Fitness gurus on the juice...

[R.Sole]

mcelliott said:

Pvapour said:

Try being in the hills on the cote d’azur of a sunday, seeing the 80yr old guys negotiating the hills on their bikes leaves your jaw on the floor, simply incredible! Total and utter respect, totally different breed to needle users

The average gym rat wouldn't have the tenacity or discipline to live with those guys, hard as fkin nails.

Same in Tuscany,60/70/80 year old guys with walnut coloured skin and lean as whippets.

[Pvapour]

R.Sole said:

mcelliott said:

Pvapour said:

Try being in the hills on the cote d’azur of a sunday, seeing the 80yr old guys negotiating the hills on their bikes leaves your jaw on the floor, simply incredible! Total and utter respect, totally different breed to needle users

The average gym rat wouldn't have the tenacity or discipline to live with those guys, hard as fkin nails.

Same in Tuscany,60/70/80 year old guys with walnut coloured skin and lean as whippets.

[popeyewhite]

Four Litre said:

Your confusing abuse with somebody who has a tumour which stops production.

No, I don't think so, but it might have helped if you'd said so. I'm still perplexed as to the mechanism that lets you eat fast food and not gain weight!

Four Litre said:

Without injections Im pretty much horizontal with exhaustion. Its not pleasant at all.

And if you're going from that state to worrying about carrying too much muscle then your TRT dosage is much too high.

[MC Bodge]

Pvapour said:

Try being in the hills on the cote d’azur of a sunday, seeing the 80yr old guys negotiating the hills on their bikes leaves your jaw on the floor, simply incredible! Total and utter respect, totally different breed to needle users

I know a UK man in his mid 80s who only gave up time trialling, at a very good standard, in the past couple of years. He still does road rides and is on Zwift.

[popeyewhite]

Tiggsy said:

Exactly. It’s BS to dismiss wearing glasses as anything other than accident prevention! It is more pleasurable to maintain the quality of health you had when younger. Anyone saying otherwise is talking nonsense. Can anyone name ONE deterioration due to age that they are glad happens????

If people don’t want to artificialy maintain youthful qualities due to cost, fear, morals.....that’s 100% cool. But I enjoy doing otherwise. Same as I drive an unnatural car, and accept all the risks of doing so, because I prefer to travel long distances with that degree of assistance.

The eye analogy is incorrect - glasses only affect one organ, not the entire body or more than one organ. The skin is another organ and we know it ages quicker with test. It might be the case that if you supplement when your natural test runs out that you age your internal organs more quickly, and actually shorten your later years. Simply put if you performance tune a car engine most people would also upgrade the brakes and suspension, tyres etc.

[Tiggsy]

popeyewhite said:

Simply put if you performance tune a car engine most people would also upgrade the brakes and suspension, tyres etc.

If the quality of petrol you ran the car on got worse over the years, you’d look to restore the quality of petrol.

Again, if people want to allow age to deteriorate their abilities I’m 100% behind allowing them to go so. And if people don’t, I’m all for that too.

Everything has risks and rewards. Hence the car which kills thousands (I assume you still drive?) and isn’t it cool we are free to own a car or not. But you can’t pick to walk then tell drivers their are heading for an early grave! Well, you can.....but it looks silly.

[MC Bodge]

Tiggsy said:

If the quality of petrol you ran the car on got worse over the years, you’d look to restore the quality of petrol.

Again, if people want to allow age to deteriorate their abilities I’m 100% behind allowing them to go so. And if people don’t, I’m all for that too.

Everything has risks and rewards. Hence the car which kills thousands (I assume you still drive?) and isn’t it cool we are free to own a car or not. But you can’t pick to walk then tell drivers their are heading for an early grave! Well, you can.....but it looks silly.

This appears to have little to do with "Fitness Gurus on the Juice" and much more to do with PHers justifying their own use of PEDs, for pseudo-medical reasons or otherwise.

[Tiggsy]

MC Bodge said:

Tiggsy said:

If the quality of petrol you ran the car on got worse over the years, you’d look to restore the quality of petrol.

Again, if people want to allow age to deteriorate their abilities I’m 100% behind allowing them to go so. And if people don’t, I’m all for that too.

