Reversing Type 2 Diabetes
Discussion
An 800 calorie diet is not sustainable. It will result in massive reductions in lean body mass after most of the fat is gone.
Any bodybuilder or lifter will tell you that the body starts to consume LBM at much higher body fat percentages than 5%. My best guess is that it gets quite desperate at around 10%, but a fair bit of muscle gets sacrificed even above that, on a harsh enough diet.
Diabetics typically have too little muscle in the first place, because they are typically sedentary.
Any bodybuilder or lifter will tell you that the body starts to consume LBM at much higher body fat percentages than 5%. My best guess is that it gets quite desperate at around 10%, but a fair bit of muscle gets sacrificed even above that, on a harsh enough diet.
Diabetics typically have too little muscle in the first place, because they are typically sedentary.
Kenny Powers said:
That may all well be true (much of it isn’t), but it might be easier just to eat a low carb, natural fat diet and reverse diabetes without hunger rather than starving on 800 calories. As always this idea has the horse and the cart the wrong way around. Fixing obesity doesn’t fix diabetes. Fixing the cause of both fixes both. Starving on liquid for three months may well reverse it, as I stated, but it’s a stupid idea.
But as ORD states, the NHS cannot change course. If they change course now and recommend specific carbohydrate restriction as a diabetes intervention, they are effectively admitting that all their current best advice on managing it is complete fiction.
Yes but that wont help someone who is 10 stone overweight will it? But as ORD states, the NHS cannot change course. If they change course now and recommend specific carbohydrate restriction as a diabetes intervention, they are effectively admitting that all their current best advice on managing it is complete fiction.
Its clear that this diet isn't for everyone, you think its hard to change the NHS course its harder to change a patient who has developed type 2 and has a 50 bmi and has chronic health issues because of it due to years of unhealthy eating
Take away all food and needing to cook or plan means, take away hunger , simplify things and solve the basic issues first THEN educate
Its taken 30 years for the NHS to use this (They have used it for other conditions though but not diabetics) it will probably take another 30 to them to embrace a low carb lifestyle , but its a step in the right direction
The problem with all of this is that the ordinary guy in the street is totally confused and, as with other issues where 'experts' disagree, there's a tendency to just ignore both/all points of view.
All that most people will probably understand is that a low carbohydrate lifestyle should prove better than one with a high level of carbohydrates.
All that most people will probably understand is that a low carbohydrate lifestyle should prove better than one with a high level of carbohydrates.
Robertj21a said:
The problem with all of this is that the ordinary guy in the street is totally confused and, as with other issues where 'experts' disagree, there's a tendency to just ignore both/all points of view.
All that most people will probably understand is that a low carbohydrate lifestyle should prove better than one with a high level of carbohydrates.
I attended a Desmond course last week that I will write my thoughts about here later, but the most surprising thing for me was all the people in attendance were completely ignorant about Diabetes. They were all diagnosed in the last nine months and just dutifully took medication without understanding or researching themselves what causes it and how they could possibly remedy it with diet. So more wide spread publicity and Doctors giving better advice can only be a good thing.All that most people will probably understand is that a low carbohydrate lifestyle should prove better than one with a high level of carbohydrates.
Completely unrelated, I use an Accu-chek mobile and if you do, Boots have a sale on the cartridges: https://www.boots.com/accu-chek-mobile-test-casset...
ORD said:
The diet ends and the participant blows back up. Diets that cannot last are pointless. The last 100 years have taught us that much.
Only if they go back to eating too much. As I said this diet has been around for 30 years and lots of people have kept the weight off, but it's true that people can slip back into old ways. Do what you always did and you'll get what you always got This is the same with any diet and that's why its such a lucrative industry, you can lose it all on keto and and put it back on just as quick.
We aren't talking about weight management we are talking about addressing chronic illness , one thing at a time
boxst said:
I attended a Desmond course last week that I will write my thoughts about here later, but the most surprising thing for me was all the people in attendance were completely ignorant about Diabetes. They were all diagnosed in the last nine months and just dutifully took medication without understanding or researching themselves what causes it and how they could possibly remedy it with diet. So more wide spread publicity and Doctors giving better advice can only be a good thing.
Completely unrelated, I use an Accu-chek mobile and if you do, Boots have a sale on the cartridges: https://www.boots.com/accu-chek-mobile-test-casset...
