Fitness gurus on the juice...

[popeyewhite]

didelydoo said:

Much of the research was based on 150mg every 2 weeks/75mg a week.

That's a huge amount of reading.

didelydoo said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC64629...

"The dosing schedule of testosterone should be adjusted to achieve a total testosterone level in the middle tertile of the normal physiologic range.."

For a man of 50, 75mg is high isn't it?

Here's some recent (2019), and possibly more valid, research (av age 57, av time on TRT 6 years):

Interesting bit: "Conclusion: In our study, very small percentage of patients developed IHD (ischemic heart disease) and VTE (Venous thromboembolism) and none developed stroke after starting TRT. While cardiac symptoms worsened in 50% men with preexisting cardiac disease, no major cardiovascular events occurred. So we feel it is safe to prescribe TRT irrespective of age or pre-existing IHD with cautious monitoring."

https://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0065/ea0065...

[didelydoo]

popeyewhite said:

"The dosing schedule of testosterone should be adjusted to achieve a total testosterone level in the middle tertile of the normal physiologic range.."

For a man of 50, 75mg is high isn't it?

Here's some recent (2019), and possibly more valid, research (av age 57, av time on TRT 6 years):

Interesting bit: "Conclusion: In our study, very small percentage of patients developed IHD (ischemic heart disease) and VTE (Venous thromboembolism) and none developed stroke after starting TRT. While cardiac symptoms worsened in 50% men with preexisting cardiac disease, no major cardiovascular events occurred. So we feel it is safe to prescribe TRT irrespective of age or pre-existing IHD with cautious monitoring."

https://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0065/ea0065...

Yes- a common theme in much of the research seems to be that there is a potential for pre-existing cardiac issues to be exacerbated (though no telling if that would have happened anyway) But, not always the case. If you've a clean bill of health, the upsides seem to outweigh the downsides by a substantial margin.

[TheJimi]

didelydoo said:

Good on Tiggsy- everyone is keen to jump in and say that he's 'cheating' or in denial, having pretty much zero idea about how he trains, his diet, how much effort he puts in (which, from the looks of it, is very hard, consistently and on point). It appears as many may even be a wee bit green eyed about the 'needle users' who may continue to push into old age.

No green eyed monster here mate

I’ve actually got zero issue with folk using whatever they want use, the only thing I take issue with is the lack of transparency & honesty.  Whether it’s outright lies (claiming natural when not) or whether by complete omission.  

That’s why I’ve got a LOT of respect for those who are open and talk freely about their own usage.  Calum Von Moger is one – he did a really good video on it last year, ditto Larry Wheels.

[didelydoo]

TheJimi said:

No green eyed monster here mate

I’ve actually got zero issue with folk using whatever they want use, the only thing I take issue with is the lack of transparency & honesty.  Whether it’s outright lies (claiming natural when not) or whether by complete omission.  

That’s why I’ve got a LOT of respect for those who are open and talk freely about their own usage.  Calum Von Moger is one – he did a really good video on it last year, ditto Larry Wheels.

Didn't have you in mind, don't worry!

It's true enough, you're correct- but there's never going to be transparency- there's big money involved, and sponsorship deals to be lost. These people get paid to look a certain way. Certain bigger names are transparent with it, usually because they've had to be due to saying certain things before they were big. Certain names get big because of their transparency.

But, people will always be fooled, people will always be dishonest, such is life across all industries where money is to be made, and shortcuts are promised.

[Pvapour]

didelydoo said:

TheJimi said:

No green eyed monster here mate

I’ve actually got zero issue with folk using whatever they want use, the only thing I take issue with is the lack of transparency & honesty.  Whether it’s outright lies (claiming natural when not) or whether by complete omission.  

That’s why I’ve got a LOT of respect for those who are open and talk freely about their own usage.  Calum Von Moger is one – he did a really good video on it last year, ditto Larry Wheels.

Didn't have you in mind, don't worry!

