Does anyone know an Anti Covid vaxxer?

[TwigtheWonderkid]

ben5575 said:

But even Doris in Greggs knows that we haven't invented time travel yet so it is impossible to have conducted long term studies into the vaccines.

But does Doris understand that we aren't doing long term studies into any vaccine. If a vaccine takes 15 years to develop, it's not because we're waiting to see what happens to people who trialled it 14 years ago. If you die 2 years after having the vaccine trial, the vaccine firm will never even know about it. And you won't have died from the vaccine.

We've had vaccines for over 300 years, and we know they don't give long term issues, just short term issues.

[anonymous-user]

I can accept that vaccine tech is long established and fairly sound, and that a lot of the process of getting drugs to market is just regulatory box-ticking and admin.

But weighing up the risks / rewards, I'm not yet convinced there is any benefit to me in getting the vaccine right now.

• Risk of me getting COVID - fairly low
• Risk of me dying from COVID - almost zero
• Risk of me getting long COVID - almost zero (it's probably just the new ME / fibromyalgia - the shirker's way of getting onto long-term benefits)

• Benefit of vaccine - risk of COVID death goes down from nearly zero to a bit closer to zero
• Risk of vaccine - very low - probably almost zero - but a good chance I'll get a sore arm and aches and pains that I'd rather avoid

Not much in it either way, I suppose. Much the same as the flu vaccine. And I never bothered getting that for similar reasons to the above.

The clincher for me is that if it does turn out to be the new thalidomide (or one of 100s of other pharma fk-ups), then I can't sue the manufacturers because they have been given immunity. I know that should be very unlikely, but why do that if it's not dodgy?

Of course, there will likely be serious non-medical downsides to not getting vaccinated. Anything from being a bit of a social pariah to - you know - Godwin #8 or whatever I'm up to. I'll just have to weigh up if my principles are worth sticking to in the face of the pitchfork wielding hordes, the fear of the late night knock on the door, or my wife insisting we go on holiday.

[ben5575]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

ben5575 said:

But even Doris in Greggs knows that we haven't invented time travel yet so it is impossible to have conducted long term studies into the vaccines.

But does Doris understand that we aren't doing long term studies into any vaccine. If a vaccine takes 15 years to develop, it's not because we're waiting to see what happens to people who trialled it 14 years ago. If you die 2 years after having the vaccine trial, the vaccine firm will never even know about it. And you won't have died from the vaccine.

We've had vaccines for over 300 years, and we know they don't give long term issues, just short term issues.

I think Doris probably understands that you're not testing for long term side effects from the vaccine during that 15 years of development, but maybe thinks that if a new vaccine is released she'd like to wait for 5 or 10 years to see how many, if any of course, suffer side effects from it.

That makes sense to Doris, particularly if Doris is below 30/40/50 and doesn't think that covid is a particular risk to her. But she does know that the vaccines have been developed in super quick time and that this is very unusual. And very unusual is scary to her.

Now if Doris understood because it had been explained to her that the new vaccines are based on existing well establish vaccines and/or could be assured that the process they've been through means that the risks are no higher than any of the injections she had at school, she may change her mind and have the jab.

To be clear I am talking about Doris, I'm having the jab

[Prof Prolapse]

Doris can fk off and read a fking book before arguing with her doctor then can't she?

[otolith]

I must admit, I do find it odd that people are more afraid of the unknown long term effect of having a bit of Covid-19 spike protein created in their body by a controlled and well understood mechanism than they are of a rather nasty virus which has been known to kill people spending a week doing the same thing and god knows what else at the same time.

[anonymous-user]

monkfish1 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

V6 Pushfit said:

What I find odd is Israel, they have now jabbed 95% of the population but are still getting 2,000+ cases a day,

How many of them are actually ill? As opposed to just a bit unwell.

Exactly. Who cares how many cases there are if no one is ill?

The idea of the vaccine is not only does it protect and so not give a positive test, it also reduces transmission - and therefore the case numbers drop.

[Wombat3]

Difficult said:

I can accept that vaccine tech is long established and fairly sound, and that a lot of the process of getting drugs to market is just regulatory box-ticking and admin.

