Improving my running

[clonmult]

Sowler said:

Do you need access to the phone? Most running shorts have a pocket which neatly fits a phone in at the back. Nike Strides for example do and because of the placement barely know your carrying it, add some Bluetooth headphones and away you go.

On the no headphones in races I've done three now with headphones and had not such as a word from anyone about it.

I found the aftershokz to be the most comfortable headphones I've ever used in a running/gym situation. Every other set of in-ears/on ears ones I've had (whilst sounding better) just weren't as comfortable.

I may go for a camelback/similar, as long as it can be tied around the waist - seen a few reasonable ones that have the space for a bladder in the back, plus a variety of pockets on the front. I'll just be open minded, see what takes my fancy.

[RobM77]

clonmult said:

Sowler said:

Do you need access to the phone? Most running shorts have a pocket which neatly fits a phone in at the back. Nike Strides for example do and because of the placement barely know your carrying it, add some Bluetooth headphones and away you go.

On the no headphones in races I've done three now with headphones and had not such as a word from anyone about it.

I found the aftershokz to be the most comfortable headphones I've ever used in a running/gym situation. Every other set of in-ears/on ears ones I've had (whilst sounding better) just weren't as comfortable.

I may go for a camelback/similar, as long as it can be tied around the waist - seen a few reasonable ones that have the space for a bladder in the back, plus a variety of pockets on the front. I'll just be open minded, see what takes my fancy.

I've had a hiking and cycling Camelbak since 2011 which has waist and chest straps. Last year I decided to get a lighter and more minimalist running camelbak and was dead keen on a waist strap, but noticed that the lightweight running ones only had chest straps. I was worried with just a chest strap that it would flap about. After asking on PH for opinions, it seems most people run with the running ones that only have a chest strap and get along fine with them. I bought a running one and really like it. The only annoying thing is the sloshing of water as you run; you can minimise it by sucking out the air, but it's still there. Mind you, if you wear headphones you may not hear that! One other thing: the new design of bladder has a screw cap that's really easy to cross thread, which will let all the water out, so care is needed there.

[Prof Prolapse]

I wonder if you guys don't mind if I bump your thread with a question...I know nothing about running, I'm very casual about it and I'm just trying to establish what is a decent pace and how hard I should be pushing, for those of you who are more established runners, what sort of pace are you guys doing a 5k in?

[warch]

Prof Prolapse said:

I wonder if you guys don't mind if I bump your thread with a question...I know nothing about running, I'm very casual about it and I'm just trying to establish what is a decent pace and how hard I should be pushing, for those of you who are more established runners, what sort of pace are you guys doing a 5k in?

I've been running to keep fit for almost twenty years now, but am a middle aged fat bloke i.e. 42 yo and 17-18 stone. I can do 5km in 24 and a half minutes, but anything between 25-27 minutes would be more usual. My brother, who isn't exactly a full on athlete but who is just really good at running can do sub 18 minutes.

[RobM77]

Prof Prolapse said:

I wonder if you guys don't mind if I bump your thread with a question...I know nothing about running, I'm very casual about it and I'm just trying to establish what is a decent pace and how hard I should be pushing, for those of you who are more established runners, what sort of pace are you guys doing a 5k in?

Running is a very varied sport. Many people run just for fitness, some run socially and some, like me, train to go as fast as they can. Have a look at your local Parkrun to see these different types of running, and others (such as running with your dog, or even pushing your child in a pushchair!). It really doesn't matter what time you do, as long as you enjoy it. For me the enjoyment is beating times, but I'm beating myself and my own PBs, not those of others.

The trouble with giving times is that there's a lot of overlap between these groups that I've listed. We have a guy who pushes his 3 year old in a pushchair on our off road course with lumps, bumps and puddles etc and he's doing the 5.1km in about 20 minutes, whereas we have runners who train three to four times a week trying to get under 30 minutes.

My local Parkrun is one big 5.1km lap of an off-road gravel and loose ground course and averages about 600-700 runners. It has a fastest finish time each week of about 17 minutes, a men's all time record of 15:25 minutes, and a women's record of 17:14. Anything sub 20 minutes is usually top 20, sub 25mins is top 150. The mean average time is 29 minutes. You can find these stats out for any Parkrun on their website.

