Reversing Type 2 Diabetes

[Kenny Powers]

The Joe Rogan podcasts/videos are a lot to bite off in one go, as they all seem to be at least a couple of hours long. I did recently see the Nina Teicholz interview though, which was very good

[C Lee Farquar]

Kenny Powers said:

Pupp said:

Thanks... so, +2 after yesterday's eve meal was 5.2. Seems fine to me.
This morning after a good 7 hours' sleep with no further food at 5.4. Guess this just shows your body doesn't always respond as you expect it to

That’s perfectly normal, in the early hours of the morning, usually some time around 04:00, hormone releases signal the liver to secrete glucose into the blood in order to give you energy for waking up. This period, know as the dawn phenomenon, is typically problematic for diabetics, as their insulin tends to be ineffective at countering the rise in blood glucose. The mechanism is called gluconeogenesis. Diabetics can mitigate this effect by ensuring their body has minimal glycogen stores. Exercising, and not eating carbohydrate or excessive protein help achieve this for them.

My levels are higher in the morning and stay high if I fast. My lowest readings are invariably two hours after a meal.

Doctor said not concerned, it's the long term average that counts, which is decreasing.

I did read about dawn phenomenon, my initial thoughts were it seems to be mainly spouted by American quacks. Is there a reliable source to read about it?

[Pupp]

With no food and only black coffee ingested, at 13:45 was 4.9... then, at 21:30 after swinging by the local (3 Morettis over 2.5 hours finished 30 mins earlier) 3.9.... was expecting that to be 7+

Now eaten with only carbs being sweetcorn. Who knows at midnight

[Kenny Powers]

C Lee Farquar said:

Kenny Powers said:

Pupp said:

Thanks... so, +2 after yesterday's eve meal was 5.2. Seems fine to me.
This morning after a good 7 hours' sleep with no further food at 5.4. Guess this just shows your body doesn't always respond as you expect it to

That’s perfectly normal, in the early hours of the morning, usually some time around 04:00, hormone releases signal the liver to secrete glucose into the blood in order to give you energy for waking up. This period, know as the dawn phenomenon, is typically problematic for diabetics, as their insulin tends to be ineffective at countering the rise in blood glucose. The mechanism is called gluconeogenesis. Diabetics can mitigate this effect by ensuring their body has minimal glycogen stores. Exercising, and not eating carbohydrate or excessive protein help achieve this for them.

My levels are higher in the morning and stay high if I fast. My lowest readings are invariably two hours after a meal.

Doctor said not concerned, it's the long term average that counts, which is decreasing.

I did read about dawn phenomenon, my initial thoughts were it seems to be mainly spouted by American quacks. Is there a reliable source to read about it?

I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking? 75% of diabetics exeperience dawn phenomenon. Actually, it occurs in everyone as their hormones signal the body to prepare to wake from sleep. It’s an issue for diabetics because their insulin level or sensitivity is typically ineffective at countering it and moving the glucose into the cells. You said in your opening sentence that it’s an issue for you. It was an issue for me, and it’s an issue for three quarters of diabetics. It’s definitely not “quackery”

The reason your blood glucose remains high in the morning until you eat, is because your liver is manufacturing glucose in order to get you through the fast. As a diabetic, your liver is also insulin resistant and largely ignores your pancreas when it signals that you have enough glucose. This will continue until you eat because it has glycogen stores to draw from. You can mitigate this by ensuring your glycogen stores are always running on fumes.

With regard to your glucose concentration average (a1c) being more important than moment-to-moment, in my opinion this is only somewhat true. The average is important, but at the same time, spikes are toxic and undesirable in any measure of time. I think doctors have been conditioned to tell their patients that spikes aren’t important because it lends credence to the idea that carbohydrates are ok for diabetics.

[Kenny Powers]

Pupp said:

With no food and only black coffee ingested, at 13:45 was 4.9... then, at 21:30 after swinging by the local (3 Morettis over 2.5 hours finished 30 mins earlier) 3.9.... was expecting that to be 7+

Now eaten with only carbs being sweetcorn. Who knows at midnight

I understand your curiosity but my best advice to you now is to put the meter in a drawer and forget about it. Perhaps just test your fasting glucose once a month. You’re going to see it up and down all over the place throughout every day, and it will become a real chore trying to fathom the results.

