Vaccine side effects

[Northernboy]

Boringvolvodriver said:

Have you seen what they are saying in America about the Delta variant?

There are three hundred million people there, saying many things. What point are you trying to make?

[bodhi]

Northernboy said:

Boringvolvodriver said:

Have you seen what they are saying in America about the Delta variant?

There are three hundred million people there, saying many things. What point are you trying to make?

I believe BVD will be referring to the recent statement by the CDC, that vaccinated people are seeing similar viral loads as the unvaccinated, so everyone has to mask up again. Massive problem with it however, it was based upon an Indian study that a) failed peer review, b) was using a vaccine that isn't even available in the US and c) used modelling rather than observational data.

Never thought I'd see the CDC go full anti-vaxx just because they wanted people to wear bit of old underpants on their faces, but there you go.

Good break down on it on the Twitter thread below, from a Senior Scientist at Moderna:

https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/14204432...

She also did a good thread on the whole "vaccines create super variants" meme that keeps appearing as well if anyone wants a look:

https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/14121773...

[paulguitar]

I don't wish to derail the thread, but on the subject of masks, is it generally accepted now that they do indeed help, or is there legitimate doubt about this? I've always felt as if I could find convincing contradictory arguments on this, taking two totally different sides!

[Evanivitch]

bodhi said:

I believe BVD will be referring to the recent statement by the CDC, that vaccinated people are seeing similar viral loads as the unvaccinated, so everyone has to mask up again. Massive problem with it however, it was based upon an Indian study that a) failed peer review, b) was using a vaccine that isn't even available in the US and c) used modelling rather than observational data.

Never thought I'd see the CDC go full anti-vaxx just because they wanted people to wear bit of old underpants on their faces, but there you go.

Good break down on it on the Twitter thread below, from a Senior Scientist at Moderna:

https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/14204432...

She also did a good thread on the whole "vaccines create super variants" meme that keeps appearing as well if anyone wants a look:

https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/14121773...

That's not the position currently on the CDC website.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/...

"A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus."

[popeyewhite]

paulguitar said:

I don't wish to derail the thread, but on the subject of masks, is it generally accepted now that they do indeed help, or is there legitimate doubt about this? I've always felt as if I could find convincing contradictory arguments on this, taking two totally different sides!

I think there has always been doubt about exactly how much they protect the wearer. It does seem however they are efficacious in decreasing the spread of infectious airborne droplets.

[bodhi]

Evanivitch said:

That's not the position currently on the CDC website.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/...

"A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus."

Guess they haven't updated the website yet then.

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1421164155768279042...

[APontus]

Evanivitch said:

That's not the position currently on the CDC website.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/...

"A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus."

Have a read of this (released today)...

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.ht...

[bodhi]

paulguitar said:

I don't wish to derail the thread, but on the subject of masks, is it generally accepted now that they do indeed help, or is there legitimate doubt about this? I've always felt as if I could find convincing contradictory arguments on this, taking two totally different sides!

Properly fitted on a crash test dummy in the lab they appear to offer a mild reduction in transmission, in the real world the data is far from convincing either way. Looking strongly like a placebo, given the lack of effect on epidemic curves anywhere they've been mandated.

[Northernboy]

bodhi said:

I believe BVD will be referring to the recent statement by the CDC, that vaccinated people are seeing similar viral loads as the unvaccinated,

Do you have a link to the statement? It would seem incredible if true.

[Northernboy]

bodhi said:

Evanivitch said:

That's not the position currently on the CDC website.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/...

"A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus."

Guess they haven't updated the website yet then.

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1421164155768279042...

That’s not a statement by the CDC.

[Northernboy]

APontus said:

ave a read of this (released today)...

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.ht...

It doesn’t back up the claim, and explicitly states;

“ Although the assay used in this investigation was not validated to provide quantitative results…”

But I can see that the anti-vaccine crowd either aren’t able to understand the report or choose to misrepresent it.

I do wonder if any if you have a scientific background, as it seems unlikely.

[APontus]

Northernboy said:

It doesn’t back up the claim, and explicitly states;

“ Although the assay used in this investigation was not validated to provide quantitative results…”

But I can see that the anti-vaccine crowd either aren’t able to understand the report or choose to misrepresent it.

I do wonder if any if you have a scientific background, as it seems unlikely.

If you want to ignore what is happening it's entirely up to you. It won't affect my life.

