Fitness gurus on the juice...
Discussion
For what it's worth and to answer those talking about the difference it makes...
I ran a 5K 20.06 in late summer - no TRT. Stayed off the short distances as I was tied up with OCR racing and much longer stuff.
Ran on the 1st Jan for a laugh as I had nothing else to do - ran 19.38. Started TRT around October I think.
So I was quicker by some way....BUT (and please note...if this comes across as kidding myself..call it! I am genuinely interested in all aspects of this. Is it real, placebo, age, TRT....I'm open to anything)
a) I'd have got quicker via the distance stuff I was doing - running 50K won't make me run fast, as such.....but it makes 5k feel pretty short. So the training would have helped anyway.
b) I only got into running a few years ago with a 35m 5k time!!! So yes, I'm old...but I'm a new runner with newbie gains.
That said, I'm pretty sure the TRT helps more indirectly. It reduces my need for recovery time, up's my motivation. The very fact I ran at all was because I jumped out of bed on NY day and thought "hey, lets run" And on when I'm half way round...maybe the "feel good" factor is half placebo???? I'll take that though! More placebo please!
And - I'm a rubbish example of seeing the obvious signs of steroid use - I lift to stay away from looking like the average runner in my sport of OCR racing. My training is RUBBISH for OCR and lifting but cool for me. For example, I'm just back from doing legs. After I smoked them on deads I finished with 2k on the treadmill at 3.45 p/km pace - thats not a good way to train legs for size and big dead lifts are pretty useless for OCR. But it lets me get my big lifts in and have my legs push through some serious pain. When I'm 20k into a race going up a mountain with a sand bag on my back.....it helps. Other than that - it's daft.
I ran a 5K 20.06 in late summer - no TRT. Stayed off the short distances as I was tied up with OCR racing and much longer stuff.
Ran on the 1st Jan for a laugh as I had nothing else to do - ran 19.38. Started TRT around October I think.
So I was quicker by some way....BUT (and please note...if this comes across as kidding myself..call it! I am genuinely interested in all aspects of this. Is it real, placebo, age, TRT....I'm open to anything)
a) I'd have got quicker via the distance stuff I was doing - running 50K won't make me run fast, as such.....but it makes 5k feel pretty short. So the training would have helped anyway.
b) I only got into running a few years ago with a 35m 5k time!!! So yes, I'm old...but I'm a new runner with newbie gains.
That said, I'm pretty sure the TRT helps more indirectly. It reduces my need for recovery time, up's my motivation. The very fact I ran at all was because I jumped out of bed on NY day and thought "hey, lets run" And on when I'm half way round...maybe the "feel good" factor is half placebo???? I'll take that though! More placebo please!
And - I'm a rubbish example of seeing the obvious signs of steroid use - I lift to stay away from looking like the average runner in my sport of OCR racing. My training is RUBBISH for OCR and lifting but cool for me. For example, I'm just back from doing legs. After I smoked them on deads I finished with 2k on the treadmill at 3.45 p/km pace - thats not a good way to train legs for size and big dead lifts are pretty useless for OCR. But it lets me get my big lifts in and have my legs push through some serious pain. When I'm 20k into a race going up a mountain with a sand bag on my back.....it helps. Other than that - it's daft.
MC Bodge said:
One of the issues is that, for many, it appears to be all about "the look". For me, being healthy, usefully strong, mobile, capable, able to repaond to situations and being able to perform well at the sort of activities I enjoy is what is important. You become what you train for. As it happens, I am in far better all-round condition than most men of my age (not as muscular or strong as some on here, but that is not my aim), but that is a consequence of a lot of training and considering what I eat and drink.
If you don't enjoy the training or the activities you are doing then there can be little satisfaction in training and living healthily.
It is unrealistic to expect to suddenly become a heavily-muscled man with almost no body fat (or fluid!) and a good looking face in a matter of months (or ever, for most) , especially not without a lot of training, good genetics, pharmaceutical assistance and photo filtering/airbrushing.
It's quite possible to be both, but as you alluded to it's where your priorities lay which is of most importance.If you don't enjoy the training or the activities you are doing then there can be little satisfaction in training and living healthily.