It's true enough, you're correct- but there's never going to be transparency- there's big money involved, and sponsorship deals to be lost. These people get paid to look a certain way. Certain bigger names are transparent with it, usually because they've had to be due to saying certain things before they were big. Certain names get big because of their transparency.

But, people will always be fooled, people will always be dishonest, such is life across all industries where money is to be made, and shortcuts are promised.

Someone who is on Medical issue trt (like tigsy) just looks natural and like someone who works damn hard at their achievements, excess trt stands out like a sore thumb to me as does other ped use, they think it looks good but it looks ste to me as it looks unnatural, oily, square, spotty, thick skin or over thin skin, i can spot them a mile off.

I actually feel sorry for them tbh as i know whats lead them there, once you understand then theres nothing to be green eyed about, unfortunately younger impressionable people dont have that insight or dont question deep enough, i was a pain in the arse to my peers on how deep i dug but i’m glad i did.

[popeyewhite]

didelydoo said:

Yes- a common theme in much of the research seems to be that there is a potential for pre-existing cardiac issues to be exacerbated (though no telling if that would have happened anyway) But, not always the case. If you've a clean bill of health, the upsides seem to outweigh the downsides by a substantial margin.

Need to be careful here - no longitudinal studies exist. Relatively short term studies fall on the side of you'd be unlucky to develop anything nasty if you stuck to prescribed doses, but no large scale studies exist that show what might happen if you took TRT for a couple of decades.

Out of interest are you on TRT DD?

[Tiggsy]

Pvapour said:

Someone who is on Medical issue trt (like tigsy) just looks natural and like someone who works damn hard at their achievements.

Indeed - mostly due to the large mileage I run, my size is more like a swimmer build than a lifter. Which is perfect, my "size" aim is nothing more than to be able to run as much as I do and still look like a swimmer. Most people doing my endurance stuff would be a lot smaller. But thats because they are skinny, no upper body, endurance types - don't mistake that for me being big! There is nothing odd about my look other than I finish fun runs with people a few lbs lighter. I'm hardly the target of the next Netflix expose!

My dose is standard UK prescribe - that means it comes off the back of a medically diagnosed deficiency. It's 100% the case that, with treatment, I jump from way below norm to above it. But so what? No one is disadvantaged by that. With glasses I can see better than most "normal sighted" 46 year olds, despite being short sighted.

The health issues are not really worth getting into here - people just have to do their own research and pick based on the risk/rewards. There's plenty of research showing mild TRT has a bunch of health positive impacts. The heart issues seem to impact those with existing issues. I have a resting pulse of 39 so I'm going to, unscientifically, guess my heart has no issues yet. At the end of the day, I do a LOT of things that have far higher risks but I do anyway as I enjoy them. I ride motorbikes, I holiday to some iffy places, I drive a fast car...I do TRT.

The cheating issue I am interested in - but I'm not sure I'm a good example??? I make no income from what I do....it costs me!! How I look is a) not impacted by TRT beyond my point above and b) nothing to do with any message I may have on fitness - which is, in simple terms, that anyone putting in some effort can get to a better than average state and it's worth trying as that's fun. I'm talking about getting your parkrun to 24 minutes! Not deadlifting 400KG

I'm also VERY happy to discuss if I'm lying to myself - I'm not sure where I am though? I know there may be risks. I know there are benefits. I have a fitness regime better than most. Diet better than most. Medical checks better than most. It's not like I'm getting gear from behind the bike sheds!
My only, personal, dilema is the inner battle to avoid pushing doses higher for continuing improvements. But thats just an inner dialogue I have with myself. It's no different to "shall I work 60 hrs per week and earn loads more but increase stress levels"....etc, etc. No one is hurt by my choice.

I'm open to people doing what they like if no one is hurt....hence I wouldn't stop the old men on their bicycles everyone was cheering for because they seem to be having fun - despite a high risk of skin cancer. I'm also delighted for folks looking forward to aging naturally. I hope it's great for them. I'm not sure why me skipping the gardening and going running at 65, looking 45, would bother them?