Most people I know are quite ignorant about Diabetes 2 - both how it can arise, and what effect it can have on your life.Completely unrelated, I use an Accu-chek mobile and if you do, Boots have a sale on the cartridges: https://www.boots.com/accu-chek-mobile-test-casset...
Much more needs to be done to highlight the issues.
Robertj21a said:
Most people I know are quite ignorant about Diabetes 2 - both how it can arise, and what effect it can have on your life.
Much more needs to be done to highlight the issues.
In theory, yes, but education only works when people want to listen. We have a very serious cultural problem in this country: many people do not see their health as their problem; mainstream culture teaches them that if they are fat or lazy or unfit, that is the fault of thin celebrities, etc etc etc.Much more needs to be done to highlight the issues.
ORD said:
In theory, yes, but education only works when people want to listen. We have a very serious cultural problem in this country: many people do not see their health as their problem; mainstream culture teaches them that if they are fat or lazy or unfit, that is the fault of thin celebrities, etc etc etc.
I don't disagree but it suggests to me that we need to rethink how we might better communicate. We've managed to make good progress with smoking, alcohol, HIV, cancer etc etc - it must be time for more targeted action on Diabetes 2.Robertj21a said:
I don't disagree but it suggests to me that we need to rethink how we might better communicate. We've managed to make good progress with smoking, alcohol, HIV, cancer etc etc - it must be time for more targeted action on Diabetes 2.
Agreed. It’s an existential threat to the NHS, and the realisation is dawning. But it has been so slow. Kenny Powers said:
That may all well be true (much of it isn’t), but it might be easier just to eat a low carb, natural fat diet and reverse diabetes without hunger rather than starving on 800 calories. As always this idea has the horse and the cart the wrong way around. Fixing obesity doesn’t fix diabetes. Fixing the cause of both fixes both. Starving on liquid for three months may well reverse it, as I stated, but it’s a stupid idea.
But as ORD states, the NHS cannot change course. If they change course now and recommend specific carbohydrate restriction as a diabetes intervention, they are effectively admitting that all their current best advice on managing it is complete fiction.
We’re in agreement about the causes of obesity and type-2 diabetes. However, my experience suggests that some people with diabetes, particularly the obese, need to kick start their internal organs before their insulin levels begin to reduce. By removing some of that internal fat quickly at the beginning it triggers reduced insulin production and this allows the fat reduction process to progress. Meaning a low calorie low carb diet can help to begin the diabetes recovery process but they should then revert to a higher calorie low carb diet as they progress. 3 months at 800 calories is extreme and very difficult to maintain. But as ORD states, the NHS cannot change course. If they change course now and recommend specific carbohydrate restriction as a diabetes intervention, they are effectively admitting that all their current best advice on managing it is complete fiction.
liner33 said:
Yes but that wont help someone who is 10 stone overweight will it?
Yes. Once insulin levels are back into a nominal range and the patient is no longer pouring glucose into their bloodstream, the body will begin to oxidise stored body fat to use as energy. This is what it’s supposed to do when not eating. Theres no need to starve on a ridiculous 800 calories per day. You just have to scale back the insulin.Incidentally, the BMR reduces on such diets because the body begins to prioritise supplying energy, and scales back on on the other functions that it would normally be doing to repair and build the body, particularly while sleeping. 800 calories per day may well allow the patient to lose weight and reverse their diabetes, but it’s a nutritional disaster. 800 calories!? The body needs more than that just to keep you alive.
It’s a ridiculous trial that will prove nothing other than starving people half to death makes them wither away. In my opinion
Phil. said:
We’re in agreement about the causes of obesity and type-2 diabetes. However, my experience suggests that some people with diabetes, particularly the obese, need to kick start their internal organs before their insulin levels begin to reduce. By removing some of that internal fat quickly at the beginning it triggers reduced insulin production and this allows the fat reduction process to progress. Meaning a low calorie low carb diet can help to begin the diabetes recovery process but they should then revert to a higher calorie low carb diet as they progress. 3 months at 800 calories is extreme and very difficult to maintain.