It is unrealistic to expect to suddenly become a heavily-muscled man with almost no body fat (or fluid!) and a good looking face in a matter of months (or ever, for most) , especially not without a lot of training, good genetics, pharmaceutical assistance and photo filtering/airbrushing.
Tiggsy said:
Combo of juicing, genetics, and hard work, probably 
Tiggsy said:
That said, I'm pretty sure the TRT helps more indirectly. It reduces my need for recovery time, up's my motivation. The very fact I ran at all was because I jumped out of bed on NY day and thought "hey, lets run" And on when I'm half way round...maybe the "feel good" factor is half placebo???? I'll take that though! More placebo please!
Without knowing the story behind TRT and how exactly it impacts you, I can't really comment. All I know is that it is a banned substance and I don't imagine they ban it just for a laugh.EPO (which is also banned) does not really make you faster, it boosts your recovery, lets you train harder and make progress that, in a word is unnatural. Same as blood transfusions in cycling - doesn't make you faster, but the recovery means you can suffer less downtime and train or race harder more frequently than someone clean. If the TRT is having the same impact on you then it is of course making you faster than you would be clean.
What you do on youtube is your own business - tell the truth if you like. Competing against people who are clean, when you have an unfair advantage is where I draw the line though. I suppose it doesn't matter if you win or not - if you come 3rd and the guy who comes 4th has missed out - is that a fair situation?
As above - hypothetically or otherwise - if you start winning races, or taking prize money/trophies for your efforts, will you be accepting them?
8Ace said:
Four Litre said:
egor110 said:
If you need glasses it's because your going to be a danger to the public without them .
Nobody's going to smash there car up because they have low testosterone , unlike being short sighted .
I can tell you for certain they will when you get low enough. I could barely function and eventually passed out at work. Was horizontal for a number of weeks until we worked out through brain scans what was wrong with me. I would say in my case it was worse than no glasses as I could barely function.Nobody's going to smash there car up because they have low testosterone , unlike being short sighted .
Since starting Tostran, I feel much better. Hormone levels back to normal, I'm more energetic and more emotionally stable. I am now able to watch Paddington 2 without blubbing at the end.
I mislaid my prescriotion a few months ago and had to go 2 weeks without it - by the end I was similar to how Four Litre says he was. Zero energy. crying for no reason. Hot flushes and absolutely miserable. In my case it was worse than ever because due to the fact I'd been using the replacement, my body didn't need to work to produce it so I had virtually no natural T at all.
I've no doubt that TRT is abused, but it's a lifesaver if you really need it.
As mentioned before, I dread to think how many guys have been labelled with having ME and sent home, my doc was going down that route with me. Had I not thought of doing the hormone tests I would of lost everything as I couldn't continue working it was that bad.
As you can see on here there are people who don't understand the impact of not having it and just think people are doing it for cosmetic reasons only (of course there are some). There's a lot of education required in this matter before it gets the acknowledgement it needs.
TheJimi said:
Tiggsy said:
I have a little (and I mean LITTLE) youtube channel that I occasional put something on that relates to my fitness regime. The other day I had a comment from someone in relation to an ultra marathon I'd run which was basically saying....you do that at 220lbs + you must be on gear. I laughed it off as I don't look remotely big but...as my endurance times get better, I came 3rd in a 10 mile trail run the other day, I am finishing with people much smaller than me. And I'm on TRT - so a grey area. With a couple of thousand subs (tiny) I pondered what my response would be if asked outright - I don't want to dilute my message which is "at any age, you can be better than most with some effort" but wouldn't want to outright lie. Anyway, for me, with my dinky little hobby channel it's neither here nor there really.
Just tell the truth – be honest about it. However you slice it, the TRT you’re on DOES have a positive effect on your performance. You said yourself that you’ve gone from significantly below where you should be, to slightly above.Combined with a solid training ethos and good nutrition, that IS going to be an advantage.
No amount of cerebral gymnastics will get away from that.
This is what I’m talking about when I earlier mentioned lack of transparency. If all other factors are bang on the money, even a small test boost is going to be a significant factor in size / strength / speed / whatever – and the level of significance rises again with the use of the serious stuff like tren.
