Does anyone know an Anti Covid vaxxer?
Discussion
PrinceRupert said:
Yes she has cared for many COVID patients on ventilators etc. Her reasoning is she is of child bearing age and it could be the next thalidomide. No amount of logic will persuade her this is ridiculous. She also makes the argument that if everyone else is vaccinated it doesn't matter if she is. She said she would only get it if she would otherwise be sacked.
That’s very disappointing. I’m sure you will have guided her to the various resources to show this isn’t the case. Does she have a cohort of friends with the same opinion? The reporting in the press recently regarding healthcare workers and ‘low’ vaccine uptake is potentially misleading see the link which tackles that issue. (https://twitter.com/rupert_pearse/status/1367217644710027269?s=21)
On a separate issue It would seem many non-vaxxers would be offended by separate areas for them.
What about having it the other way? Would you be offended if those who had vaccine were allowed to sit in separate areas away from those who hadn’t? I don’t mean a passport, but in commercial settings as before. If I was taking my elderly parents out to a meal I might prefer if they were seated in a vaccinated area. Or even opt to an area if you can show you have a negative test result and vaccinated.
It’s slightly off topic but it flips round the second class citizen argument to a “elitist” system.
Uggers said:
shost said:
On a separate issue It would seem many non-vaxxers would be offended by separate areas for them.
What about having it the other way? Would you be offended if those who had vaccine were allowed to sit in separate areas away from those who hadn’t? I don’t mean a passport, but in commercial settings as before. If I was taking my elderly parents out to a meal I might prefer if they were seated in a vaccinated area. Or even opt to an area if you can show you have a negative test result and vaccinated.
It’s slightly off topic but it flips round the second class citizen argument to a “elitist” system.
Don't you find the very words you are writing somewhat disturbing? Could you have imagined a year ago you proposing something like this? What about having it the other way? Would you be offended if those who had vaccine were allowed to sit in separate areas away from those who hadn’t? I don’t mean a passport, but in commercial settings as before. If I was taking my elderly parents out to a meal I might prefer if they were seated in a vaccinated area. Or even opt to an area if you can show you have a negative test result and vaccinated.
It’s slightly off topic but it flips round the second class citizen argument to a “elitist” system.
You can flip it on its head but it's segregation both ways.
First it's segregation in public settings. How do we improve on that?
We could segregate these people who either refuse the vaccine or cannot take it for medical reasons into housing estates?
So they can be amongst their own you understand? Give them their own shops, cafes etc?
How about a wall around them? Keep them together and that way the vaccinated can enjoy the public spaces without fear?
I cannot believe I'm even having to read about ideas like this.
I'm all for choice but with reason. I've already said I'm reluctant on flu vaccine, and I've not yet had it this season. But covid is another matter and I'm in full agreement with Prof on this that we need greater uptake and hope that most will take it when offered.
I probably didn't clarify my thoughts on the separate areas opt in. If COVID isn't under control and with enough uptake of vaccine, I can (unfortunately) invisage a time when if I'm with my partner in a restaurant we would be happy to sit wherever. But if I took mum out for a meal I'd ask to be in a "socially distanced area" where staff maybe still where masks and tables are further apart or guests show they are negative. I'm not talking about leper villages here. Just a way of ensuring my family and myself are safe. In the same way I wouldn't want to stand next to a smoker outdoors in a pub garden. I have every right to protect myself. Do I shield my parents or hope that society takes steps to ensure ALL are safe? Without using selfish reasons to justify it.
I stress that this thought/suggestion of segregation is for an endemic situation with low enough vaccine uptake to cause worry. But do you see what I'm getting at?
I really do hope that vaccine uptake is adequate though! So yes I can't believe I'm writing anout segregation but I'm also aware that us humans are an eclectic bunch so not entirely surprised either!
Edited by shost on Thursday 4th March 11:52
Edited by shost on Thursday 4th March 11:56
Lily the Pink said:
I don't quite get the logic of this. If you and your party have all had the vaccine, then the chance of you catching and suffering from Covid are - as I understand it - negligible. It's nothing like standing next to a smoker, where the stink and smoke are objectionable in themselves (though the chances of catching cancer from them is also negligible).
