Discussion
cringle said:
I’m not looking for sympathy for dentists. I just hope anybody reading this takes responsibility for their teeth and problems and appreciates how hard a job being a dentist is.
Point taken chum and nope my teeth are not as white as a new urinal. What gets me is the wide spread of costs and clearly some people are making a lot of money out of which if they are doing all the techniques you describe, the training investment, ongoing CPD and using the very best lab products I can't see how it stacks up unless its a conveyor belt approach given the unit costs are the same?
I wouldn't say the UK is leading the world in cosmetic dentistry and there must be others just as good in the EU who are not able to charge UK prices but offer a good service - thinking here former Eastern Bloc countries where its as cheap to travel/stay there as the UK and take advantage of local priced treatment.
For example the mother-in-laws window cleaner's dentist is in Bulgaria where he gets all his work done.
I use an NHS dentist (been with them 20yrs) but obviously there's a limit to what they can undertake where 'cosmetic' crosses into the private funded territory and where the cost rise is meteoric if you can afford it. And I suppose if you cant then you have to blame yourself for poor dental hygiene puttin gyou in that position?
I'm still scarred by the greed of some dentists from the 80s where one I visited as a kid (as NHS) convinced my mother I'd be better having 4 crowns at the top front to correct a slight irregularity. Surprise surprise he could do it 'as a private patient' for I think just short of £1000 (in 1980!). Looking back was that necessary? No I dont think so but someone needed to top up his NHS salary to fund the sports car outside.
To me some do it as ' a calling' and a profession, clearly others do it as an opportunity to make a load of money by marketing to get em in and out.
I've nothing against dentists as we need them but I look for a professional service at a competitive price.
Yipper said:
You should have gotten a 2nd dentist opinion. You should always try and save a tooth and never pull them out. They aren't making any more of them. Nothing beats Mother Nature. Dentists like to pull teeth because it is easier and requires less skill.
Be aware -- implants are not a permanent solution. A surprisingly large number of them go wrong. You could be left with a hole in your face for up to 2 years and all the bone-withering and face-structure-shrinking that goes with it. Some people get facial nerve damage from the process.
A foolish, miss-guided, scaremongering and ignorant post.Be aware -- implants are not a permanent solution. A surprisingly large number of them go wrong. You could be left with a hole in your face for up to 2 years and all the bone-withering and face-structure-shrinking that goes with it. Some people get facial nerve damage from the process.
Take advise
https://www.adi.org.uk/
Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Monday 1st January 23:53
Mr Pointy said:
Driller said:
If you’d like to tell me what you do for a living and how much you’re paid perhaps I could then make a judgement as to whether your salary should be regulated?
As for what I do? Well the last job was managing a £4million project with around 20 contactors under me for the princely sum of £400 a day, out of which I have to pay all my own expenses from PCs to CAD software & PI insurance. What difference does it make what the value of the project was ? 4 million / 40 million / whatever. As indicated, Mr Pointy is a 'Project Manager' with teams of contractors under his control.
I'm not sure of the relevance of the numbers quoted - does that lend a little more gravitas to the role ?
If someone has to pay their own 'expenses', isnt that down to the contract that the individual has agreed to abide by.
Just curious.....
Armitage.Shanks said:
cringle said:
How come you see some new cars for £7k and some for £700k? The processes, R&D, materials and manufacturing processes are completely different. Dental practices and dental practitioners also vary widely, as do the training they’ve undertaken and the materials they use. The £650 implants are cheap pieces of metal stuck in usually without a CT scan or presurgical models, so lack of planning, and the crown to go on top will be made by the cheapest(worst) dental lab around. The dentist probably doesnt care too much either.
