Alcohol Consumption - Open question

[Trophy Husband]

Integroo said:

Trophy Husband said:

Why so? If alcohol over 14 units per week is bad for you then it is bad for me, my mother, brother, father, Fanny's aunt, everybody. We know for instance that if you put your hand in the fire it will be burned. If I do it so will mine etc. etc. That is a binary. All will get burned.
My mother has consumed 10-14 units per day, that's per day! 70-98 units per week for years and years. I'm assuming that her liver consists of the same biology as all others? And yet here she is. If the guidance is 'true' then she should not be here should she?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

It's obvious that people's bodies are not the same and so it is not binary.

If you had a 75% chance of liver disease with drinking 100 units a week and a 25% chance of liver disease being tee total, then some in the former camp will not develop liver disease and some in the latter camp will. That's not evidence that alcohol isn't harmful.

Your mother is fortunate and/or hardier than average.

Fortunate to a multiple of 7 to 10 times the recommendation for women? Come on.

Even the obtuse amongst us have a right to doubt the guidance.

Listen to you body. Liver problems are not like a heart attack. There are plenty of warnings, all in good time to take action.

[J4CKO]

Its a tough one, at what point do we consider that we have lived long enough and not been killed buy our habits ?

My gran died at 93 last year, aside from the odd Sherry she never drank but she was pretty worn out.

Do we do stuff to last indefinitely as that doesnt work and to be honest, seeing her at 93 made me think fook that, may as well enjoy stuff to a point and not drag it out that long.

Tough balancing act with also trying to avoid being a complete wreck at 50, 60, 70, or be really careful and something comes from left field and kills you anyway.

My Father in law lasted until 79, he did some exercise until his 70s, smoked pretty heavily and wasnt scared of butter, he also drank a lot, bottle of wine or more a night and I got the impression he had done everything he had wanted to do in life in terms of travel and doing stuff.

Would you trade 10 years in old age for being able to push the envelope a bit.

[Badda]

Trophy Husband said:

Listen to you body. Liver problems are not like a heart attack. There are plenty of warnings, all in good time to take action.

Your ignorance is actually dangerous. Alcohol is known to cause hypertension both acutely and chronically. Hypertension contributes to atherosclerosis (as does drinking too much alcohol itself) which causes coronary heart disease, the leading cause of heart attacks.

You have zero understanding of physiology so please don't preach about what things are and aren't safe, someone might be listening and think you're right.

[Badda]

J4CKO said:

Would you trade 10 years in old age for being able to push the envelope a bit.

Probably, yes. Would I trade 10 years less compounded with years of incapacity and/or ill health? Less sure.

[prand]

If you can find it on iPlayer, watch the Adrian Chiles documentary, quite a dispassionate and honest show.

He never thought he had a problem as he didn't consider himself a problem drinker, waking up in dooorways, drinking first thing in the morning, fighting etc.

He then kept a drink diary that found he was easily drinking 100 units+ a week! Blood tests said his liver function was fine, but a more detailed scan showed he had early signs of liver disease.

He downloaded the Drinkaware app to track his drinking and tried to get to 14 a week, I think the best he was doing by the end of the show was 25 and he was struggling to do that. I've got it now and use it - it is quite eye opening. Especially the cost calculator which is quite conservative. I spent an estimated £100 on booze just for myself one week after drinking nearly 40 units.

He's now trying hard to moderate his intake. Doctors on the show said the 14 units a week was a sensible level of intake. I know from my experience it would be hard to get to and stay under that level, but I'm trying.

I think one of the points of the show was often people drink more than "necessary", and be moderate rather than trying to punish yourself and give up totally. Try to have more days with zdero drinks, and avoid having one last (or final couple) of drinks, or extra shots, or measures are often pointless, but you have them out of habit, or one for the road. If you cut those out you reduce your intake considerably.

[anonymous-user]

Drink as much as you want on the basis of being an adult making an informed choice

But there is a potential spanner in the works of the 'listen to your body / there is plenty of time to change if alcohol starts to lead towards health issues' point: the addictive nature of alcohol

For some people, by the time they start to realise that the amount they are consuming is more than other aspects of the life they want to live can support, they are too close to addicted / dependent to be able to cut down as easily as they might like

[StevieBee]

A lot here that resonates with me.

I decided to cut back to the point of near abstinence last year as part of a health programme thing. Not go totally alcohol free but limit to moderate weekend consumption.

One of the un-recognised pleasures of doing this is that you begin to appreciate the drinks for their taste not just effect.

