What training are you doing/have you done today? (Vol.3)

[ORD]

popeyewhite said:

Chins are a lot easier than pullups. There's farmore biceps involvement. If you struggle on widegrip pullups and you feel your shoulders don't 'feel right' then unless you have an injury it's simply that you have weak shoulders. They're really only synergists during a wgpu so shouldn't cause that much trouble if they are anatomically sound. Post a vid?

That’s the gym bro view but the studies suggest that the contribution of muscles is pretty damn similar for different grips (except that wider means much less bicep).

[TheJimi]

If anecdotal evidence means anything, then chins ARE quite a bit easier than wide grip pull-ups.

As I say, I’ve seen countless people – male and female, not being able to do nary a single pull-up, yet with (admittedly a lot of) effort, able to move more on the chins.  I see it all the time in lifters who aren’t new to the game, who can bang out decent chins yet really flounder at the pull-ups.

Tbh, I’m kinda surprised we’re even discussing this!

[ORD]

I’m not saying WIDE grip isn’t harder. It is. My point is that supination or probation doesn’t make much difference to muscle activation. Chins are easier because the biceps can contribute more but not vastly more. Grip width makes a much bigger difference.

[popeyewhite]

ORD said:

I’m not saying WIDE grip isn’t harder. It is. My point is that supination or probation doesn’t make much difference to muscle activation. Chins are easier because the biceps can contribute more but not vastly more. Grip width makes a much bigger difference.

You know best. It's "pronation" BTW. The shoulder movements are different between the two. During pullups your shoulders adduct. Have you asked yourself why you find this movement awkward?

[ORD]

popeyewhite said:

You know best. It's "pronation" BTW. The shoulder movements are different between the two. During pullups your shoulders adduct. Have you asked yourself why you find this movement awkward?

I know that - autocorrect, however, disagrees

I know why I find pull ups (with a wide grip particularly) uncomfortable - because it’s not an exercise that fits my particular shoulder structure, movement patterns, etc. I’ve always found them slightly uncomfortable and must have done tens of thousands without that changing.

But injury also plays a role: I couldn’t do any vertical pulling without pain (and pull ups were the worst) for about 2 years after my second neck injury. Over the years, I’ve noticed that I can get away with more neutral grip pull ups than chin ups and more neutral grip than chin ups.

[popeyewhite]

ORD said:

I know why I find pull ups (with a wide grip particularly) uncomfortable - because it’s not an exercise that fits my particular shoulder structure, movement patterns, etc. I’ve always found them slightly uncomfortable and must have done tens of thousands without that changing.

Stating the obvious here - but it has nothing to do with your shoulder structure. It's fine or there would be huge problems with other lifts.

ORD said:

But injury also plays a role: I couldn’t do any vertical pulling without pain (and pull ups were the worst) for about 2 years after my second neck injury.

You have pain in your shoulders from a neck injury? Do you mean nerve pain? A favour if possible - could you stop saying "vertical pulling" - as no-one actually does this.

ORD said:

I’ve noticed that I can get away with more neutral grip pull ups than chin ups and more neutral grip than chin ups.

Your sentence is a bit unclear. What is a "neutral grip"?

Have I got this right - since a neck injury you've had a problem with shoulder adduction under weight. Is shoulder abduction also affected?

[ORD]

popeyewhite said:

Your sentence is a bit unclear. What is a "neutral grip"?

Have I got this right - since a neck injury you've had a problem with shoulder adduction under weight. Is shoulder abduction also affected?

Neutral grip has the handles at 90 degrees or so to the torso - so the palms face towards each other. My favourite grip is actually slanted a bit.

Yes - I cacked up (technical term) two discs in my neck and tore the feck (technical term) out of a bunch of neck, shoulder and upper back muscles in the process. The injury then partially re-occurred 5 or 6 times over the years, through various mechanisms. But shoulder adduction is by far the dodgiest movement for me. I did a muscle up a while back (climbing out of the sea) and my neck immediately went crunch.