Edited to add: Seeing as you're asking, I'm 42 years old, have been running two years, run 3-4 times a week covering 35-40km, and gym once or twice a week. Sadly I tend to pick up niggles and little injuries if I train for speed and I spend much of my time recovering from those. My current PB for 5km is 20:04 at our local Parkrun a few months ago, but I suspect if I treated it as a race with a taper beforehand and a proper warmup etc then I'd be somewhere in the 19s, and if it was smooth level tarmac then I'd be in the high 18s. The only race I've done over a short distance was 4.2km (one leg of a relay marathon with 9 others), which translates to an 18:48 over 5km.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 11th October 12:04

[Abbott]

Robmarriott said:

Tried some hill work tonight, ended up getting a stitch...

However, after a couple of minutes rest and some stretches, I decided to go full Usain Bolt on a slightly uphill segment and only went and got the KOM for it!

I have tried various tricks to combat stitch.
A mate in the office gave me a new trick that I found works extremely well for me.
Principal is that the stitch is caused by build up of CO2 in the lungs so solution is to deep breathing out. Empty the lungs with short breaths in and long breaths out.
It has worked well for me.

[Robmarriott]

RobM77 said:

Prof Prolapse said:

I wonder if you guys don't mind if I bump your thread with a question...I know nothing about running, I'm very casual about it and I'm just trying to establish what is a decent pace and how hard I should be pushing, for those of you who are more established runners, what sort of pace are you guys doing a 5k in?

For me the enjoyment is beating times, but I'm beating myself and my own PBs, not those of others.

A bit of advice I was given near the start of this thread was not to compare myself to others, which I've stuck with. I only compete against me, I'm still on the way up so I'm beating my previous times most of the time but if I started comparing myself to other (even people running the same route) I'd be dejected every time.

For the purpose of a response though, I'm 33, I've been working my arse off all year and my best 5k is 28.55 so far.

[MC Bodge]

Abbott said:

Robmarriott said:

Tried some hill work tonight, ended up getting a stitch...

However, after a couple of minutes rest and some stretches, I decided to go full Usain Bolt on a slightly uphill segment and only went and got the KOM for it!

I have tried various tricks to combat stitch.
A mate in the office gave me a new trick that I found works extremely well for me.
Principal is that the stitch is caused by build up of CO2 in the lungs so solution is to deep breathing out. Empty the lungs with short breaths in and long breaths out.
It has worked well for me.

Breathing from the diaphragm (upper abs mostly move out whilst inhaling, rather than chest) makes a big difference generally.

Lots of people hear it, but few get what it means and fewer develop the habit.

[MC Bodge]

Prof Prolapse said:

I wonder if you guys don't mind if I bump your thread with a question...I know nothing about running, I'm very casual about it and I'm just trying to establish what is a decent pace and how hard I should be pushing, for those of you who are more established runners, what sort of pace are you guys doing a 5k in?

I'm also 42... Not exclusively a runner, and not a skinny Mo Farah type, but I have done 700Km in 105 runs, at various paces, this year.

I can do consistently 19-20min on mixed terrain courses.

On my first attempt (my only attempt at dry, flat, tarmac) at Park Run I did 18:59 2 years ago.

I'm typically beaten by younger, skinny fast people l, sometimes a fast 50 year old and often 1 woman.

Everybody is different.

Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 11th October 13:18

[Abbott]

MC Bodge said:

Prof Prolapse said:

I wonder if you guys don't mind if I bump your thread with a question...I know nothing about running, I'm very casual about it and I'm just trying to establish what is a decent pace and how hard I should be pushing, for those of you who are more established runners, what sort of pace are you guys doing a 5k in?

I'm also 42... Not exclusively a runner, and not a skinny Mo Farah type, but I have done 700Km in 105 runs, at various paces, this year.

I can do consistently 19-20min on mixed terrain courses.

On my first attempt (my only attempt at dry, flat, tarmac) at Park Run I did 18:59 2 years ago.

I'm typically beaten by younger, skinny fast people l, sometimes a fast 50 year old and often 1 woman.

Everybody is different.

Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 11th October 13:18

Does anyone use the Age Gradeient to judge if you are average/ above average
I have PB on Parkrun of just over 25 mins and the gradient telling me it is 64%
If I understand corerectly that means I am batting above average for my age

[RobM77]

Abbott said:

MC Bodge said:

Prof Prolapse said:

I wonder if you guys don't mind if I bump your thread with a question...I know nothing about running, I'm very casual about it and I'm just trying to establish what is a decent pace and how hard I should be pushing, for those of you who are more established runners, what sort of pace are you guys doing a 5k in?

I'm also 42... Not exclusively a runner, and not a skinny Mo Farah type, but I have done 700Km in 105 runs, at various paces, this year.

I can do consistently 19-20min on mixed terrain courses.

On my first attempt (my only attempt at dry, flat, tarmac) at Park Run I did 18:59 2 years ago.

I'm typically beaten by younger, skinny fast people l, sometimes a fast 50 year old and often 1 woman.

Everybody is different.

Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 11th October 13:18

Does anyone use the Age Gradeient to judge if you are average/ above average
I have PB on Parkrun of just over 25 mins and the gradient telling me it is 64%
If I understand corerectly that means I am batting above average for my age

It depends on the context really. There's a huge difference between a 5000m wearing spikes on an athletics track, with a runner who's prepared specifically for that event, and turning up to a wet and muddy Parkrun after a week of running, and the age grading percentage doesn't account for that. What I prefer to do is to see where I finished in my age group at the event I've done.

[Prof Prolapse]

Thanks chaps, really appreciate it. My friends on Strava are, basically crap, so I have no idea what is normal. I could google but asking here seemed preferable.

Yeah I get everyone is different, and it's less about ego (at least not as I understand it), it's just nice to know whether you are objectively good at something or not and where you are relative to your peers. I find it's quite good to aid motivation, and helps you decide where to focus your efforts.

33, ACL damage which limits running opportunities, but run 5K 1-2 times a week on the hilly tracks around my house, doing about 22'-22'30", consistently. Probably knock a minute off that if it's flat or I've not been doing weights before it. Looks like I should be looking to chip some time off that by the sounds of it.

Sorry if covered elsewhere, but Is the best way to get the overall pace up? Sprinting in sections? Hill sprints? Or just pushing harder for longer for the full duration?

I'm not looking to lose any more weight ideally, I'm actually gaining a bit of bulk for other activities. So hard and fast seems the best way to go!

[RobM77]

That's what I was when I started: around 22-23 minutes for 5km. It took about a year to get down to reliable sub 20min pace. I'm now going for 10km, and hopefully half marathon next year.

Having paid to see a very good running coach, listened to a lot of podcasts, watched a lot of You Tube videos and read some books and magazines, the generally accepted wisdom seems to be that there are three key runs runners need to do:

• Long runs to build an aerobic base. These are usually done at a very gentle pace. Often runners add in fast sections, or increase pace towards the end.

• Intervals, where you alternate fast running with recovery. For example, you might do 6 hard 400 metre efforts punctuated by 90 seconds of jogging or walking. The idea is for your pulse to drop back down properly so you can maintain a steady effort throughout the fast intervals.

• Tempo runs, where you can close to your ventilatory or lactate threshold (they're similar for most people), to boost those thresholds and your tolerance for high speeds.

In addition to the above, many runners do mobility exercises and strength training regularly - these can keep injury at bay, and strength ultimately makes you faster.

The other thing you can do is improve your running form to be more efficient - this also helps with injury. When I first started running 12 years ago I got injured within months, and every subsequent time, until I saw a gait specialist who changed my running form and now I'm 2 years into running without any serious problems. That same guy said that most runners run long runs too fast and intervals too slow, so bear that in mind.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 11th October 15:13

[warch]

I want them to introduce a weight gradient for fat blokes like me. I reckon I'm pretty quick for my size.

My local parkrun (Ludlow) is reckoned to be one of the top ten toughest courses, being both very hilly and largely off road. Weirdly though I struggle to really improve my best time (25.45) even in optimal conditions, like on a treadmill. I hate running on the flat or on tarmac because it's so monotonous, off road you have to pick your line and look where you're putting your feet.

[PistonTim]

RobM77 said:

That's what I was when I started: around 22-23 minutes for 5km. It took about a year to get down to reliable sub 20min pace. I'm now going for 10km, and hopefully half marathon next year.