So many of these people, even you, to an extent, are marketing themselves yet are totally leaving out a highly crucial component of their performance or physique.
It’s a bit like someone talking about the creation of a 1200bhp GTR, but not mentioning anything about the turbos & the mapping. At all. Then anytime someone asks what turbos (gear) they’re running, the question is completely ignored.
It becomes a ridiculous elephant in the room.
As I say, I’m cool with folk taking whatever they want, and having just turned 40, I’m starting to give consideration myself (tho poss in a few years yet) so I don’t have an axe to grind on the idea of using gear in isolation.
For instance I could never go to the gym for 2 days after going for 1 hour. I was that shattered, therefore never made any gains and had people asking me if I was ok as I looked grey!!! Now I go ever other day and feel good afterwards, not like dying!!
I think its now just an even platform, whereas before it was like dragging an anchor everywhere I went.
Parsnip said:
As above - hypothetically or otherwise - if you start winning races, or taking prize money/trophies for your efforts, will you be accepting them?
Good question - right now I'm miles from that. I run in OCR races in my age group heats and my target (which took me all last year to start hitting) was to finish in the top half. Miles off a podium. There is no amount of drugs in the world that will make me, at 6ft6 and 225lbs, run an OCR race through the mountains over 3 hours and beat a 140lb elite runner who does 35m 10k's - and my sport is full of them. I'm an oddity.....it's like moaning that the black guy who swam in the Olympics and almost drown himself is cheating if he had super aerodynamic trunks on!I'm just operating at a fun level where these things don't matter. If I take 7th in a park run (way off the winners) does the guy in 8th care I'm on TRT??
Likewise I have a canicross race on Sunday - me and the dog have taken a 3rd and 2nd recently....we are 1 person having flu away from a prize! I think 1st prize was a £3 voucher for dog biscuits!
So....canicross/fun run...if by some miracle I won (I'd need a lOT of people to get flu) yes - I'll take it. OCR...it's a bigger deal with championship qualification etc...I'd have to think on that (still never gonna happen)
If it was a sport with direct links to the benefits TRT gives...different story. But if me and my jack russel crush you in a trail race.....tough luck
Sound fair? Serious question...I'm all ears if I'm wrong on the morals of this.
Tiggsy said:
At least when I was young 13/14 (even before I twigged Arnold was using gear) I never really saw him as an actual viable body to achieve - BB where superhuman, even if I didn't know why or how.
Guys like English today make kids think they CAN look like that - and the ONLY two paths are drug ABUSE or failure.
I am not against social media really but one consequence of it is that you can have a constant feed of people whose physique is probably not obtainable for you anyway, but almost certainly not without the help of drugs.Guys like English today make kids think they CAN look like that - and the ONLY two paths are drug ABUSE or failure.
One of the things I like about calisthenics is that the jacked youtubers generally don't get much attention from that community, and most of the guys are my kind of size and build so I feel like I get a more even impression of what is possible.
Tiggsy said:
Four Litre said:
I dread to think how many guys have been labelled with having ME and sent home.
I still have the pack of pills my GP gave me for my "depression" a couple of years ago that I never took as I was sure there was something else going on with me. I had to pay privately to get the tests done, once confirmed I was referred to an endocrinologist.
Tiggsy said:
popeyewhite said:
little reward other than psychological.
How does that sit with people who take PEDS to shortcut their progress? More or less commitment - could be argued either way.
The problem is - psychological reward is not little. It's MASSIVE! Your brain runs the show...if it's motivated to act in a way that isn't to your long term health....you have little say in the matter!How does that sit with people who take PEDS to shortcut their progress? More or less commitment - could be argued either way.
PEDS to shortcut performance....we can't ignore the huge difference between true TRT use and running gear. At the top end you are cheating in a sport, depriving others of success, wrecking your health.....at the other end, you hurt no one, feel better* and have as many health improvements as you do downsides. You can't answer your question without narrowing down the PED user we are discussing.