Correct in principle but in these cases a medically supervised extended fast would be better than drip feeding a paltry 800 calories 
Kenny Powers said:
Yes. Once insulin levels are back into a nominal range and the patient is no longer pouring glucose into their bloodstream, the body will begin to oxidise stored body fat to use as energy. This is what it’s supposed to do when not eating. Theres no need to starve on a ridiculous 800 calories per day. You just have to scale back the insulin.
Incidentally, the BMR reduces on such diets because the body begins to prioritise supplying energy, and scales back on on the other functions that it would normally be doing to repair and build the body, particularly while sleeping. 800 calories per day may well allow the patient to lose weight and reverse their diabetes, but it’s a nutritional disaster. 800 calories!? The body needs more than that just to keep you alive.
It’s a ridiculous trial that will prove nothing other than starving people half to death makes them wither away. In my opinion
You aren't starving ! You are consuming fat for fuel , the body stores energy as fat for use when times are hard , this diet is not different from the Keto diet apart from being nutritionally balanced with essential vitamins and minerals unlike many meals posted on the Keto thread Incidentally, the BMR reduces on such diets because the body begins to prioritise supplying energy, and scales back on on the other functions that it would normally be doing to repair and build the body, particularly while sleeping. 800 calories per day may well allow the patient to lose weight and reverse their diabetes, but it’s a nutritional disaster. 800 calories!? The body needs more than that just to keep you alive.
It’s a ridiculous trial that will prove nothing other than starving people half to death makes them wither away. In my opinion
Its still calories in/calories out, eat 3000 calories on Keto and you wont lose weight, your body will only burn fat if its in energy deficit
For someone so preachy you need to read a book sometimes
liner33 said:
You aren't starving ! You are consuming fat for fuel , the body stores energy as fat for use when times are hard , this diet is not different from the Keto diet apart from being nutritionally balanced with essential vitamins and minerals unlike many meals posted on the Keto thread
Its still calories in/calories out, eat 3000 calories on Keto and you wont lose weight, your body will only burn fat if its in energy deficit
For someone so preachy you need to read a book sometimes
Read a book? I’ve literally dedicated the last year of my life to researching this subject. I’ve read nearly twenty books and countless scientific papers. I don’t get my information from The Guardian. I know I can come across as a know-it-all, and I appreciate that no one likes a smart arse, but whether or not you agree, I am in fact extremely well informed on this topic. The fact that you just asserted the calories in/out model assures me that you are not very well informed at all. CICO completely ignores the complex endocrinology of human biology. Ignoring it because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s not there.Its still calories in/calories out, eat 3000 calories on Keto and you wont lose weight, your body will only burn fat if its in energy deficit
For someone so preachy you need to read a book sometimes
With respect, when you’re debating with someone, there is a skill in acknowledging that they might be more informed than yourself. I do not profess to be a world leader in the field, but I assure you that I’m quite likely the most knowledgeable person in this discussion when it comes to the subject of managing and reversing diabetes. You don’t have to agree, and I accept your view that I’m a preachy smart arse, but you do not know more than me about reversing diabetes. You may think you do, but that doesn’t make it so.
But, and again with respect, it’s not my intention to win any pissing contests. I’m simply sharing the extensive and proven knowledge that I have gained whilst successfully reversing my own diabetes without a single moment of hunger or deprivation. You are welcome to disagree or ignore anything I say, but it won’t mean you’re any more correct with your ill-informed views.
Thanks for reading. Peace
Kenny Powers said:
Read a book? I’ve literally dedicated the last year of my life to researching this subject. I’ve read nearly twenty books and countless scientific papers. I don’t get my information from The Guardian. I know I can come across as a know-it-all, and I appreciate that no one likes a smart arse, but whether or not you agree, I am in fact extremely well informed on this topic. The fact that you just asserted the calories in/out model assures me that you are not very well informed at all. CICO completely ignores the complex endocrinology of human biology. Ignoring it because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s not there.
With respect, when you’re debating with someone, there is a skill in acknowledging that they might be more informed than yourself. I do not profess to be a world leader in the field, but I assure you that I’m quite likely the most knowledgeable person in this discussion when it comes to the subject of managing and reversing diabetes. You don’t have to agree, and I accept your view that I’m a preachy smart arse, but you do not know more than me about reversing diabetes. You may think you do, but that doesn’t make it so.