To give you an idea of my costs, the CT scan is £140, study models £70, surgical drill guide £165(if required), actual titanium implant £265, single use surgical equipment £100, porcelain crown and components to go on the implant £430. If grafting is required the materials are around £140. So hard costs can be as much as £1310. Then my time and that of my staff needs to be paid for, my investment into my implant training alone was around 35k, with ongoing courses and a hell of a lot of reading and learning in my own time. Extra insurance is also required and lastly software licenses for the dedicated implant planning software needs to be paid for too
Ah so that's why the chap who owns Kiss Dental in Manchester can afford a new Ferrari and various other exotica every few months?To give you an idea of my costs, the CT scan is £140, study models £70, surgical drill guide £165(if required), actual titanium implant £265, single use surgical equipment £100, porcelain crown and components to go on the implant £430. If grafting is required the materials are around £140. So hard costs can be as much as £1310. Then my time and that of my staff needs to be paid for, my investment into my implant training alone was around 35k, with ongoing courses and a hell of a lot of reading and learning in my own time. Extra insurance is also required and lastly software licenses for the dedicated implant planning software needs to be paid for too
How do you find an expert implant dentist? I have an excellent dentist but he doesn’t do implants.
I had one five years ago and it failed after three months, just fell out (I could never apply pressure on it without slight pain). No drill, he made a hole and stuck it in; cost over 3k because I needed a bone graft. He was supposed to be some kind of teacher and appeared on toothpaste ads. At the same time I had another extraction but declined an implant there because I borrowed money for the first one.
Could I even have an implant after so many years in a failed implant site?
I had one five years ago and it failed after three months, just fell out (I could never apply pressure on it without slight pain). No drill, he made a hole and stuck it in; cost over 3k because I needed a bone graft. He was supposed to be some kind of teacher and appeared on toothpaste ads. At the same time I had another extraction but declined an implant there because I borrowed money for the first one.
Could I even have an implant after so many years in a failed implant site?
Interesting thread as I will need an implant in the next year to replace a tooth I had extracted a while back.
If I can highjack the thread for some advice. I chipped a bit of a back tooth which has previously been heavily filled; I went to the dentist (NHS but does private) hoping for perhaps a small filling and I have been told that as the tooth has been heavily filled I might be better with a crown (£500) and they also may need to fill the tooth next to it as there is some decay between them (£100). I take it they can't just grind a bit of the existing filling and bond some white filling on? The only reason I am slightly suspicious (not casting any doubt on the profession) but I do get the feeling from past dealings they like to "up-sell"....
I have circled the problem area (yes, my teeth are poor, although they do look pretty good from the front!)
If I can highjack the thread for some advice. I chipped a bit of a back tooth which has previously been heavily filled; I went to the dentist (NHS but does private) hoping for perhaps a small filling and I have been told that as the tooth has been heavily filled I might be better with a crown (£500) and they also may need to fill the tooth next to it as there is some decay between them (£100). I take it they can't just grind a bit of the existing filling and bond some white filling on? The only reason I am slightly suspicious (not casting any doubt on the profession) but I do get the feeling from past dealings they like to "up-sell"....
I have circled the problem area (yes, my teeth are poor, although they do look pretty good from the front!)
tim0409 said:
Interesting thread as I will need an implant in the next year to replace a tooth I had extracted a while back.
If I can highjack the thread for some advice. I chipped a bit of a back tooth which has previously been heavily filled.........
Looks good advice to me. The tooth behind definitely needs a filling due to decay. The chipped tooth in front also looks to be developing a crack at the front on the cheek side. A filling will not help and is obviously already failing. Have it crowned before it splits completely and has to be extracted. Prices not unreasonable too. I would quote £90 for the filling and £380 for the crown.If I can highjack the thread for some advice. I chipped a bit of a back tooth which has previously been heavily filled.........
Interesting thread. I am 1 year into the 2year FGDP Diploma in implantology at the Royal College of Surgeons. An interesting perspective from patients especially regarding price. The investment the dentist has to make is substantial to be able to do implants to the highest quality. This is both in terms of time and money.
Course hours are stated as 600 hours per year on top of working your normal hours.
Financially the course costs £21,000. This is just the start though. There is the new equipment you have to buy, the time out of the surgery, the course costs for extra training for the staff, the hotel and travel bills.
The estimated costs are £50,000 to £100,000 depending on how much equipment you buy. CBCT scanners for example are about £40k.
It’s not a whinge about the costs as I am enjoying the course and enjoy dentistry. It’s just to show what goes into becoming a competent implant dentist.
Anyone with a dental degree can place implants and there are some out there that think a weekend course will give them the required skills to place implants. It is important to see what training people have done.