But weighing up the risks / rewards, I'm not yet convinced there is any benefit to me in getting the vaccine right now.

• Risk of me getting COVID - fairly low
• Risk of me dying from COVID - almost zero
• Risk of me getting long COVID - almost zero (it's probably just the new ME / fibromyalgia - the shirker's way of getting onto long-term benefits)

• Benefit of vaccine - risk of COVID death goes down from nearly zero to a bit closer to zero
• Risk of vaccine - very low - probably almost zero - but a good chance I'll get a sore arm and aches and pains that I'd rather avoid

Not much in it either way, I suppose. Much the same as the flu vaccine. And I never bothered getting that for similar reasons to the above.

The clincher for me is that if it does turn out to be the new thalidomide (or one of 100s of other pharma fk-ups), then I can't sue the manufacturers because they have been given immunity. I know that should be very unlikely, but why do that if it's not dodgy?

Of course, there will likely be serious non-medical downsides to not getting vaccinated. Anything from being a bit of a social pariah to - you know - Godwin #8 or whatever I'm up to. I'll just have to weigh up if my principles are worth sticking to in the face of the pitchfork wielding hordes, the fear of the late night knock on the door, or my wife insisting we go on holiday.

Risk of you getting Covid is only lowered because everyone else is getting vaccinated.
Risk of you catching Covid and spreading it about (whether you know you have it or not) : Gets higher with everyone that thinks like that.

Your "clincher" is also bks I'm afraid. This is not some mad chemical compound, its a vaccine designed to do nothing more than to trigger your immune system into developing anti-bodies & T Cells to combat a virus - if you should happen to be unlucky enough to catch it from some kind individual that also refused to protect themselves and others.

It might also prevent you from passing it on to someone who has either not built immunity or who's immunity has waned, or who may have some kind of immuno-defficiency,

Edited by Wombat3 on Monday 1st March 18:21

[Don1]

Thanks Prof and Wombat for your clear explanations.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Well 20m now vaccinated, and no reports of vaccine related deaths or side effects beyond the predicted possible sore arm and a possible day or two of feeling unwell. Meanwhile, deaths in the over 80s are falling rapidly and all the numbers are moving downward quickly.

But I guess the anti vaxxers don't want the debate clouded by actual evidence.

[FlabbyMidgets]

Just my tuppence.

I would probably choose not to have the vaccine if I was offered it any time soon. For reference I'm 25, finished uni, working and studying for a masters. My reasons being:

1) Young with no other conditions. I have a near zero chance of dying from covid or any serious effects from it.

2) Vaccine on emergency approval for the time being. Til 2022/23 I believe

3) I have more worry of a Pandemrix like situation

4) I have a problem with the coercion and reporting of the whole situation. I don't want to be forced into it like seen in Israel

However, if there is considerable conclusive evidence that the vaccine would have a large impact on transmission I may reconsider my position

[anonymous-user]

^ Israel is very odd. Their figures here would be just shy of 60m vaccinated and then getting 28,000 cases.

[Wombat3]

FlabbyMidgets said:

1) Young with no other conditions. I have a near zero chance of dying from covid or any serious effects from it.

That won't stop you catching it or passing it on, knowingly or otherwise to someone with possibly a weakened immune system.

The more people that think like that the longer levels of it in the community will stay higher than they need to be and the more risk of a mutation.

FlabbyMidgets said:

2) Vaccine on emergency approval for the time being. Til 2022/23 I believe

Very red herring with the size of the data samples now available

FlabbyMidgets said:

3) I have more worry of a Pandemrix like situation

Different type of Vaccine (see "Immonological adjuvants"). See also lack of side effects for the Covid vaccines in what are now huge sample sizes.

FlabbyMidgets said:

4) I have a problem with the coercion and reporting of the whole situation. I don't want to be forced into it like seen in Israel

Its not coercion, its data & science. The effects & impacts of Covid and in turn the vaccines are well understood and there is masses of data in the public domain explaining both. If you are still unhappy about it then suggest discuss your concerns with your doctor.

FlabbyMidgets said:

However, if there is considerable conclusive evidence that the vaccine would have a large impact on transmission I may reconsider my position

The evidence is everywhere if you want to read it. There is also basically no evidence of any downsides.