But, and again with respect, it’s not my intention to win any pissing contests. I’m simply sharing the extensive and proven knowledge that I have gained whilst successfully reversing my own diabetes without a single moment of hunger or deprivation. You are welcome to disagree or ignore anything I say, but it won’t mean you’re any more correct with your ill-informed views.
Thanks for reading. Peace
Wow , just wow . With respect, when you’re debating with someone, there is a skill in acknowledging that they might be more informed than yourself. I do not profess to be a world leader in the field, but I assure you that I’m quite likely the most knowledgeable person in this discussion when it comes to the subject of managing and reversing diabetes. You don’t have to agree, and I accept your view that I’m a preachy smart arse, but you do not know more than me about reversing diabetes. You may think you do, but that doesn’t make it so.
But, and again with respect, it’s not my intention to win any pissing contests. I’m simply sharing the extensive and proven knowledge that I have gained whilst successfully reversing my own diabetes without a single moment of hunger or deprivation. You are welcome to disagree or ignore anything I say, but it won’t mean you’re any more correct with your ill-informed views.
Thanks for reading. Peace
liner33 said:
Wow , just wow .
That’s what I thought when you said I should read a book 
Anyway let’s not fall out over it. I did say that I appreciate your view that I’m a preachy know-at-all. I accept that. Luckily I’m not here to make any friends so as long as we’re all polite and civil then I’m sure we can amicably disagree
Just to add to the comments regarding the nutritional aspect of dietary ketosis, whilst I can’t comment on any specific recipes that you may have been referring to - red meat, liver, fish, eggs, nuts, seeds, mushrooms and all the green vegetables you can eat - is a dietary plan absolutely chock-full of micronutrients. Flour not so much.
It’s a misconception that dietary ketosis is nutritionally deficient. It may not be suitable for everyone but it is most certainly not lacking in vitamins and minerals. Quite the opposite. That’s really discussion better suited to the keto thread, but I thought I’d expand on it since it was mentioned here
It’s a misconception that dietary ketosis is nutritionally deficient. It may not be suitable for everyone but it is most certainly not lacking in vitamins and minerals. Quite the opposite. That’s really discussion better suited to the keto thread, but I thought I’d expand on it since it was mentioned here
Edited by Kenny Powers on Saturday 1st December 09:53
Kenny Powers said:
Read a book? I’ve literally dedicated the last year of my life to researching this subject. I’ve read nearly twenty books and countless scientific papers. I don’t get my information from The Guardian. I know I can come across as a know-it-all, and I appreciate that no one likes a smart arse, but whether or not you agree, I am in fact extremely well informed on this topic. The fact that you just asserted the calories in/out model assures me that you are not very well informed at all. CICO completely ignores the complex endocrinology of human biology. Ignoring it because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s not there.
With respect, when you’re debating with someone, there is a skill in acknowledging that they might be more informed than yourself. I do not profess to be a world leader in the field, but I assure you that I’m quite likely the most knowledgeable person in this discussion when it comes to the subject of managing and reversing diabetes. You don’t have to agree, and I accept your view that I’m a preachy smart arse, but you do not know more than me about reversing diabetes. You may think you do, but that doesn’t make it so.
But, and again with respect, it’s not my intention to win any pissing contests. I’m simply sharing the extensive and proven knowledge that I have gained whilst successfully reversing my own diabetes without a single moment of hunger or deprivation. You are welcome to disagree or ignore anything I say, but it won’t mean you’re any more correct with your ill-informed views.
Thanks for reading. Peace
And this, everyone, is the Dunning-Kruger effect!With respect, when you’re debating with someone, there is a skill in acknowledging that they might be more informed than yourself. I do not profess to be a world leader in the field, but I assure you that I’m quite likely the most knowledgeable person in this discussion when it comes to the subject of managing and reversing diabetes. You don’t have to agree, and I accept your view that I’m a preachy smart arse, but you do not know more than me about reversing diabetes. You may think you do, but that doesn’t make it so.
But, and again with respect, it’s not my intention to win any pissing contests. I’m simply sharing the extensive and proven knowledge that I have gained whilst successfully reversing my own diabetes without a single moment of hunger or deprivation. You are welcome to disagree or ignore anything I say, but it won’t mean you’re any more correct with your ill-informed views.
Thanks for reading. Peace
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