Does anyone know an Anti Covid vaxxer?

[Ashfordian]

Scabutz said:

otolith said:

Sahjahd said:

Of a circle of nine people I know to have been vaccinated, one wishes that she hadn't; hospitalised for three weeks at death's door, and still weak after two months.

Of a circle of 15 friends and family I can think of off the top of my head, nobody has had a severe reaction.

Anecdote != data

Here's data - more than 35 million people have had at least one jab, and we didn't have 4 million hospitalised as a result.

I saw some anti vax nutter going on about how a 32 year old healthy person had a heart attack and died 3 days after having the vaccine. But with no proof to them it was "evidence" that the vaccine is unsafe. They would not accept that correlation is not causation and the two things could be completely unrelated. You can't argue with stupid

Completely agree with you on correlation is not causation. It's a scandal that we have not applied the same critical thinking to Covid deaths...

[paulguitar]

Sahjahd said:

Of a circle of nine people I know to have been vaccinated, one wishes that she hadn't; hospitalised for three weeks at death's door, and still weak after two months. One person out of nine nearly killed by it is far worse that the nobody whom I know who has been anything beyond slightly under the weather as a result of covid.
I happily have a well proven influenza vaccine each year, on account of my age, but would never consider any vaccine or other drug which has been rushed to market without proper clinical studies of short, medium and long term effects, and especially not one of which the manufactures had been absolved of any liability in advance.

This is post is riddled with the sort of misinformation that spreads fear and confusion.

Firstly, the vaccines are not lacking 'proper clinical studies of short, medium and long term effects', We have no evidence if your friend who became ill did so as a result of the vaccine, and your sample size is nine.

[grumbledoak]

Prof Prolapse said:

It's a shame about your friend, did the medics conclude it was certainly the vaccine and report it as such?

COVID-19 deaths can be diagnosed over the phone. Vaccine deaths require a very high standard of proof.

[anonymous-user]

paulguitar said:

Sahjahd said:

Of a circle of nine people I know to have been vaccinated, one wishes that she hadn't; hospitalised for three weeks at death's door, and still weak after two months. One person out of nine nearly killed by it is far worse that the nobody whom I know who has been anything beyond slightly under the weather as a result of covid.
I happily have a well proven influenza vaccine each year, on account of my age, but would never consider any vaccine or other drug which has been rushed to market without proper clinical studies of short, medium and long term effects, and especially not one of which the manufactures had been absolved of any liability in advance.

This is post is riddled with the sort of misinformation that spreads fear and confusion.

[otolith]

grumbledoak said:

Prof Prolapse said:

It's a shame about your friend, did the medics conclude it was certainly the vaccine and report it as such?

COVID-19 deaths can be diagnosed over the phone. Vaccine deaths require a very high standard of proof.

Maybe that's because Covid is dangerous and the vaccine isn't?

[Prof Prolapse]

grumbledoak said:

Prof Prolapse said:

It's a shame about your friend, did the medics conclude it was certainly the vaccine and report it as such?

COVID-19 deaths can be diagnosed over the phone. Vaccine deaths require a very high standard of proof.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all COVID-19 related deaths require a positive diagnose in a validated laboratory.

The reporting of a death due to the vaccine can be done via centralised portal by healthcare professionals. Or via the MHRA yellow card scheme. Neither requires any proof, for a report to filed.

What is your point?

[grumbledoak]

Prof Prolapse said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all COVID-19 related deaths require a positive diagnose in a validated laboratory.

The reporting of a death due to the vaccine can be done via centralised portal by healthcare professionals. Or via the MHRA yellow card scheme. Neither requires any proof, for a report to filed.

What is your point?

No. Even now the daily deaths figures include those without a positive test.

and your response to the anecdotal vaccine injury was

Prof Prolapse said:

It's a shame about your friend, did the medics conclude it was certainly the vaccine and report it as such?

The standards of proof applied are laughably different. Thus my laughter.

[Sahjahd]

paulguitar said:

Sahjahd said:

Of a circle of nine people I know to have been vaccinated, one wishes that she hadn't; hospitalised for three weeks at death's door, and still weak after two months. One person out of nine nearly killed by it is far worse that the nobody whom I know who has been anything beyond slightly under the weather as a result of covid.
I happily have a well proven influenza vaccine each year, on account of my age, but would never consider any vaccine or other drug which has been rushed to market without proper clinical studies of short, medium and long term effects, and especially not one of which the manufactures had been absolved of any liability in advance.

This is post is riddled with the sort of misinformation that spreads fear and confusion.

Firstly, the vaccines are not lacking 'proper clinical studies of short, medium and long term effects', We have no evidence if your friend who became ill did so as a result of the vaccine, and your sample size is nine.

Completely factual information, and this is about informed consent, not fear and confusion. Everyone receiving a covid vaccine is taking part in a clinical trial of sorts; the sort without the usual meticulous recording of events, adverse or otherwise. Some subjects are doubtless aware of this which is fine, others are not, which is not.

The vaccines have not been in development long enough to have undergone proper studies into anything beyond extremely short term effects.

My sample size of vaccine recipients is indeed nine; insufficient to draw firm conclusions, but a remarkable coincidence that serious organ failure manifested itself in a previously healthy woman shortly after vaccination. My circle of relatives, friends and acquaintances however, is vast so the fact that I don't know anyone who has suffered more than very mild symptoms from covid is sufficient to convince me that I have little to fear from it.

grumbledoak said:

Prof Prolapse said:

It's a shame about your friend, did the medics conclude it was certainly the vaccine and report it as such?

COVID-19 deaths can be diagnosed over the phone. Vaccine deaths require a very high standard of proof.

Indeed.