Everything has risks and rewards. Hence the car which kills thousands (I assume you still drive?) and isn’t it cool we are free to own a car or not. But you can’t pick to walk then tell drivers their are heading for an early grave! Well, you can.....but it looks silly.

This appears to have little to do with "Fitness Gurus on the Juice" and much more to do with PHers justifying their own use of PEDs, for pseudo-medical reasons or otherwise.

Indeed I’m much more interested in people using their physic to generate income from the naive and not being open about it (but people asked about TRT)

[ORD]

I don’t think there’s a huge amount to say about fake Natty fitness gurus. They’re frauds and charlatans. They probably do a fair bit of harm in terms of setting up people for failure and giving up.

Take a look at natural bodybuilding any time you need reminding how low the bar is if you remove PEDs. Those guys probably still use a bit, or at least many of them do, and they’re tiny. It’s

[Pvapour]

MC Bodge said:

Tiggsy said:

If the quality of petrol you ran the car on got worse over the years, you’d look to restore the quality of petrol.

Again, if people want to allow age to deteriorate their abilities I’m 100% behind allowing them to go so. And if people don’t, I’m all for that too.

Everything has risks and rewards. Hence the car which kills thousands (I assume you still drive?) and isn’t it cool we are free to own a car or not. But you can’t pick to walk then tell drivers their are heading for an early grave! Well, you can.....but it looks silly.

This appears to have little to do with "Fitness Gurus on the Juice" and much more to do with PHers justifying their own use of PEDs, for pseudo-medical reasons or otherwise.

Quite, its always been the same though and for me one of the most interesting psychological side effects of PEDs, the lengths users will go to in convincing themselves and others that theyre ok.

Funnily enough its the psychological side effects of PEDs that are far more dangerous than the physical as it distorts theyre usage of the drugs which leads to greater physical damage, no point in debating it with them as they’ll never see it whilst using, talk with them after the damage is done many years later & their views are very very different.

[MC Bodge]

Tiggsy said:

Indeed I’m much more interested in people using their physic to generate income from the naive and not being open about it (but people asked about TRT)

You are one of those I'm talking about.

[Jim on the hill]

MC Bodge said:

Tiggsy said:

Indeed I’m much more interested in people using their physic to generate income from the naive and not being open about it (but people asked about TRT)

You are one of those I'm talking about.

Tiggsy isn't making an income yet however I do agree he isn't being truthful. I think he's quite in denial about how much the TRT is helping.

However fair play for posting a thread, asking the question and opening himself up the judgement.

[MC Bodge]

ORD said:

I don’t think there’s a huge amount to say about fake Natty fitness gurus. They’re frauds and charlatans. They probably do a fair bit of harm in terms of setting up people for failure and giving up.

Take a look at natural bodybuilding any time you need reminding how low the bar is if you remove PEDs. Those guys probably still use a bit, or at least many of them do, and they’re tiny. It’s

We are all so used to seeing very muscular men (some of whom also appear to also be able to do feats of aerobic endurance whilst remaining muscular) nowadays on photos and in film, it has started to appear "normal", even though it isn't.

[didelydoo]

Good on Tiggsy- everyone is keen to jump in and say that he's 'cheating' or in denial, having pretty much zero idea about how he trains, his diet, how much effort he puts in (which, from the looks of it, is very hard, consistently and on point). It appears as many may even be a wee bit green eyed about the 'needle users' who may continue to push into old age.

He's made this choice to increase the quality of his life, it's working, he's happy- that's important, and over looked. It's not particularly likely to lead to long term issues, he gets more check ups than most other do, and he's more active that most. This thread is jumped way off topic, and is full of assumptions & half assed 'knowledge'.

You can slowly decline, until you're the noblest pensioner pissing yourself in a nursing home. Or you can improve your lot. The aim of life is not longevity over everything- it's got to be balanced with quality of life. I'm know this will be poopooed, but each to their own IMO- we're all going to die, could be your day today, enjoy your time here while you can, the best you can.

[popeyewhite]

Tiggsy said:

If the quality of petrol you ran the car on got worse over the years, you’d look to restore the quality of petrol.

Your car isn't expected to last decades.

Tiggsy said:

Again, if people want to allow age to deteriorate their abilities I’m 100% behind allowing them to go so. And if people don’t, I’m all for that too

Aging is natural, and most men's test is only 30% down by 70 years of age. Blucher lead the Polish cavalry at Waterloo at 72. And there's a huge amount more to ageing than being physicallly fit and well muscled: you might feel slightly lonely when all your friends are playing bowls and getting early nights, thinking philosophically about the meaning of life and you're thinking Hulk smash.

