Discussion
Trap bar/hex bar lift is a far superior solution for MOST people, imho. The fascination with squat depth is an american import. Weight on the bar in good form. Safety has to come first, if I was starting over, I'd use a hex bar at home and add micro plates every day two weeks, and use 100% perfect slow form. Hindsight is a great thing, at the end of the day, a hobby that makes you feel and look better must be safe. I did wonder at one time if the perfect exercise would be a trap lift and literally stand till exhaustion, given how muscles work, is rom actually necessary?.
markcoznottz said:
I did wonder at one time if the perfect exercise would be a trap lift and literally stand till exhaustion, given how muscles work, is rom actually necessary?.
Yes, but not the whole time. In the scenario above you'd improve your grip a bit I guess as you're only overloading forearms and traps. Although isometrics have been shown to increase strength it's only in the 5-8% range when done properly as you're not recruiting the same number of muscle fibres in a static position as opposed to a dynamic (isotonic) movement.markcoznottz said:
Trap bar/hex bar lift is a far superior solution for MOST people, imho. The fascination with squat depth is an american import. Weight on the bar in good form. Safety has to come first, if I was starting over, I'd use a hex bar at home and add micro plates every day two weeks, and use 100% perfect slow form. Hindsight is a great thing, at the end of the day, a hobby that makes you feel and look better must be safe. I did wonder at one time if the perfect exercise would be a trap lift and literally stand till exhaustion, given how muscles work, is rom actually necessary?.
The obsession with ATG is certainly an American thing, but squatting to roughly parallel is pretty much universally considered a good idea.stargazer30 said:
The thing is with deadlifts, I can set my back neutral, load my hamstrings, and worst case once I start the pull my back will round slightly under the load. I can feel it with my belt and I know to back off but it won't injure me or cause back pain. With the squat, its a balancing act. In order to keep the bar balanced I can't lean forward or round my back or I'll fall forward and my knees will get it.
When using high bar, the lower I go the harder it gets. As I get near parallel I have to hyperextend (not sure if thats the correct term but opposite of rounding) my lower back to keep the bar balanced, I can't keep it neutral anymore. Its this movement under load and then getting back up from the hole whilst hyperextended that does the damage and causes the pain.
If I use low bar, it gets around this a bit, but with low bar you have more forward lean to keep the bar over mid foot anyway. This turns the squat into a mini sort of good morning and again once loaded it puts too much pressure on the lower back and causes pain and eventually injury.
I recon if I could front squat I'd have no problem but I cannot get the bar balanced properly, very painful for me.
Its really not helped by my legs either. I was squatting 100kg 3x5 for a while and my legs were like, meh, no big deal. Yet my back was, if you don't sod off I'm gonna snap in half.
Would you be able to upload a video? I imagine a few on here may be able to cast an eye over form for anything obvious.When using high bar, the lower I go the harder it gets. As I get near parallel I have to hyperextend (not sure if thats the correct term but opposite of rounding) my lower back to keep the bar balanced, I can't keep it neutral anymore. Its this movement under load and then getting back up from the hole whilst hyperextended that does the damage and causes the pain.
If I use low bar, it gets around this a bit, but with low bar you have more forward lean to keep the bar over mid foot anyway. This turns the squat into a mini sort of good morning and again once loaded it puts too much pressure on the lower back and causes pain and eventually injury.
I recon if I could front squat I'd have no problem but I cannot get the bar balanced properly, very painful for me.
Its really not helped by my legs either. I was squatting 100kg 3x5 for a while and my legs were like, meh, no big deal. Yet my back was, if you don't sod off I'm gonna snap in half.
stargazer30 said:
Ahhhh the barbell back squat. I've had a 3 year love/hate relationship with this excercise and have injured my back way too many times. I've watched countless folks in the gym squat, feel like I'm on first name basis with Alan Thrawl having seen so many of his vids. Tried high bar, low bar, memorised starting strength... you get the picture.
To answer the Ops question, I'd say don't go lower than your flexibility allows. In my case thats a rather pathetic 5 or so inches above parallel. Theres tons of advice online saying how you need to go to parallel or even ATG but based on what I've seen from the average gym goer and my experience, I say no. After all a shallow squat is better than no squat and an injured lower back will really mess you up.
Heres the problem though, most folks don't realise they aren't flexible enough to squat to depth. I'd say for every 10 folks I see squat in the gym only 1 or 2 can hit parallel without the lower back moving (the dreaded butt wink) and usually those 2 are women. In my case I was sure my lower back was stable until I started wearing a belt, then it became obvious it really wasn't as with the belt on you can feel it move slightly.
Have you watched the Alan Thrall video about hip mobility ? That helped me improve depth as well as hamstring stretching. I too used to suffer with back injuries but then realised that this was purely down to not breathing/bracing properly when squatting and now it's a non issue. As mentioned above, easier to hit depth with a front squat and even better if you have access to a safety bar. Hip belt squats is another option.To answer the Ops question, I'd say don't go lower than your flexibility allows. In my case thats a rather pathetic 5 or so inches above parallel. Theres tons of advice online saying how you need to go to parallel or even ATG but based on what I've seen from the average gym goer and my experience, I say no. After all a shallow squat is better than no squat and an injured lower back will really mess you up.