- I know it's easy to think TRT users spend all day worrying about their triceps insertions and whether the quad development is overpowering their hammys.......but I'm on a few TRT forums and the majority of people who start TRT are in a bad place on day 1. They aren't starting a life long, expensive, routine of injecting themselves every day to look hench! They are, literally sometimes, at the end of the line. If a small percent go on to feel great and end up ahead of the norm, that doesn't detract from their starting place. Had I not been unwell I would NEVER have done TRT in a million years!
I started the following thread and you got involved along with many other contributors - the two quotes below are from said thread and are directly opposite to what you are saying in this thread.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Tiggsy said:
Interested.....my last T test was 10.7 (done by medichecks as part of a 6 monthly blood work I get done for fun)
I'm nearly 46 and (for the first time ever) I've found the results of training have been slow this year. I jacked up my diet and weight training and (while I have had good improvements in fitness) my BF drop has not left me as lean as I'd expect (around 14%) and my muscle mass has suffered more than normal while I cut weight. I really simple terms.....I just feel older than I used to!
So...VERY far from someone who is "unwell" but a boost would be nice!
Going private, how simple (and useful) is it to get on T with results on the border line? And is there a long term issue with doing it for (say) 10 years and then coming off.......lets say I go broke in 10 years and can't fund it....am I now broke and shrinking!!!!!?????
Also later in the thread...I'm nearly 46 and (for the first time ever) I've found the results of training have been slow this year. I jacked up my diet and weight training and (while I have had good improvements in fitness) my BF drop has not left me as lean as I'd expect (around 14%) and my muscle mass has suffered more than normal while I cut weight. I really simple terms.....I just feel older than I used to!
So...VERY far from someone who is "unwell" but a boost would be nice!
Going private, how simple (and useful) is it to get on T with results on the border line? And is there a long term issue with doing it for (say) 10 years and then coming off.......lets say I go broke in 10 years and can't fund it....am I now broke and shrinking!!!!!?????
Tiggsy said:
272BHP said:
Tiggsy said:
But from what people have said - going private offers the better results?
Of course, they can offer treatment tailored to you, you just have to pay for it. I will have to ask again but I am sure that the figure mentioned was in the 100 a month range which seems to align with what four litre mentioned above. I know 8 friends on TRT, 4 started with the NHS, only one of them is still with them. It does seem a big commitment though and most of them seem to be forever tweaking their protocols - funnily enough, they all seem to enjoy that part of it.It can make a massive difference though, one guy was jobless and nearly suicidal, now on a 6 figure salary and has turned every aspect of his life around in a little over 2 years.
Let's be honest and summarise - you've trained all your life, had results and now you are ageing and things are slowing down you are doing whatever you can ithin reason to counteract it.
That's totally fine but please don't chat s
t about having to take it because you were unwell.
My issue with social media users was when their artificial physic, that’s impossible to achieve naturally, is used to generate income while lying about how they do it.
I look no different on the outside to when I wasn’t taking TRT and make no money, attract no subs, because of how I look anyway.
I’m all for exploring my own inner conflicts on the issue....but unsure what I do is in the same ball park as what they do!
I look no different on the outside to when I wasn’t taking TRT and make no money, attract no subs, because of how I look anyway.
I’m all for exploring my own inner conflicts on the issue....but unsure what I do is in the same ball park as what they do!
And my initial interest in TRT was 100% sparked from training. It wasn’t till I sat with a dr and went over my results that he started to ask questions about other aspects of my health that made me wonder if there was a link. I was pretty sceptical of the supposed benifts to motivation, mood, etc......but it was here I noticed the change first. Very cool side effect. Is it right to call depressive symptoms “unwell” .....maybe not. But I’m glad they went all the same.
lord trumpton said:
Tiggsy said:
popeyewhite said:
little reward other than psychological.
How does that sit with people who take PEDS to shortcut their progress? More or less commitment - could be argued either way.
The problem is - psychological reward is not little. It's MASSIVE! Your brain runs the show...if it's motivated to act in a way that isn't to your long term health....you have little say in the matter!How does that sit with people who take PEDS to shortcut their progress? More or less commitment - could be argued either way.
PEDS to shortcut performance....we can't ignore the huge difference between true TRT use and running gear. At the top end you are cheating in a sport, depriving others of success, wrecking your health.....at the other end, you hurt no one, feel better* and have as many health improvements as you do downsides. You can't answer your question without narrowing down the PED user we are discussing.