TRT/steroid ABUSE buy those lying to the public where the physic correlates directly to the income.....that I dislike. Someone like Chris Hemsworth, Christian Bale, etc coming out and explaining how they prep for a movie might do the world of good. Although - maybe not, people would stop trying to achieve the impossible in the gym and just copy what they REALLY do. Maybe??

[Four Litre]

egor110 said:

If you need glasses it's because your going to be a danger to the public without them .

Nobody's going to smash there car up because they have low testosterone , unlike being short sighted .

I can tell you for certain they will when you get low enough. I could barely function and eventually passed out at work. Was horizontal for a number of weeks until we worked out through brain scans what was wrong with me. I would say in my case it was worse than no glasses as I could barely function.

[Four Litre]

popeyewhite said:

Four Litre said:

Your confusing abuse with somebody who has a tumour which stops production.

No, I don't think so, but it might have helped if you'd said so. I'm still perplexed as to the mechanism that lets you eat fast food and not gain weight!

Four Litre said:

Without injections Im pretty much horizontal with exhaustion. Its not pleasant at all.

And if you're going from that state to worrying about carrying too much muscle then your TRT dosage is much too high.

Thanks for the apology, fully accepted.

My post was tongue in cheek and I get my levels checked every few months, currently 14.4 so I wouldn't call that too high.

Maybe not jumping to assumptions would help you, not everyone takes TRT to get big, some people are ill and without it cant function.

[MC Bodge]

It probably should be more widely publicised that what is seen as "an ideal" in the media, film, Instagram, here etc. is often, to some extent, artificially enhanced. People do still need to train hard, of course, but the visible (and performance) results will be different to those relying on naturally produced hormones.

It is also worth noting that the fitness guru photos are not how they look 365 days a year.

Men are beginning to be put under the sort of pressure to conform to a physical appearance that women have been for a very long time.

We all have different aims and the modern trend for young lads to have big arms and spindly legs look isn't for me.

[popeyewhite]

Four Litre said:

Thanks for the apology, fully accepted.

My post was tongue in cheek and I get my levels checked every few months, currently 14.4 so I wouldn't call that too high.

Maybe not jumping to assumptions would help you, not everyone takes TRT to get big, some people are ill and without it cant function.

You've lost me. If your post was tongue in cheek what do I need to apologise for? This is what you said:

Four Litre said:

I'm also on TRT and the difference between me on and off is astonishing! I'm middle aged and have been to the gym and ran since I was 19-20 years old. Since starting TRT 2+ years ago I've lost loads of fat and put on loads of muscle. So much so its starting to get silly as I look in the mirror and think " Who's that!"

Performance in running and training is night and day, post starting TRT, therefore I wonder if my body had produced testosterone would I of looked/performed like this a long time ago, or if I carry on will I end up looking like the Rocks distant UK cousin by xmas!

I'm pretty open about it with my mates, they all constantly ask me for some as they are declining physically, whereas I seem to be doing the opposite!

I said if the above was correct your dosage is too high, and I'm correct. Please tell me what I should I apologise for?

[Tiggsy]

MC Bodge said:

Men are beginning to be put under the sort of pressure to conform to a physical appearance that women have been for a very long time.

Whats interesting - and the same with women...is that it is 100% true that people are under more pressure than ever.....yet most of them are fatter than ever! It's almost like the "ideal" is moved so far from achievable that they give up with a burger and fries.

[popeyewhite]

Tiggsy said:

MC Bodge said:

Men are beginning to be put under the sort of pressure to conform to a physical appearance that women have been for a very long time.

Whats interesting - and the same with women...is that it is 100% true that people are under more pressure than ever.....yet most of them are fatter than ever! It's almost like the "ideal" is moved so far from achievable that they give up with a burger and fries.