Heres the problem though, most folks don't realise they aren't flexible enough to squat to depth. I'd say for every 10 folks I see squat in the gym only 1 or 2 can hit parallel without the lower back moving (the dreaded butt wink) and usually those 2 are women. In my case I was sure my lower back was stable until I started wearing a belt, then it became obvious it really wasn't as with the belt on you can feel it move slightly.
popeyewhite said:
markcoznottz said:
I did wonder at one time if the perfect exercise would be a trap lift and literally stand till exhaustion, given how muscles work, is rom actually necessary?.
Yes, but not the whole time. In the scenario above you'd improve your grip a bit I guess as you're only overloading forearms and traps. Although isometrics have been shown to increase strength it's only in the 5-8% range when done properly as you're not recruiting the same number of muscle fibres in a static position as opposed to a dynamic (isotonic) movement.Isometrics don’t really build much strength, though. Holds build strength that is specific to the joint angle of the hold. You would get better at standing still with a trap bar but that’s about it. Isometrics are also not great for building muscle.
Also, once you’re standing up straight, most of the force is just going through closed joints. You’re not doing much at all except in your hands and forearms and traps.
It would also do nothing for building or maintaining mobility. And nothing for maintaining athleticism.
ROM is good!
Also, once you’re standing up straight, most of the force is just going through closed joints. You’re not doing much at all except in your hands and forearms and traps.
It would also do nothing for building or maintaining mobility. And nothing for maintaining athleticism.
ROM is good!
markcoznottz said:
didelydoo said:
Pick up heavy trap bar, walk around until you can't any more. Job jobbed.
Farmers walk. Superb exercise. That's another benefit of a trap bar, it can be used as a farmers walk. Noticed a lot of rugby league coaches use this now. ORD said:
Isometrics don’t really build much strength, though. Holds build strength that is specific to the joint angle of the hold. You would get better at standing still with a trap bar but that’s about it. Isometrics are also not great for building muscle.
Also, once you’re standing up straight, most of the force is just going through closed joints. You’re not doing much at all except in your hands and forearms and traps.
It would also do nothing for building or maintaining mobility. And nothing for maintaining athleticism.
ROM is good!
Standing with a trap bar isn't 'isometrics' it's brutally overloading the entire body. Every single muscle and tendon will be under tension. Similar to breathing or 20 rep squats. The standing part is mentally taxing, you are having to fight the effects of a weight trying to push you into the ground. It's a totally unnatural experience. Also, once you’re standing up straight, most of the force is just going through closed joints. You’re not doing much at all except in your hands and forearms and traps.
It would also do nothing for building or maintaining mobility. And nothing for maintaining athleticism.
ROM is good!
lemmingjames said:
What's a hip belt squat?
edit - found it. Could you seriously pack on 'muscle' from it though?
I believe so especially if you have access to a machine. The have good carryover for regular squats too. Would love a machine for my home gym but can't justify the cost - will probably go the cheapo route of a belt and a landmine.edit - found it. Could you seriously pack on 'muscle' from it though?
Edited by lemmingjames on Friday 25th May 08:17
markcoznottz said:
Standing with a trap bar isn't 'isometrics' it's brutally overloading the entire body.
It's mostly isometrics. There may be tension but joint angles don't change. Moving with a trap bar will bring in more of an isotonics element, for legs, obviously. Are you overloading pecs? triceps? lats?popeyewhite said:
markcoznottz said:
Standing with a trap bar isn't 'isometrics' it's brutally overloading the entire body.
It's mostly isometrics. There may be tension but joint angles don't change. Moving with a trap bar will bring in more of an isotonics element, for legs, obviously. Are you overloading pecs? triceps? lats?The old timers did and were demonstrably wrong. Squats do not make your arms grow. Eating a lot during a squat programme might.
You cannot overload an isometric exercise with a weight that can be moved. If I can deadlift a weight, that same weight is well below a maximal hold. And when joints are closed, the muscles crossing the joints bear vastly less load.
A 180kg trap bar deadlift for 5 reps will do vastly more than holding the trap bar for 1 minute. Walking with it will do different but also good things.
You cannot overload an isometric exercise with a weight that can be moved. If I can deadlift a weight, that same weight is well below a maximal hold. And when joints are closed, the muscles crossing the joints bear vastly less load.
A 180kg trap bar deadlift for 5 reps will do vastly more than holding the trap bar for 1 minute. Walking with it will do different but also good things.
markcoznottz said:
Muscle groups don't work in isolation do they. I think it's fairly well accepted now that compound anything is better than isolation type training. If the muscle is stabilising and supporting the weight it MAY be just as effective as using ROM. Specific research on these subjects doesn't exist in real world studies. Didn't the old timers use to say squats/deads build the best biceps? .
The old-timers had some great exercises. Th old way is the best way imo. Stuff that started to come back into vogue in the early 00s, so old it was new.https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/oldtime-st...
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