The CDC and others now fully realise the vaccines don't prevent transmission of Delta. That is why the advice to citizens has changed (mask up, even if vaccinated). This is possibly just the start.

This news is appearing in the mainstream press and across the political divide.

I understand the temptation to resist based on ideological grounds; "if the anti vaxxers agree with it, I must disagree with it". This won't change what's happening.

This is not me saying "don't get vaccinated", as it's clear vaccination is (currently) preventing serious illness and death in the vulnerable. It's me saying the vaccinations might be in the process of encouraging variants and vaccine escape. The evidence from Israel, UK and US suggests as much. That means the approach we've taken so far in 2021 might need to be re-evaluated.

[bodhi]

Northernboy said:

That’s not a statement by the CDC.

It's a quote from their Director reported in the press, so you can see where the overall confusion comes from. They've clarified it today, but an overall piss poor bit of communication, based on a very bad study.

[isaldiri]

paulguitar said:

I don't wish to derail the thread, but on the subject of masks, is it generally accepted now that they do indeed help, or is there legitimate doubt about this? I've always felt as if I could find convincing contradictory arguments on this, taking two totally different sides!

Well, generally accepted that they do help yes. That belief however has not been based on any even reasonably strong evidence anywhere of real world usage. The quoted studies are lab based or observational with lots of other confounding variables - no one anywhere seems to have been interested in figuring how to do a proper RCT (which to be fair wouldn't be easy) to test whether said intervention has had any use at all.

It was simply recommended on the premise of being 'precautionary' based on weak evidence (as acknowledged in various sage/who etc papers) in an emergency but for all manner of reasons no one afterwards seemed motivated to continue to seek the data that would justify it's continuation.

[anonymous-user]

popeyewhite said:

paulguitar said:

I don't wish to derail the thread, but on the subject of masks, is it generally accepted now that they do indeed help, or is there legitimate doubt about this? I've always felt as if I could find convincing contradictory arguments on this, taking two totally different sides!

I think there has always been doubt about exactly how much they protect the wearer. It does seem however they are efficacious in decreasing the spread of infectious airborne droplets.

Have there not been studies suggesting that mask wearing causes harm rather than helping?

[glazbagun]

garyhun said:

popeyewhite said:

paulguitar said:

I don't wish to derail the thread, but on the subject of masks, is it generally accepted now that they do indeed help, or is there legitimate doubt about this? I've always felt as if I could find convincing contradictory arguments on this, taking two totally different sides!

I think there has always been doubt about exactly how much they protect the wearer. It does seem however they are efficacious in decreasing the spread of infectious airborne droplets.

Have there not been studies suggesting that mask wearing causes harm rather than helping?

Only study I remember recently (not yet peer reviewed) was on the upgraded PPE correlating with reduced patient- health worker transmition:

https://www.authorea.com/users/421653/articles/527...

Having typed that I'm now guilty of what I was moaning about earlier as wearing a mask isn't a covid symptom.

[Evanivitch]

APontus said:

The CDC and others now fully realise the vaccines don't prevent transmission of Delta. That is why the advice to citizens has changed (mask up, even if vaccinated). This is possibly just the start.

The CDC have never, ever said that vaccines prevent transmission of any CV19 variant.

So why are you misrepresenting them, repeatedly?

[RipTrip1]

garyhun said:

Have there not been studies suggesting that mask wearing causes harm rather than helping?

They cause discomfort and a slight restriction in breathing. They absolutely suck to wear on a hot day indoors. They are also manufacturered in VERY unsanitary conditions it's quite disgusting if you look into it

[APontus]

Evanivitch said:

The CDC have never, ever said that vaccines prevent transmission of any CV19 variant.

So why are you misrepresenting them, repeatedly?

Instead of attacking me, ask yourself this; have the public had the impression from messaging that the vaccines would prevent transmission/end the virus, and is that messaging now proving to be incorrect.

There is far too much partisan nonsense.

[Evanivitch]

APontus said:

Evanivitch said:

The CDC have never, ever said that vaccines prevent transmission of any CV19 variant.

So why are you misrepresenting them, repeatedly?

Instead of attacking me, ask yourself this; have the public had the impression from messaging that the vaccines would prevent transmission/end the virus, and is that messaging now proving to be incorrect.

There is far too much partisan nonsense.

Attacking you? You're deliberately and repeatedly posting outright lies, it's not an attack to point that out.

You can comment on public perception if you want to reference it, or is it just your perception?