I agree with all the dentists posts above except that they will last a lifetime. After writing a 2000 word essay on consent and another one on implant failure a line like that would not have gone down well. There is a failure rate with implants and complications do occur but this is also the case with restorations on natural teeth.
Implants are a great solution but it is important to see if the tooth can be saved first.
Course hours are stated as 600 hours per year on top of working your normal hours.
Financially the course costs £21,000. This is just the start though. There is the new equipment you have to buy, the time out of the surgery, the course costs for extra training for the staff, the hotel and travel bills.
The estimated costs are £50,000 to £100,000 depending on how much equipment you buy. CBCT scanners for example are about £40k.
It’s not a whinge about the costs as I am enjoying the course and enjoy dentistry. It’s just to show what goes into becoming a competent implant dentist.
Anyone with a dental degree can place implants and there are some out there that think a weekend course will give them the required skills to place implants. It is important to see what training people have done.
I agree with all the dentists posts above except that they will last a lifetime. After writing a 2000 word essay on consent and another one on implant failure a line like that would not have gone down well. There is a failure rate with implants and complications do occur but this is also the case with restorations on natural teeth.
Implants are a great solution but it is important to see if the tooth can be saved first.
fourfoldroot said:
Looks good advice to me. The tooth behind definitely needs a filling due to decay. The chipped tooth in front also looks to be developing a crack at the front on the cheek side. A filling will not help and is obviously already failing. Have it crowned before it splits completely and has to be extracted. Prices not unreasonable too. I would quote £90 for the filling and £380 for the crown.
Thanks for that, I just wanted confirmation that it made sense. rex said:
I agree with all the dentists posts above except that they will last a lifetime. After writing a 2000 word essay on consent and another one on implant failure a line like that would not have gone down well. There is a failure rate with implants and complications do occur but this is also the case with restorations on natural teeth.
That was me. Not quite sure what your point is. My comment above was not part of a consent form, it was general advice and qualified by conditions. Are you disputing the 95%+ success rate from specialists? Obviously the age of the patient is a factor. A "lifetime" for a 60 year old is not the same for a 20 year old. What is the comparable success rate of the endodontic treatment as an alternative treatment?
For information I've been placing implants since 2005.
Edited by Driller on Thursday 15th February 22:41
To add a patient perspective, I had an implant about 7 years ago, lower left first molar. The implant is excellent, feels like eating on a normal tooth and doesn't require any more care than a normal tooth either (except being a bit more thorough with floss). I did have the crown fail after around 4 years, but it was replaced under warranty (part of a bad run apparently). The implant itself has been solid as you like.
I recall it taking around 2 hours in the chair for the fitting (no bone graft), the local was just wearing off as the dentist finished which wasn't the most comfortable.
Cost about £2k.
I recall it taking around 2 hours in the chair for the fitting (no bone graft), the local was just wearing off as the dentist finished which wasn't the most comfortable.
Cost about £2k.
rex said:
The estimated costs are £50,000 to £100,000 depending on how much equipment you buy. CBCT scanners for example are about £40k.
Total cost to set up & train is £100,000Average implant sell price: £3000?
Lets assign £2000/implant for surgery overheads & materials costs (pure guess)
£100,000/1000 means you'll recover those setup costs in 100 implant procedures. How long to do 100? Maybe 6 months? After that, kerching. And the course, equipment & all associated costs like hotels etc are tax deductible.
Driller said:
That was me. Not quite sure what your point is. My comment above was not part of a consent form, it was general advice and qualified by conditions. Are you disputing the 95%+ success rate from specialists?
Obviously the age of the patient is a factor. A "lifetime" for a 60 year old is not the same for a 20 year old. What is the comparable success rate of the endodontic treatment as an alternative treatment?
For information I've been placing implants since 2005.
My post was not any criticism of your post. It was just that I felt it gave the impression that implants were a fit one and it will be there for life. The course as you can imagine, being FGDP is very thorough and theory based. At present I can only go from my teachings and limited experience. Obviously the age of the patient is a factor. A "lifetime" for a 60 year old is not the same for a 20 year old. What is the comparable success rate of the endodontic treatment as an alternative treatment?