- I know it's easy to think TRT users spend all day worrying about their triceps insertions and whether the quad development is overpowering their hammys.......but I'm on a few TRT forums and the majority of people who start TRT are in a bad place on day 1. They aren't starting a life long, expensive, routine of injecting themselves every day to look hench! They are, literally sometimes, at the end of the line. If a small percent go on to feel great and end up ahead of the norm, that doesn't detract from their starting place. Had I not been unwell I would NEVER have done TRT in a million years!
I started the following thread and you got involved along with many other contributors - the two quotes below are from said thread and are directly opposite to what you are saying in this thread.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Tiggsy said:
Interested.....my last T test was 10.7 (done by medichecks as part of a 6 monthly blood work I get done for fun)
I'm nearly 46 and (for the first time ever) I've found the results of training have been slow this year. I jacked up my diet and weight training and (while I have had good improvements in fitness) my BF drop has not left me as lean as I'd expect (around 14%) and my muscle mass has suffered more than normal while I cut weight. I really simple terms.....I just feel older than I used to!
So...VERY far from someone who is "unwell" but a boost would be nice!
Going private, how simple (and useful) is it to get on T with results on the border line? And is there a long term issue with doing it for (say) 10 years and then coming off.......lets say I go broke in 10 years and can't fund it....am I now broke and shrinking!!!!!?????
Also later in the thread...I'm nearly 46 and (for the first time ever) I've found the results of training have been slow this year. I jacked up my diet and weight training and (while I have had good improvements in fitness) my BF drop has not left me as lean as I'd expect (around 14%) and my muscle mass has suffered more than normal while I cut weight. I really simple terms.....I just feel older than I used to!
So...VERY far from someone who is "unwell" but a boost would be nice!
Going private, how simple (and useful) is it to get on T with results on the border line? And is there a long term issue with doing it for (say) 10 years and then coming off.......lets say I go broke in 10 years and can't fund it....am I now broke and shrinking!!!!!?????
Tiggsy said:
272BHP said:
Tiggsy said:
But from what people have said - going private offers the better results?
Of course, they can offer treatment tailored to you, you just have to pay for it. I will have to ask again but I am sure that the figure mentioned was in the 100 a month range which seems to align with what four litre mentioned above. I know 8 friends on TRT, 4 started with the NHS, only one of them is still with them. It does seem a big commitment though and most of them seem to be forever tweaking their protocols - funnily enough, they all seem to enjoy that part of it.It can make a massive difference though, one guy was jobless and nearly suicidal, now on a 6 figure salary and has turned every aspect of his life around in a little over 2 years.
Let's be honest and summarise - you've trained all your life, had results and now you are ageing and things are slowing down you are doing whatever you can ithin reason to counteract it.
That's totally fine but please don't chat s
t about having to take it because you were unwell.There does seem to be a bit of inconsistency about the motivation for doing so and a certain amount of apparent denial too....
Tiggsy said:
I suppose my point was (having lived with an addict) they found getting to the point of addiction easy because socially it was fine to over drink - once there, no amount of telling them the obvious would bring them back. The compulsion to drink (or eat) is overwhelming once stuck in that place.
Yes, but addiction is the symptom which masks the underlying cause of the need to drink/take drugs/abuse steroids/overtrain.
that thurston character is obviously taking stuff up the wazoo.
THis bloke is interesting, he chats about cycles and stuff and does videos on people (who...yawn...claim natural but are most likely not)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoR7CHkMETs3ByOv7...
THis bloke is interesting, he chats about cycles and stuff and does videos on people (who...yawn...claim natural but are most likely not)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoR7CHkMETs3ByOv7...
MC Bodge said:
I too was wondering why he'd started the thread given that he is doing something similar himself.
There does seem to be a bit of inconsistency about the motivation for doing so and a certain amount of apparent denial too....
It's like driving isn't it? Anyone who is going slower than you is an idiot and any one who is going faster is a risk taking moron.There does seem to be a bit of inconsistency about the motivation for doing so and a certain amount of apparent denial too....
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