Tiggsy said:

Everything has risks and rewards.

Not everything has the potential consequence of fatal disease (heart attack, stroke, liver), prostate cancer, and gyno.

[R.Sole]

We are living in a “want it all now” generation and that includes “sport performance” which is compounded by the YouTube/instabook crowd!
Take what you like but don’t kid yourself that your performance is not being hugely increased by the PEDs.
As for the full natty Youtubers conning people out of their cash they are no better than the scammers stealing of the elderly imo!

[didelydoo]

For those talking about the TRT risks

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26482385 -
There remains no evidence that TRT is associated with increased risk of prostate cancer...
The cardiovascular issues associated with TRT have been clarified by recent studies showing that therapy associated with clear increases in serum testosterone levels to the normal range is associated with *reduced* all-cause mortality....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC64629...
In recent randomized controlled trials, TRT did not significantly increase the rate of prostate cancer in testosterone deficient older men who received TRT compared with those who received placebo...
Low testosterone levels are associated with an increased incidence of major adverse cardiac events, such as myocardial infarction, stroke, and possible cardiovascular-related mortality, and an increased prevalence of certain atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease risk factors....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC42124...
At this time, TRT remains a largely beneficial option in improving health-related quality of life in men

Older myths about SENSIBLE TRT doses causing all kinds of problem are largely not true. Most evidence is now pointing towards it being a good thing, in all respects. It's begin looked in to more deeply, but those worrying about the long term risks, would be better thinking about the long term benefits.

I've no bug bear, i simply don't care who does what, each to their own- but lets not get the facts wrong.

Edited by didelydoo on Monday 27th January 11:30

[markcoznottz]

popeyewhite said:

Tiggsy said:

If the quality of petrol you ran the car on got worse over the years, you’d look to restore the quality of petrol.

Your car isn't expected to last decades.

Tiggsy said:

Again, if people want to allow age to deteriorate their abilities I’m 100% behind allowing them to go so. And if people don’t, I’m all for that too

Aging is natural, and most men's test is only 30% down by 70 years of age. Blucher lead the Polish cavalry at Waterloo at 72. And there's a huge amount more to ageing than being physicallly fit and well muscled: you might feel slightly lonely when all your friends are playing bowls and getting early nights, thinking philosophically about the meaning of life and you're thinking Hulk smash.

Tiggsy said:

Everything has risks and rewards.

Not everything has the potential consequence of fatal disease (heart attack, stroke, liver), prostate cancer, and gyno.

Suprise suprise, most people singing the praises of trt are ex juicers. I didn't understand his post about pushing test levels outside i.e. above the normal range. How the hell is that bringing test levels back to normal. There's little chance of a uk doctor prescribing above average range dose, they aren't there to offer lifestyle choices, so that must mean buying your own, with all the issues that might bring. There will in ten years be an epidemic of 30 year olds presenting themselves to thier gp with very low test from ped use.

[popeyewhite]

didelydoo said:

Older myths about SENSIBLE TRT doses causing all kinds of problem are largely not true. Most evidence is now pointing towards it being a good thing

I don't think anyone is saying medically approved TRT doses to address hypgonadism is a bad idea. Just that the jury is still out on long term usage at elevated levels. There have been no longitudinal trials, so it's impossible to say how 30 years on TRT will affect the human body. What is clear is that some people are on elevated levels of TRT beyond the level normally associated with addressing hypogonadism. Some I know are on 70-120 mg pw, almost double the TRT dose. As others have noted, justification for elevated doses can vary.

[didelydoo]

popeyewhite said:

I don't think anyone is saying medically approved TRT doses to address hypgonadism is a bad idea. Just that the jury is still out on long term usage at elevated levels. There have been no longitudinal trials, so it's impossible to say how 30 years on TRT will affect the human body. What is clear is that some people are on elevated levels of TRT beyond the level normally associated with addressing hypogonadism. Some I know are on 70-120 mg pw, almost double the TRT dose. As others have noted, justification for elevated doses can vary.

Much of the research was based on 150mg every 2 weeks/75mg a week.