Having paid to see a very good running coach, listened to a lot of podcasts, watched a lot of You Tube videos and read some books and magazines, the generally accepted wisdom seems to be that there are three key runs runners need to do:

• Long runs to build an aerobic base. These are usually done at a very gentle pace. Often runners add in fast sections, or increase pace towards the end.

• Intervals, where you alternate fast running with recovery. For example, you might do 6 hard 400 metre efforts punctuated by 90 seconds of jogging or walking. The idea is for your pulse to drop back down properly so you can maintain a steady effort throughout the fast intervals.

• Tempo runs, where you can close to your ventilatory or lactate threshold (they're similar for most people), to boost those thresholds and your tolerance for high speeds.

In addition to the above, many runners do mobility exercises and strength training regularly - these can keep injury at bay, and strength ultimately makes you faster.

The other thing you can do is improve your running form to be more efficient - this also helps with injury. When I first started running 12 years ago I got injured within months, and every subsequent time, until I saw a gait specialist who changed my running form and now I'm 2 years into running without any serious problems. That same guy said that most runners run long runs too fast and intervals too slow, so bear that in mind.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 11th October 15:13

RobM77 is spot on the money as usual here, the only thing I'd add is train specifically around your races too, so if its a hilly or trail race make sure you include appropriate training into your programme. Amazing how many runners come unstuck at the first slight incline if all they do is train on the flat.

As regards the earlier point about carrying stuff, check out the Aonijie or Decathlon running packs and dont rule out soft chest bottles instead of a fiddly bladder pack, much easier to manage day to day and mid-race and cheap. The Salomon Skin series are brilliant, I use the 12 for marathons and ultras and well worth the money if you need to carry mandatory kit etc as well as hydration.

Edited by PistonTim on Friday 11th October 15:27

Edited by PistonTim on Friday 11th October 15:27

[MC Bodge]

I agree with RobM77.

Good running form makes a huge difference.

If you have good dynamic strength, posture, running form/efficiency, a good aerobic (and anaerobic) base and the ability to flog yourself hard in a race you will go faster.

[Prof Prolapse]

RobM77 said:

That's what I was when I started: around 22-23 minutes for 5km. It took about a year to get down to reliable sub 20min pace. I'm now going for 10km, and hopefully half marathon next year.

Having paid to see a very good running coach, listened to a lot of podcasts, watched a lot of You Tube videos and read some books and magazines, the generally accepted wisdom seems to be that there are three key runs runners need to do:

• Long runs to build an aerobic base. These are usually done at a very gentle pace. Often runners add in fast sections, or increase pace towards the end.

• Intervals, where you alternate fast running with recovery. For example, you might do 6 hard 400 metre efforts punctuated by 90 seconds of jogging or walking. The idea is for your pulse to drop back down properly so you can maintain a steady effort throughout.

• Tempo runs, where you can close to your ventilatory or lactate threshold (they're similar for most people), to boost those thresholds and your tolerance for high speeds.

In addition to the above, many runners do mobility exercises and strength training regularly - these can keep injury at bay, and strength ultimately makes you faster.

The other thing you can do is improve your running form to be more efficient - this also helps with injury. When I first started running 12 years ago I got injured within months, and every subsequent time, until I saw a gait specialist who changed my running form and now I'm 2 years into running without any serious problems. That same guy said that most runners run long runs too fast and intervals too slow, so bear that in mind.

Thanks for this mate, very much appreciated.

I read a bit about the tempo runs and it suggests over a 5K it may not beneficial, any thoughts?

I'm wary of long runs as I find that they (a) aggrevate my ACL injury more than hard runs, (b) I struggle to find the time, and (c) I say I'm trying to gain weight, but don't mind the odd one.

I'll stick some intervals in the 5K, and do the odd 10K. Seems a reasonable starter plan based on what you've said.

What's the best way to look at form? Youtube clips?

[RobM77]

Prof Prolapse said:

RobM77 said:

That's what I was when I started: around 22-23 minutes for 5km. It took about a year to get down to reliable sub 20min pace. I'm now going for 10km, and hopefully half marathon next year.