I used to drink a lot of ale but hardly drink any these days.. but when I do, it's delicious. Same for a decent single malt.

[PurpleTurtle]

prand said:

If you can find it on iPlayer, watch the Adrian Chiles documentary, quite a dispassionate and honest show.

He never thought he had a problem as he didn't consider himself a problem drinker, waking up in dooorways, drinking first thing in the morning, fighting etc.

He then kept a drink diary that found he was easily drinking 100 units+ a week! Blood tests said his liver function was fine, but a more detailed scan showed he had early signs of liver disease.

He downloaded the Drinkaware app to track his drinking and tried to get to 14 a week, I think the best he was doing by the end of the show was 25 and he was struggling to do that. I've got it now and use it - it is quite eye opening. Especially the cost calculator which is quite conservative. I spent an estimated £100 on booze just for myself one week after drinking nearly 40 units.

He's now trying hard to moderate his intake. Doctors on the show said the 14 units a week was a sensible level of intake. I know from my experience it would be hard to get to and stay under that level, but I'm trying.

I think one of the points of the show was often people drink more than "necessary", and be moderate rather than trying to punish yourself and give up totally. Try to have more days with zdero drinks, and avoid having one last (or final couple) of drinks, or extra shots, or measures are often pointless, but you have them out of habit, or one for the road. If you cut those out you reduce your intake considerably.

Here you go, well worth a watch if you like to moderately cane it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bhkc8b

The key thing the Liver specialist said was to have 3-4 days off a week. I guess this is to give the liver time to recover, rather than constantly working it hard with the grog.

[j_4m]

Everyone is ignoring the most disturbing part of the OP.

Ice?! With whisky?

[stargazer30]

Interesting thread. I'm a binge drinker. Have been since 18 and I've tried to kick the habit several times but its not easy when my generation are all social drinkers.

From my own experience I used to drink 3 times a week in my 30s and even early 40s. Late 30s I decided I needed to get fit. I was skinny fat, getting panic attacks, unfit. I'm in the best shape of my life now but getting to that stage I found I had to dial back the alcohol. Karate and gym sessions were too much after a good session the night before, my body couldn't recover.

These days I drink once a week but still too much (full bottle of wine or slightly more) but I don't train weekends. No health problems at all but it does screw my calories over when I'm cutting/dieting. Problem with alcohol is its empty calories.

I do think its a silent killer, but every generation seems to have one. My dads was smoking, mine drinking and my kids, it will be obesity due to todays sendary lifestyle and crap food.

[prand]

PurpleTurtle said:

Here you go, well worth a watch if you like to moderately cane it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bhkc8b

The key thing the Liver specialist said was to have 3-4 days off a week. I guess this is to give the liver time to recover, rather than constantly working it hard with the grog.

The doctor really wasn't amused about Adrian's joke about "giving it something to do, it will get bored"

[Bill]

Trophy Husband said:

Listen to you body. Liver problems are not like a heart attack. There are plenty of warnings, all in good time to take action.

Not according to the liver specialist that took a course my wife was on recently. Liver function tests aren't a very good predictive tool, the cirrhosis needs to be quite far gone to affect function. And the vast majority of those admitted with acute liver failure have no warning, and 80% of them (iirc) are dead within a year.

J4CKO said:

Would you trade 10 years in old age for being able to push the envelope a bit.

You don't lose the slightly rubbish years at the end, you lose the good ones in the middle as you age prematurely.

I'm not preaching but there's no point deluding yourself.

As far as the OP, I actually think the numbers alone don't tell the story. Pouring that much whisky into a glass at once to deal with the work day, every day, isn't a good thing IMO. It's a slippery slope and he needs to deal with the issues before they push him further.

[andy_s]

prand said:

If you can find it on iPlayer, watch the Adrian Chiles documentary, quite a dispassionate and honest show.

He never thought he had a problem as he didn't consider himself a problem drinker, waking up in dooorways, drinking first thing in the morning, fighting etc.

He then kept a drink diary that found he was easily drinking 100 units+ a week! Blood tests said his liver function was fine, but a more detailed scan showed he had early signs of liver disease.

He downloaded the Drinkaware app to track his drinking and tried to get to 14 a week, I think the best he was doing by the end of the show was 25 and he was struggling to do that. I've got it now and use it - it is quite eye opening. Especially the cost calculator which is quite conservative. I spent an estimated £100 on booze just for myself one week after drinking nearly 40 units.

He's now trying hard to moderate his intake. Doctors on the show said the 14 units a week was a sensible level of intake. I know from my experience it would be hard to get to and stay under that level, but I'm trying.

