Which kinda leads me neatly only my next point: The concept of reaching one's natural limits in terms of size and strength is being mentioned quite a lot here.
While I'm not pointing my finger at anyone in particular, what I will say is that the people *ACTUALLY* hitting their natural ceiling are going to be exceedingly far and few between, imo.
The human body's limits are seriously high, and I believe most recreational steroid users are using them as a stepping stone or a fast-forward button, rather than because they have actually physically hit the limits of what they are capable of naturally.
but I think accurate information is few and far between- most forums have terrible advice....I've trained for a long time, and I'm not getting any younger. I saw progress slow, and basically halt in terms of size. Possibly more strength to add, but size was maxed out- I stayed like that for a few years- diet and training on point, before deciding I wanted to progress again.
Not a fast forward- more of a restart. And that's the thing- after a certain point, you won't grow anymore muscle without just getting fat.
watwenwong said:
Not a fast forward- more of a restart. And that's the thing- after a certain point, you won't grow anymore muscle without just getting fat.
My thoughts...I think for maximum effect/least longterm harm there is a time in every bloke's life, say late twenties/early thirties, where mental drive, dedication, youth and the ability of a return to homeostasis are at their maximum. I have friends who stopped steroids a decade ago but did numerous cycles when younger and have recovered fully. They have kept 90% of their lean mass, but have continued training. It seems to me the 'young' of today are far less responsible and just tan the arse off all kinds of AASs, with a "so what??" attitude. A lot of these kids(!) are nowhere near their full growth potential, but want the short cut. And don't forget steroids actually make you feel great 80% of the time - and utterly brilliant when you're lifting. So for them it's a great ride. But they'll hit the ground so hard when it's all over - mental issues, injury, ill-health etc etc. Once in their forties they may never train again.However, there is another type of user who approaches steroids with the same pragmatism as other tasks in life - passing training courses to gain better employment/gaining qualifications in higher education/building their own house (you get my drift - these people are self-determined and on the way to what is referred to as self-actualisation) - they are a means to an end. After years and years of training and building up knowledge and experience they're within 90% of their practical growth/fitness potential. But there is one element to training they've never had the time for...up 'til now... .
TheJimi said:
Would be inclined to agree with that 
Except for the scope of 90% practical growth bit. Well, I don’t disagree per-se, but 90% of potential is a still a LOT, and even those people are in the minorities – never mind those who have actually hit the ceiling.
Sure, very much the minority. Except for the scope of 90% practical growth bit. Well, I don’t disagree per-se, but 90% of potential is a still a LOT, and even those people are in the minorities – never mind those who have actually hit the ceiling.
popeyewhite said:
However, there is another type of user who approaches steroids with the same pragmatism as other tasks in life - passing training courses to gain better employment/gaining qualifications in higher education/building their own house (you get my drift - these people are self-determined and on the way to what is referred to as self-actualisation) - they are a means to an end. After years and years of training and building up knowledge and experience they're within 90% of their practical growth/fitness potential. But there is one element to training they've never had the time for...up 'til now... .
I'd like to think I fall into this category- I've the time, understanding and patience to do what I do, I've built up to it for over 20 years- I'm well read on the subject, and I approach it with a view to longevity. I'll always train, and this is, as I see it, the next step in my development. Even if I'd started at 90% of my peak natural potential (though mass wise, I believe it was higher than that)- I'm currently sitting well above 120% of that now. Something that's simply not possible without Steroids.Just reading through all this, been very interesting.
I was (am? lol) a relatively scrawny chap, didn't start the gym until I was 30, that was to run and row and stuff, then started on weights at 33 (now 37).
There's a part of me that really wants 'easy' option to build a bit more muscle, but I'm terrified of needles, so that's a no go.
I work long hours, I spend an inordinate amount of time ferrying my kids about and i'm worried i've 'missed the boat' on my testosterone levels...missing those key early years when my testosterone was so high my nob would jump out of my pants if a girl so much as uncovered arm in the same postcode.
Still I plod on, gym 4 times a week for 40 mins or so...just feel like i'd like to level the playing field....a bit of T to replace the lack of time I can commit and the age? It's an unusual thought process I appreciate, but i'm curious. I doubt I could get involved to be honest, but there's been some nice discussion.
I was (am? lol) a relatively scrawny chap, didn't start the gym until I was 30, that was to run and row and stuff, then started on weights at 33 (now 37).
There's a part of me that really wants 'easy' option to build a bit more muscle, but I'm terrified of needles, so that's a no go.
I work long hours, I spend an inordinate amount of time ferrying my kids about and i'm worried i've 'missed the boat' on my testosterone levels...missing those key early years when my testosterone was so high my nob would jump out of my pants if a girl so much as uncovered arm in the same postcode.
Still I plod on, gym 4 times a week for 40 mins or so...just feel like i'd like to level the playing field....a bit of T to replace the lack of time I can commit and the age? It's an unusual thought process I appreciate, but i'm curious. I doubt I could get involved to be honest, but there's been some nice discussion.
To those of you thinking of taking steroids, are you really sure you've reached your natural limit? I see so many guys trainig completely inappropriately and then complaining about their lack of progress. I don't think most people should even think about steroids until they've done a serious stint of training based around progressive overload on squats/deadlifts/pull ups/dips.
I have no issue with steroids, but it's not a sensible option if you're not training right on the first place.
I have no issue with steroids, but it's not a sensible option if you're not training right on the first place.
CaptainSensib1e said:
To those of you thinking of taking steroids, are you really sure you've reached your natural limit? I see so many guys trainig completely inappropriately and then complaining about their lack of progress. I don't think most people should even think about steroids until they've done a serious stint of training based around progressive overload on squats/deadlifts/pull ups/dips.
I have no issue with steroids, but it's not a sensible option if you're not training right on the first place.
Abbreviated hit routine using squat dead weighted dips, maybe trap bar instead of the squat - deads, ....perfect form, using micro plates to slowly up the load, most people after 6 months would look loads better, and it wouldn't cost a whole load of ££££. I have no issue with steroids, but it's not a sensible option if you're not training right on the first place.
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