For information I've been placing implants since 2005.
Edited by Driller on Thursday 15th February 22:41
Re the endodontic success rates I won’t bore people with a run down as this was another one of the essays and probably more suited to a dental forum.
Would like to pick your brains with your experiences though. Mail me if your happy to help out a noob to implants.
Currently going through having implant and bridge fitted. Had my front teeth chipped as a 12yr old and at 16 had two crowns. After 34yrs I needed something new following further external trauma as the result of a car crash.
Lots of consultations and 360 degree X-rays and we are going for an implant and bridge. I had no sedation and generally have a high pain threshold. Both front crowns removed and drilled out. 1 implant fitted and bone material into second hole to try and rebuild gumline. This has been stitched up. That was a month ago and I have worn a denture since whilst it heals. I was not ready for the severity of the surgery.
In 3 months I will have a temp fitted. 3 months after this I will get the final teeth fitted.
In summary I wondered what you got for £3200 but now I know. It’s about choices but I think I will be happy with the result as I cannot fault the service and professionalism.
Lots of consultations and 360 degree X-rays and we are going for an implant and bridge. I had no sedation and generally have a high pain threshold. Both front crowns removed and drilled out. 1 implant fitted and bone material into second hole to try and rebuild gumline. This has been stitched up. That was a month ago and I have worn a denture since whilst it heals. I was not ready for the severity of the surgery.
In 3 months I will have a temp fitted. 3 months after this I will get the final teeth fitted.
In summary I wondered what you got for £3200 but now I know. It’s about choices but I think I will be happy with the result as I cannot fault the service and professionalism.
rex said:
My post was not any criticism of your post. It was just that I felt it gave the impression that implants were a fit one and it will be there for life. The course as you can imagine, being FGDP is very thorough and theory based. At present I can only go from my teachings and limited experience.
Re the endodontic success rates I won’t bore people with a run down as this was another one of the essays and probably more suited to a dental forum.
Would like to pick your brains with your experiences though. Mail me if your happy to help out a noob to implants.
Re the endodontic success rates I won’t bore people with a run down as this was another one of the essays and probably more suited to a dental forum.
Would like to pick your brains with your experiences though. Mail me if your happy to help out a noob to implants.
I know the FGDP course is good Rex but there are plenty of excellent implant courses done all over the world and the UK ranks rather low in terms of numbers of implants placed compared to many other countries in Europe and further afield.
Your comment came across a bit “know it all” I’m afraid, in spite of your essay, even if it wasn’t your intention
By all means drop me a line if you want to talk implants though, I’d be very interested to see things from the UK POV.
Mikebentley said:
Currently going through having implant and bridge fitted. Had my front teeth chipped as a 12yr old and at 16 had two crowns. After 34yrs I needed something new following further external trauma as the result of a car crash.
Lots of consultations and 360 degree X-rays and we are going for an implant and bridge. I had no sedation and generally have a high pain threshold. Both front crowns removed and drilled out. 1 implant fitted and bone material into second hole to try and rebuild gumline. This has been stitched up. That was a month ago and I have worn a denture since whilst it heals. I was not ready for the severity of the surgery.
In 3 months I will have a temp fitted. 3 months after this I will get the final teeth fitted.
In summary I wondered what you got for £3200 but now I know. It’s about choices but I think I will be happy with the result as I cannot fault the service and professionalism.
Quite a lot of bad luck. Lots of consultations and 360 degree X-rays and we are going for an implant and bridge. I had no sedation and generally have a high pain threshold. Both front crowns removed and drilled out. 1 implant fitted and bone material into second hole to try and rebuild gumline. This has been stitched up. That was a month ago and I have worn a denture since whilst it heals. I was not ready for the severity of the surgery.
In 3 months I will have a temp fitted. 3 months after this I will get the final teeth fitted.
In summary I wondered what you got for £3200 but now I know. It’s about choices but I think I will be happy with the result as I cannot fault the service and professionalism.
I think in Eastern EU you could get it cheaper.
Or go into extremes and get gap filler cosmetic veneer its more
a temporary solution than a permanent one. But still many people seem to like those.
Edited by PaoloMey on Sunday 30th July 17:20
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