I think one of the points of the show was often people drink more than "necessary", and be moderate rather than trying to punish yourself and give up totally. Try to have more days with zdero drinks, and avoid having one last (or final couple) of drinks, or extra shots, or measures are often pointless, but you have them out of habit, or one for the road. If you cut those out you reduce your intake considerably.

I just came on to post about the Chiles show, interesting.

'If you can't give it up, you are in its grip' - if you can't go without a drink 'just because' as it gives you some form of discomfort or nagging state of 'need to unwind, grab a scotch' then you are already succumbing to its lure, biologically. Whether you can sustain a set limit without it creeping up due to tolerance and habit is then another matter.

'My gran drank a bottle of scotch a day and lived until she was 103' - would you tell your 18 year old son to drink a bottle of scotch a day to ensure a long life?

'The limit in Spain is 35, why are we at 14, it's bks' - Spain and the UK have different drink culture, different political and social circumstances and different studies on their respective populations. If UK was 35, there'd still be people saying it was too low.


I can take it or leave it, it's social lubricant and a savoury drink over a meal. If I never saw a drop again it wouldn't bother me at all.

[boyse7en]

[quote=J4CKO

Would you trade 10 years in old age for being able to push the envelope a bit.


[/quote]


Yes I would. Although it would depend on the circumstances.

My dad just died before christmas. In the last ten years of his life four grandchildren were born, he visited Australia, the west and east coasts of the USA, the Highlands of Scotland, the lake district and France. All of those experiences and relationships would have never been enjoyed if he'd died 10 years earlier.

[andy_s]

boyse7en said:

J4CKO said:

Would you trade 10 years in old age for being able to push the envelope a bit.

Yes I would. Although it would depend on the circumstances.

My dad just died before christmas. In the last ten years of his life four grandchildren were born, he visited Australia, the west and east coasts of the USA, the Highlands of Scotland, the lake district and France. All of those experiences and relationships would have never been enjoyed if he'd died 10 years earlier.

My dad was a raging alcoholic that didn't see much of his children nor grandchildren for his latter 15 years due to his condition. All those experiences and relationships that were never enjoyed.

[anonymous-user]

I think your doing good and could only suggest swapping your ice for a desert spoon of good quality water to enhance the taste of your chosen tipple; enjoy sir

[Dr Jekyll]

andy_s said:

'The limit in Spain is 35, why are we at 14, it's bks' - Spain and the UK have different drink culture, different political and social circumstances and different studies on their respective populations. If UK was 35, there'd still be people saying it was too low.

The biology is the same. If the different studies show different results then at least one of them s wrong.

[andy_s]

Dr Jekyll said:

andy_s said:

'The limit in Spain is 35, why are we at 14, it's bks' - Spain and the UK have different drink culture, different political and social circumstances and different studies on their respective populations. If UK was 35, there'd still be people saying it was too low.

The biology is the same. If the different studies show different results then at least one of them s wrong.

Define 'wrong'; there is no 'right' answer, each country decides based on their evidence, general culture, drinking culture, conditions, revenue, heath care cost, definition of 'healthy', percentage of alcoholics, public stomach for legislation/being told what to drink, social zeitgeist etc etc.

It's multi-variant and essentially subjective to some degree. 14, why not 13 or 15 or 20... like a lot of things, a line is drawn somewhere and slightly either side won't make that much difference anyway. It's a guide after all, not legislation.

[Dr Jekyll]

andy_s said:

Define 'wrong'; there is no 'right' answer, each country decides based on their evidence, general culture, drinking culture, conditions, revenue, heath care cost, definition of 'healthy', percentage of alcoholics, public stomach for legislation/being told what to drink, social zeitgeist etc etc.

It's multi-variant and essentially subjective to some degree. 14, why not 13 or 15 or 20... like a lot of things, a line is drawn somewhere and slightly either side won't make that much difference anyway. It's a guide after all, not legislation.

But cultures, conditions, revenue etc have no bearing on what is a healthy, percentage of alcoholics certainly doesn't. Yet breaching the guidelines is supposed to be inherently unhealthy. The guidelines are, as you say, subjective, in fact arbitrary. More succinctly, 8ollox.

[Bill]

Are they bks? Have the UK been strict and the Spanish accepted they need to be realistic?

Just as you see here, people who think the guidelines are unrealistic dismiss them out of hand. Maybe the Spanish feel that any reduction is helpful, and not being too preachy will be more effective at changing peoples' habits.