You’re not diabetic so you don’t need to worry. Me mindful of refined carbs, don’t eat too much fruit or drink many fruit juices, and you’ll likely stay that way

[Halb]

Kenny Powers said:

The Joe Rogan podcasts/videos are a lot to bite off in one go, as they all seem to be at least a couple of hours long. I did recently see the Nina Teicholz interview though, which was very good

Yeah ut;s tue, of the three ones I've mentioned and wanna watch, I've only completely watched the layne/dom one, and halfway through my fave Rhona Patrick, and I do have lots of free time. Who is Nina?
THere is a good channel called jreclips that sometimes takes 20 minute chunks that deal with certain topics.

a nice lil vid on keto/lc and diabetes

Obesity & Diabetes Explained: The Overflow Phenomenon

What I've Learned Published on 1 Oct 2018
https://youtu.be/xlfZvnV4v50

Can you Cure Diabetes? | Does Fat cause Type 2 Diabetes?

What I've Learned Published on 24 Sep 2018
https://youtu.be/hpOP_HKeazU

[Kenny Powers]

Thank you. I’ll have a look at those a bit later this evening

[Pupp]

Kenny Powers said:

I understand your curiosity but my best advice to you now is to put the meter in a drawer and forget about it. Perhaps just test your fasting glucose once a month. You’re going to see it up and down all over the place throughout every day, and it will become a real chore trying to fathom the results.

You’re not diabetic so you don’t need to worry. Me mindful of refined carbs, don’t eat too much fruit or drink many fruit juices, and you’ll likely stay that way

Always curious

[bexVN]

Guess what has just popped up on the old Daily Fail Web page!

https://dailym.ai/2C5cNMl

[Kenny Powers]

Project Confusion gathers pace. Next week “eating dairy products increases risk of a meteor strike by 800% according to scientists”

[Kenny Powers]

Halb said:

Yeah ut;s tue, of the three ones I've mentioned and wanna watch, I've only completely watched the layne/dom one, and halfway through my fave Rhona Patrick, and I do have lots of free time. Who is Nina?
THere is a good channel called jreclips that sometimes takes 20 minute chunks that deal with certain topics.

a nice lil vid on keto/lc and diabetes

Obesity & Diabetes Explained: The Overflow Phenomenon

What I've Learned Published on 1 Oct 2018
https://youtu.be/xlfZvnV4v50

Can you Cure Diabetes? | Does Fat cause Type 2 Diabetes?

What I've Learned Published on 24 Sep 2018
https://youtu.be/hpOP_HKeazU

Informative videos

Nina Teicholz is a nutrition science researcher and journalist, and author of the very excellent The Big Fat Surprise, a book that children should have to read at school

Edited by Kenny Powers on Thursday 11th October 06:23

[dandarez]

Kenny Powers said:

Halb said:

Yeah ut;s tue, of the three ones I've mentioned and wanna watch, I've only completely watched the layne/dom one, and halfway through my fave Rhona Patrick, and I do have lots of free time. Who is Nina?
THere is a good channel called jreclips that sometimes takes 20 minute chunks that deal with certain topics.

a nice lil vid on keto/lc and diabetes

Obesity & Diabetes Explained: The Overflow Phenomenon

What I've Learned Published on 1 Oct 2018
https://youtu.be/xlfZvnV4v50

Can you Cure Diabetes? | Does Fat cause Type 2 Diabetes?

What I've Learned Published on 24 Sep 2018
https://youtu.be/hpOP_HKeazU

Informative videos

Nina Teicholz is a nutrition science researcher and journalist, and author of the very excellent The Big Fat Surprise, a book that children should have to read at school

Edited by Kenny Powers on Thursday 11th October 06:23

She's an American who is getting plaudits from some in recent years, and not the only one now going against the low fat crap. But it's nothing new. Englishman and World Champion archer, Barry Groves, who sadly died in 2013 (here in the UK was advocating full fat and endorsing all dairy and criticising the so-called Med diet as far back as the early 1990s - I still have some recordings of his radio interviews with clueless nutritionists at the time, each and every one who would be advocating 'low fat' this, 'low fat' that. He could hold his ground with all of them.

[Kenny Powers]

dandarez said:

She's an American who is getting plaudits from some in recent years, and not the only one now going against the low fat crap. But it's nothing new. Englishman and World Champion archer, Barry Groves, who sadly died in 2013 (here in the UK was advocating full fat and endorsing all dairy and criticising the so-called Med diet as far back as the early 1990s - I still have some recordings of his radio interviews with clueless nutritionists at the time, each and every one who would be advocating 'low fat' this, 'low fat' that. He could hold his ground with all of them.