Having paid to see a very good running coach, listened to a lot of podcasts, watched a lot of You Tube videos and read some books and magazines, the generally accepted wisdom seems to be that there are three key runs runners need to do:

• Long runs to build an aerobic base. These are usually done at a very gentle pace. Often runners add in fast sections, or increase pace towards the end.

• Intervals, where you alternate fast running with recovery. For example, you might do 6 hard 400 metre efforts punctuated by 90 seconds of jogging or walking. The idea is for your pulse to drop back down properly so you can maintain a steady effort throughout.

• Tempo runs, where you can close to your ventilatory or lactate threshold (they're similar for most people), to boost those thresholds and your tolerance for high speeds.

In addition to the above, many runners do mobility exercises and strength training regularly - these can keep injury at bay, and strength ultimately makes you faster.

The other thing you can do is improve your running form to be more efficient - this also helps with injury. When I first started running 12 years ago I got injured within months, and every subsequent time, until I saw a gait specialist who changed my running form and now I'm 2 years into running without any serious problems. That same guy said that most runners run long runs too fast and intervals too slow, so bear that in mind.

Thanks for this mate, very much appreciated.

I read a bit about the tempo runs and it suggests over a 5K it may not beneficial, any thoughts?

I'm wary of long runs as I find that they (a) aggrevate my ACL injury more than hard runs, (b) I struggle to find the time, and (c) I say I'm trying to gain weight, but don't mind the odd one.

I'll stick some intervals in the 5K, and do the odd 10K. Seems a reasonable starter plan based on what you've said.

What's the best way to look at form? Youtube clips?

No worries, glad to be of help.

Tempo runs are included in most 5k race plans, such as Furman: https://t3triteam.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/furm... I've only been running two years, so I'll point you to plans like those rather than my own inexperienced opinion. Having said that, I dropped tempo runs this summer to recovery from some niggles (as recommended to me by a coach and injury specialist) and yes, my endurance at speed did suffer - I even stopped in the middle of a Parkrun once!

With the long runs, try backing right off and running them really slowly. Aim for a pace where you can hold a conversation in full sentences. If you have a heart rate monitor aim for about 140bpm. This may be as much as 1min30s to 2mins off your 5k race pace. It's the total loading that matters for injuries, so a moderate 5km may be equivalent to a really easy 15km run in terms of impact.

Form is something I've worked on with my running with a gait coach and especially with swimming, where I had one to one coaching with underwater cameras for three years to improve my form. In both, my form has changed radically and my speed and tendency to injury have been improved. You Tube is bristling with form videos, but there are two dangers to this: 1) You can't see what you're doing, so it's really hard to get any feedback when you're trying stuff out and you don't know what you're doing right or wrong. 2) You don't know what your specific weaknesses are, so you may end up concentrating on the wrong things. As such, I'd really recommend booking at least one session with a specialist - they may also be able to give you strength exercises to minimise the impact on your ACL.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 11th October 15:49

[MC Bodge]

Prof Prolapse said:

Thanks for this mate, very much appreciated.

I read a bit about the tempo runs and it suggests over a 5K it may not beneficial, any thoughts?

I'm wary of long runs as I find that they (a) aggrevate my ACL injury more than hard runs, (b) I struggle to find the time, and (c) I say I'm trying to gain weight, but don't mind the odd one.

I'll stick some intervals in the 5K, and do the odd 10K. Seems a reasonable starter plan based on what you've said.

What's the best way to look at form? Youtube clips?

Running long distances is about training your body to run efficiently. Multiple shorter runs might do you.

Short (up to a few minutes) HARD efforts are very beneficial.

Form can be summarised as:

Straight & tall body, leaning from the ankles, swing bent arms from the shoulder and not across the body, lift knees high, flex hips, land
on mid/fore foot (gentle landing underneath you, not in front of you), dropping gently to heel, high cadence. Concentrate on lifting the knees.

To do the above well, you need strong calves, feet, hips, hamstrings, core etc.

It takes practice.

[Prof Prolapse]

Thanks all. There's actually a running school in town who look at your running style. It's "only" about £90 as well, pretty good investment really!

To be honest if saves me another bad aggravation of the ACL injury, I'm actually thinking that should be my focus before anything else.

Thanks all!