The chances are negligible to the current strain, but if prevalence is high then mutations are high then it’s anyone’s guess. And whilst stood next to a smoker for 30mins isn’t going to give me cancer or lung disease, sitting next to an unvaccinated assymptomatic young person carrying a new strain of COVID for 30 mins could potentially cause a hospital admission for a vulnerable person.
Enut said:
She is in fact a professional therapist!
Time has disproved the food shortage and Trump theories.
I have tried arguing with her but apparently the hours she spends finding out these 'facts' on the internet is worth much more than the expertise within the NHS, research and pharmaceutical companies.
Wow you have incredible patience! Is this the only subject you disagree on?Time has disproved the food shortage and Trump theories.
I have tried arguing with her but apparently the hours she spends finding out these 'facts' on the internet is worth much more than the expertise within the NHS, research and pharmaceutical companies.
Edited by Enut on Sunday 14th March 18:34
Checking back in to this thread after a few days, great to see it’s still going, and wondered what the thoughts of the Venous Thromboembolism (VTE) & the EU vs AZ debacle.
Personally I’m really really surprised by the decision for those countries to suspend vaccine rollout.
Approximately 0.00024% chance of getting a possible related non-fatal(?) VTE, lower than background risk of VTE, yet chance of overall mortality still at around 2% from COVID, and significant risk of COVID infection related severe VTE.
Utter beggars belief. I’ve always respected people’s health concerns relating to vaccine roll out, but cannot relate how governments of our neighbours, having significant daily mortality and financial lockdown related side effects, are choosing to play this one.
Prof Prolapse said:
Emmanuel Macron is an idiot and quite possibly a liar. He referred to the AZ vaccine as "quasi-ineffective" as he stopped the roll out despite no evidence. Then he reversed the decision, then it's proven to be about 81% effective in reducing hospital admissions in the over 80s. I can't find the quote, but I'm sure he even said in light of this recent decision that the French were, "following the science", even though the EMA themselves said to continue to administer the vaccine. It was an outright lie, apparently he didn't feel he looked enough of a gobs
te the first time.
What I find most frustrating is it's the same repeatedly critical thinking failure here. You see it from those who believing in god, to ghosts, and in this case believing a vaccine is dangerous. The repeated logic failure in believing that because you cannot prove something doesn't exist, that is must therefore exist.
When it's not profoundly arrogant to do so, or when showing my children the failure of this failure of thinking, I hold up and empty hand and I ask them how do I prove I don't have an apple? Children understand this, it is so obvious, that "burden of proof", falls on the person making a claim, the absence of evidence, is not, in itself, evidence of anything.
Yet here we are. People will die because our elected leaders, and adults refusing a vaccine which could save lives, do not understand that this applies equally to risks of blood clots, over 65s being dosed, pregnant women and children being vaccinated, long term health issues, and all the other bullst that will undoubtedly follow.
Without any signs of these things, we cannot prove there is no risk to any of these groups, no more than we can prove there is no apple in an empty hand.
Pathetic politicising of the vaccine, and the Oxford AZ specifically could go down as one of the biggest public health disasters of our life time. te the first time.What I find most frustrating is it's the same repeatedly critical thinking failure here. You see it from those who believing in god, to ghosts, and in this case believing a vaccine is dangerous. The repeated logic failure in believing that because you cannot prove something doesn't exist, that is must therefore exist.
When it's not profoundly arrogant to do so, or when showing my children the failure of this failure of thinking, I hold up and empty hand and I ask them how do I prove I don't have an apple? Children understand this, it is so obvious, that "burden of proof", falls on the person making a claim, the absence of evidence, is not, in itself, evidence of anything.
Yet here we are. People will die because our elected leaders, and adults refusing a vaccine which could save lives, do not understand that this applies equally to risks of blood clots, over 65s being dosed, pregnant women and children being vaccinated, long term health issues, and all the other bulls
t that will undoubtedly follow. Without any signs of these things, we cannot prove there is no risk to any of these groups, no more than we can prove there is no apple in an empty hand.
Such a shame as that euro road trip I want is looking more and more unlikely as they cock about with peoples safety
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