[Wombat3]

monkfish1 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

V6 Pushfit said:

What I find odd is Israel, they have now jabbed 95% of the population but are still getting 2,000+ cases a day,

How many of them are actually ill? As opposed to just a bit unwell.

Exactly. Who cares how many cases there are if no one is ill?

Part of that is because of time taken to build immunity after the 1st dose. It takes 2 weeks for anything to really show & between 3 & 4 weeks for it really to get going.

If people don't respect that & assume that once they have had a jab they are safe (and behave accordingly) then you will still see some cases. All the figures for Israel are continuing to trend in the right direction though. Also I think the instances of serious illness & death amongst those who are 2 weeks past a vaccine is now close to nil.

[J4CKO]

Don1 said:

Prof Prolapse said:

This isn't true.

You're confusing the submission for a marketing authorisation with clinical testing. The later can take months to years, the former just months.

All the MHRA did was agree to work with pharma companies and carry out a rolling review, and prioritised the work due to the national urgency. This is all public knowledge.

It's not strange or untoward in the slightest. Our regulators are known to be very innovative. They're often well respected for that reason.

So you're saying it's normal for a brand new drug to to through the approvals process in a few months?

Edit, sorry, re-reading that made it sound confrontational- it isn't. An honest question.

Edited by Don1 on Monday 1st March 11:06

Maybe we could have waited the normal 5 to 10 years ?

My understanding is RNA vaccines were almost at the stage where they were to be passed and then Covid came along an used it as a method for producing the vaccine for it.

I am not exactly seeing where the problem is having it so you can travel, many destinations require vaccinations already.

Its not tested, well 20 million elderly and Vulnerable folk have had it and they arent dropping like flies, my boss had his and he had a day of as he felt so rough after it but wont stop me having it, everyone else I know has been fine.



Its a bit of a Dilemma, a choice where neither option is particularly good,

New Vaccine or no Vaccine and potential restrictions and/or more likelyhood of getting a rather unpleasant virus which probably wont kill you but migth make you feel st and kill your granny.

We don't like those kinds of choices, we want a nice choice where there is no downside, and we get a cake, like Alan Partridge,

"That was a negative and right now I need two positives. You know, one to cancel out the negative and another one just so I can have a positive"


Also, some folk have to be contrarian, I could predict on Facebook who would be hooting like enraged chimps at the thought of being told, I mean how dare they that they should have a vaccine. Well, if the govt had said that its too expensive and you need to take your chances it would have been "Evil Tories, I want my Vaccine now !!!"

I really do think our government are just making the best of a st situation, making some miss steps as they go. I love all the conspiracy that its a massive plan to enslave us because I am sure the politicians don't have friends and families, plus the same folk that daily are accused of incompetence could mastermind all this and coordinate it globally, yeah right.

I do believe it should be a choice, but not based on Facebook, I corrected someone who was merrily posting that the Nurse in the US that passed out when she had her jab had died, just posting that, dropping it into the conversation when a quick Google confirmed she was alive and well, no reaction other than her normal fainting at the sight of a hypodermic syringe.

Some like to have something to fight against, something to be bothered about, not sure why BAME folk are so resistant to the Vaccine, seems a bit daft when Covid seems to affect them disproportionately, sure they have their reasons, hopefully not from social media.

I don't want the Vaccine but I feel I should do, could quite cheerfully never have another needle shoved in my arm but its not a huge imposition, I dont think my DNA will change as that has been proven to be bks and who says my DNA is any good as it is ? I have daft hair and underspecced ankles. I am thinking that if its going to do anything it will be in the first hours or days after having it, not in 10 years or 20 years, will I get to seventy and wake up one morning with massive tits ? or will it just slosh round doing its thing will all the other vaccines I have had in the last fifty years ?


And then there is the risk, like the bloke on FaceBook saying he wouldn't go on a 737 Max but his profile picture was one of him astride some massive sports bike, 1 litre or bigger, rides a massively fast motorcycle knowing all the risks, wont go on a plane, now I am not sure if Boeing have 100 percent fixed it but will give it the nod over Steve on his crotch rocket in the arriving alive stakes.