To be fair, even if we ignore two million years of human evolution, the LCHF “fad diet” was
‘discovered’ in the 19th century.

[LordGrover]

Definitely recommend Barry Groves' book: The Calorie Fallacy.

[boxst]

Has anyone been on the “Desmond” course? I think it’s a great initiative by the NHS however I was just wondering if now that I know quite a lot and have effectively managed mine whether it’s going to annoy me.

It was booked when I was first diagnosed back in March and I don’t want to spoil it for anyone else on the course. Some of whom will have not had access to Pistonheads ( ;-) ) and are trying to manage with metformine and a not very good diet.

Edit: to make it read properly

Edited by boxst on Saturday 13th October 16:40

[C Lee Farquar]

I've been on the Diabetes Together course. Most attendees were in denial and had read nothing about the disease. If you've decided to do a low carb diet and are reasonably positive then I'd say it was a waste of time. Pretty much 'don't give anything up, just do it in moderation'

One good thing that did come out is that I was put forward to volunteer for the Oxford Biobank. They are keeping information for diabetes research. As well as giving a blood sample and various other measurements you have a DEXA scan which shows where your body fat is. You get a copy of this. I was keen to do this as I wanted to know where I was with my visceral fat.

They give you breakfast afterwards, less helpfully it's toast and cereal!

[zygalski]

Indeed.
Obese people are also known to be the most likely group to under report calorie intake.

Must thank Kenny for telling us that over eating carbs is bad for you.
I had no idea that cramming my face with pasta, pizza, chips & crisps could lead to health problems.

Seems like a fair few people are in denial & not just at the diabetics clinic.

[zygalski]

How many of those who have type 2 diabetes have given up alcohol completed?
How many don't have takeaways and rarely eat junk food?
Do you exercise at least 3 times a week for an hour or more each time?
Do you eat plenty of fresh fruit, veg, white meat & fish?
Can you honestly say that your total daily calorie intake is less than 2000 calories a day?
Is your waist-hip ratio under 0.95?

I find all this blaming successive governments for poor health advice very misleading & hand-wringing.
As I said before, for the last 40 or so years I can remember a balanced diet, giving up smoking, limiting the amount of alcohol and taking regular exercise as being the repeated mantra.

[bexVN]

I was supposed to go to one of these diabetes wellness groups. I had the pre check 'interview' and she said they would contact me re course dates etc. This has reminded me that I haven't heard from them! That was over two months ago now.

I am not too worried as I am not in denial (well, not anymore!) and I know what I need to do (hence why over 32lb weight loss so far) but I also did want to show on record that I was doing everything being offered etc. Not sure how to chase it up as it is separate from my Dr's.

[C Lee Farquar]

zygalski said:

How many of those who have type 2 diabetes have given up alcohol completed?
How many don't have takeaways and rarely eat junk food?
Do you exercise at least 3 times a week for an hour or more each time?
Do you eat plenty of fresh fruit, veg, white meat & fish?
Can you honestly say that your total daily calorie intake is less than 2000 calories a day?
Is your waist-hip ratio under 0.95?

I was diagnosed in June.

Gave up beer but have about 3 bottles of red wine a week. I have no rice, pasta, potatoes or bread. No cheat days. I did go to France for a week and did have a little bread with some of the meals.

We used to have take aways or eat out two or three nights a week. Stopped that, I've had a couple of kebabs without the pita bread.

No formal exercise but I do run rather than walk quite often. I don't go to a gym.

I have an apple a day, occasional strawberries and raspberries. No other fruit. I eat all meat and mainly above ground veg. No cook in sauces, pretty much all cooked from scratch.

I don't count calories but avidly avoid carbs. Generally I google keto recipes, I've found them very good. I don't know about the waist hip ratio.

HbA1c: On diagnosis 11.5, after 4 weeks with diet and 1000mg Metformin a day 8.5, 12 weeks 6.5.

I'd lost a stone in the 6 months prior to diagnosis and have lost a stone since. Currently 14 stone, 52 years old, 18.5% body fat, nearly all visceral.

I feel better than I have done for years, by some margin.

Perhaps most importantly I prefer what I'm eating now. I never feel bloated, I've found I can cook better Chinese and Indian than the take aways we were having.

My one sin is ice cream, I've bought low carb but struggle with moderation. I'm
trying not to buy any. I did think potatoes, beer and bread would be difficult to give up but I've found that relatively easy.