[didelydoo]

FWIW I find wide grip as easy as narrow now, but that's a more recent thing. I still find underhand, closeish grip the hardest, and most effective though. I also think pull downs are better than chins/Pull ups.

Legs>

Leg extension- 8 sets
split squat on smith- bunch with left leg.
Ham curls...

That was it. Body needs a break- from training and food. My digestion is slow and crap just now, I've been getting nasty heart burn, my sleep is atrocious, aches/pains are becoming more apparent and my drive and mental focus is beginning to wane.

I'm going to have a back off week, probably cut calories and shed a little fat too. Then refocus, and begin to build. (TBH, what's probably going to happen, is I'll not train this weekend, and start again on Monday )

[Halb]

didelydoo said:

I also think pull downs are better than chins/Pull ups.

how come?

[didelydoo]

Halb said:

how come?

I think they allow you to focus more on what's doing the pulling, and the line of the pull too. I'm pretty good at chins/Pull ups, weighted or otherwise- but my preference is pull downs.

[smiffy180]

144.8 this morning which means I've put on 1.5kg in 2 weeks, pretty happy with that considering I came off diet to carb up for a heavy session and comp.
Back on it now for 4 weeks, hopefully @140 I'll be lean enough but we'll see then I have a coach I'm taking on after.
We discussed and thought it would be best to start post diet even though he can help me with that, I'm doing fine and would rather see the quickest gains back on a proper calories

[popeyewhite]

ORD said:

Yes - I cacked up (technical term) two discs in my neck and tore the feck (technical term) out of a bunch of neck, shoulder and upper back muscles in the process. The injury then partially re-occurred 5 or 6 times over the years, through various mechanisms. But shoulder adduction is by far the dodgiest movement for me. I did a muscle up a while back (climbing out of the sea) and my neck immediately went crunch.

Chronic injuries are the worst IMO. Just when you think everything's going well - bang, it goes again. Dispiriting. Sounds like a long course of light, high rep remedial exercises might be best. Forget bw for a while. Check scapulas are pulling the shoulders back - so good rhomboid exercises etc.

[popeyewhite]

TheJimi said:

If anecdotal evidence means anything, then chins ARE quite a bit easier than wide grip pull-ups.

It's not anecdotal. There's far more bicep activation on a shoulder -or- less chin than a wide grip pullup. With a chin you get full bicep stretch at the bottom and contraction at the top - impossible with a wide grip pullup. A chin is also further distance for the biceps to work, and it also has the grip and width for optimal biceps recruitment - shoulder width/palms facing out, ie a barbell curl position.

[TheJimi]

I was trying to be diplomatic!

[Halb]

this ain't the UN, sugartits

[popeyewhite]

Halb said:

this ain't the UN, sugartits

Apologies TheJimi!

[ORD]

I think everyone agrees that (for almost everyone) wide arm pull ups are harder than fairly close grip chins.

Thanks for the advice, Popeye. I’ve been clear of serious injury basically ever since I started lifting at least twice a week. I do lots of rows and lots of band pull aparts and face pulls (the last two every day).

[ORD]

Squats and bench today:
Squat: 130kg x 5; 100kg x 8; 90kg x 12
RDL: 3 x 10 @ 70kg (gonna do these very light for a few weeks).

Bench: 3 x 105kg; 5 x 100kg; 8 x 90kg
DB rows: 8,10,12 reps @ 40kg

Interesting to see whether doing landmine presses on Wednesdays will help my bench. It might also help OHP.

[Fatlad1973]

Deadlift day, warm up sets then 4 sets at 165kg (reps: 2,3,2,3). Felt good.
Then squats, 4 sets at 80kg x10 reps, more a weighted stretch: lower back tight after the deadlifts.
Then leg press, pull ups and hollow body hold for my core.

Nice session.

[TheJimi]

Halb said:

this ain't the UN, sugartits

Outstanding