I think it's never been easier to be distracted from exercise. And the two most pernicious inventions of the modern era, mobile phones and social media, both encourage a sedentary lifestyle.

[Tiggsy]

popeyewhite said:

I think it's never been easier to be distracted from exercise. And the two most pernicious inventions of the modern era, mobile phones and social media, both encourage a sedentary lifestyle.

I think food is a bigger one (although we could argue exercise V food forever!)

I've never been inactive.....but I have been 23 stone and could do a multiple 10k calorie a day binge with ease. I'm convinced we'll look back in 50 years and regard our eating like we see smokers from the 1950's

[mcelliott]

Tiggsy said:

Whats interesting - and the same with women...is that it is 100% true that people are under more pressure than ever.....yet most of them are fatter than ever! It's almost like the "ideal" is moved so far from achievable that they give up with a burger and fries.

People are lazy, the average Joe has no idea what goes into achieving a decent level of fitness/physical development, often witnessed in threads on here.

[ORD]

I agree with the point about fitness gurus not looking like that year round, assuming they are natural.

I know a guy that’s been on the cover of various magazines and competed in natural bodybuilding. He looks pretty normal except in the 4-6 weeks leading up to a photoshoot, then the starvation begins. He’s been known to burst into tears during a cut. It’s not much fun.

He’s a very smart guy about his training and nutrition. I would guess he weighs about 78kg one stage, if that.

I’ve only ever been below about 10% body fat once, and it was fairly unpleasant. I think people dramatically underestimate how hard it is to get very lean, let alone staying there for months.

[MC Bodge]

Tiggsy said:

MC Bodge said:

Men are beginning to be put under the sort of pressure to conform to a physical appearance that women have been for a very long time.

Whats interesting - and the same with women...is that it is 100% true that people are under more pressure than ever.....yet most of them are fatter than ever! It's almost like the "ideal" is moved so far from achievable that they give up with a burger and fries.

Very true. What many think of as ageing is, in most cases, a result of long term lifestyle choices.

I am led to believe that testosterone levels can actually change as a response to eating, health, sleep, exercise etc.

[MC Bodge]

Frequent snacking.

That is the reason for the normalisation of obesity.

[Tiggsy]

mcelliott said:

People are lazy, the average Joe has no idea what goes into achieving a decent level of fitness/physical development, often witnessed in threads on here.

While true - It's not 100% the case. "Lazy" as a description is dangerously misleading - it's like calling terrorists cowards. It sounds good but misses the point and leaves the real issue unresolved.

I was a gym instructor for years - long before I got fat. I knew exactly what to do in order to drop weight. And lazy would be to sit on the sofa and do nothing - I'd get in the car and drive 30 mins to find a McDonalds. It takes effort to overeat......more effort than doing nothing.

People eating too much that is bad for them is more than being lazy. You wouldn't call an alcoholic lazy - having known alcoholics and overeaters....they share A LOT of similar traits.

[popeyewhite]

Tiggsy said:

While true - It's not 100% the case. "Lazy" as a description is dangerously misleading - it's like calling terrorists cowards. It sounds good but misses the point and leaves the real issue unresolved.

I was a gym instructor for years - long before I got fat. I knew exactly what to do in order to drop weight. And lazy would be to sit on the sofa and do nothing - I'd get in the car and drive 30 mins to find a McDonalds. It takes effort to overeat......more effort than doing nothing.

People eating too much that is bad for them is more than being lazy. You wouldn't call an alcoholic lazy - having known alcoholics and overeaters....they share A LOT of similar traits.

I think you're saying the effort must equal the reward, and I'd broadly agree. There's a nice full stomach and dopamine hit for the couch potato when he gets to Maccy Ds, but for the exerciser the results are much more long term - so we're talking commitment and dedication - and in the interim little reward other than psychological. How does that sit with people who take PEDS to shortcut their progress? More or less commitment - could be argued either way.