Same folk going on about the virus, conspiracy theories and not having the vaccine, same bloke likes a beer, dresses it up as being an enthusiast, he is grossly overweight but the vaccine is seemingly a much bigger risk, but you cant say "You are a fat pisshead, thats way more risky" as it comes off a bit rude.

I just want to get out of this, if this is what it takes then so be it,

Only hindsight will tell, maybe when I am on that train to the Wolverhampton re-education camp I will think Difficult was right...

[Prof Prolapse]

J4CKO said:

Maybe we could have waited the normal 5 to 10 years ?

I'm not going around in circles, if you're going to quote me, at least read what I said in that quote.

It does not take 5-10 years for approval, especially in vaccines, and this is from someone who has done it for living for over a decade. If it did how the hell would you get an annual flu jab?

Edited by Prof Prolapse on Tuesday 2nd March 09:37

[FlabbyMidgets]

Wombat3 said:

FlabbyMidgets said:

1) Young with no other conditions. I have a near zero chance of dying from covid or any serious effects from it.

That won't stop you catching it or passing it on, knowingly or otherwise to someone with possibly a weakened immune system.

The more people that think like that the longer levels of it in the community will stay higher than they need to be and the more risk of a mutation.

FlabbyMidgets said:

2) Vaccine on emergency approval for the time being. Til 2022/23 I believe

Very red herring with the size of the data samples now available

FlabbyMidgets said:

3) I have more worry of a Pandemrix like situation

Different type of Vaccine (see "Immonological adjuvants"). See also lack of side effects for the Covid vaccines in what are now huge sample sizes.

FlabbyMidgets said:

4) I have a problem with the coercion and reporting of the whole situation. I don't want to be forced into it like seen in Israel

Its not coercion, its data & science. The effects & impacts of Covid and in turn the vaccines are well understood and there is masses of data in the public domain explaining both. If you are still unhappy about it then suggest discuss your concerns with your doctor.

FlabbyMidgets said:

However, if there is considerable conclusive evidence that the vaccine would have a large impact on transmission I may reconsider my position

The evidence is everywhere if you want to read it. There is also basically no evidence of any downsides.

Thanks for the reply, you raise some good points. I've got a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1) Understood, but the vulnerable are mostly vaccinated and AFAIK even having the vaccine doesn't stop you getting it or passing it on?

2) I understand sample size is massive. Long term effects obviously cannot be understood and I have little faith in our media or government to convey information lately.
That being said if there were any severe side effects I'm sure we would have heard by now. I know from experience that approvals etc are mostly paper work exercises but it does make me hesitant.

3) Thanks, I'll take a look at this

4) I have serious problems with how this situation has been reported by the media and the government. It has been deceptive and seemingly all for the sake of increasing compliance. The thought of a domestic vaccine passport puts my back up, as well as the veiled threat of not having access to hospitality. Israel currently has the option of not having the vaccine but having regular testing instead. A report from the times of Israel is saying how the government wishes to make testing harder to come by and more expensive. I'd say that's coercion.

I'm quite happy and don't have concerns I want to pass on to my doctor. I was giving the reasons of why I wouldn't have the vaccine if offered it today or in the near future. That may change and I feel like I'll be forced into it for work or shops etc.

[gts.981]

I’ve got my vaccine appointment this weekend.
No way I’m going for it. I don’t believe in Covid and I don’t believe in their vaccine.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

FlabbyMidgets said:

Long term effects obviously cannot be understood

They can. In 300 years of various vaccines, long term effects have never been a thing. Or if they are, no one knows about them as we don't track any vaccine for long term effects, as we're so confident they don't happen.

[FlabbyMidgets]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

They can. In 300 years of various vaccines, long term effects have never been a thing. Or if they are, no one knows about them as we don't track any vaccine for long term effects, as we're so confident they don't happen.

Understood, thanks. What about the narcolepsy as a result of pandemrix? Not being funny I'm genuinely intrigued.

[paulguitar]

gts.981 said:

I’ve got my vaccine appointment this weekend.
No way I’m going for it. I don’t believe in Covid and I don’t believe in their vaccine.