[paulguitar]

Sahjahd said:

Completely factual information, and this is about informed consent, not fear and confusion.

It's not how science works, we can not and do not jump to conclusions from a sample size of nine, and we don't refer to a 'remarkable coincidence' when we do not as yet know what has happened.

Sahjahd said:

Everyone receiving a covid vaccine is taking part in a clinical trial of sorts; the sort without the usual meticulous recording of events, adverse or otherwise.

That's simply not the case.

Sahjahd said:

My circle of relatives, friends and acquaintances however, is vast

Presumably not more than the 36 million in the UK alone who have so far received vaccinations?

[sutoka]

Friend was telling me they were at the vaccination centre to get their first prick, they had just had it and was sent to sit down for 10-15 minutes. Young lad across from her appeared to full asleep and when one of the nurses checked he'd gone into a cardiac arrest at which point it's action stations and a defibrillator used and he's back and wheeled out to a waiting ambulance.

Now either it's a complete coincidence or else the vaccine triggered something in this young lad. First I've heard of this happening but I suppose side effects are severely under reported so must be others.

[Sahjahd]

paulguitar said:

Sahjahd said:

Completely factual information, and this is about informed consent, not fear and confusion.

It's not how science works, we can not and do not jump to conclusions from a sample size of nine, and we don't refer to a 'remarkable coincidence' when we do not as yet know what has happened.

Sahjahd said:

Everyone receiving a covid vaccine is taking part in a clinical trial of sorts; the sort without the usual meticulous recording of events, adverse or otherwise.

That's simply not the case.

Every new discovery shows previous "science" to have been wrong. As I made very clear in the full text of my posts, I am not jumping to conclusions, but do consider the near death worthy of proper investigation, along with all other adverse events, and in the meantime, to err on the side of caution; there are no second chances, one lives and dies just once.

A covert and defective clinical trial is exactly what the vaccine programme is; how else can it be described?

[Munter]

Sahjahd said:

Every new discovery shows previous "science" to have been wrong. As I made very clear in the full text of my posts, I am not jumping to conclusions, but do consider the near death worthy of proper investigation, along with all other adverse events, and in the meantime, to err on the side of caution; there are no second chances, one lives and dies just once.

A covert and defective clinical trial is exactly what the vaccine programme is; how else can it be described?

Every near death worthy of investigation. Blimey, we all have near death incidents every day. I used a sharp knife yesterday, if I'd slipped I could have killed myself. Who will investigate? I then ate the food! I know, even though food poisoning can kill, I did it anyway. Didn't run any checks/tests, just shoved it in my mouth.

What you're talking about is just life. Normal everyday life where we all take risks all the time.

The trials were run. That's why they took so long to get approved after they were created. It's no more risky than most things we do, it's not defective, and it's not a trial, covert or otherwise.

Nothing will convince you of course but there you go.

[Tankrizzo]

Sahjahd said:

Every new discovery shows previous "science" to have been wrong. As I made very clear in the full text of my posts, I am not jumping to conclusions, but do consider the near death worthy of proper investigation, along with all other adverse events, and in the meantime, to err on the side of caution; there are no second chances, one lives and dies just once.

A covert and defective clinical trial is exactly what the vaccine programme is; how else can it be described?

Your post above literally says your friend was almost killed by the vaccine. You have no evidence for that beyond "she had the jab and then at some point was very ill so it must be that".

[Castrol for a knave]

Sahjahd said:

Every new discovery shows previous "science" to have been wrong.

and there lies the issue, a complete misunderstanding of how science works.

Edited by Castrol for a knave on Thursday 13th May 09:53

[coldel]

Munter said:

Every near death worthy of investigation. Blimey, we all have near death incidents every day. I used a sharp knife yesterday, if I'd slipped I could have killed myself. Who will investigate? I then ate the food! I know, even though food poisoning can kill, I did it anyway. Didn't run any checks/tests, just shoved it in my mouth.

What you're talking about is just life. Normal everyday life where we all take risks all the time.

The trials were run. That's why they took so long to get approved after they were created. It's no more risky than most things we do, it's not defective, and it's not a trial, covert or otherwise.

Nothing will convince you of course but there you go.

Fundamentally a lack of understanding and a belief in hearsay is always at the base of these anti vaxxers type debates, you are right nothing will convince this guy otherwise, even if a million subject experts stood there with a million pages of empirical evidence.

COVID19 vaccine is not a completely new vaccine, its a learning on top of all the other COVID vaccines we already have, if you have the flu jab each year you are taking a new version of the flu vaccine each year, and people have side effects to it.

You also have the problem that these anti-vaccine people think that vaccine development takes X amount of years because literally they think test subjects are injected on day one and companies wait a few years to see what happens. So by halving the time its now not properly tested. It really is stupid assumptions like that that causes this panic around it, all simply because of a lack of understanding.

[otolith]

sutoka said:

Friend was telling me they were at the vaccination centre to get their first prick, they had just had it and was sent to sit down for 10-15 minutes. Young lad across from her appeared to full asleep and when one of the nurses checked he'd gone into a cardiac arrest at which point it's action stations and a defibrillator used and he's back and wheeled out to a waiting ambulance.

Now either it's a complete coincidence or else the vaccine triggered something in this young lad. First I've heard of this happening but I suppose side effects are severely under reported so must be others.

Perhaps consider the reasons a "young lad" would qualify for the jab.

[otolith]

I think we need a research paper to establish the relationship between the risk of adverse vaccine reactions and degrees of separation from lockdown sceptics.

[Prof Prolapse]

grumbledoak said:

Prof Prolapse said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all COVID-19 related deaths require a positive diagnose in a validated laboratory.

The reporting of a death due to the vaccine can be done via centralised portal by healthcare professionals. Or via the MHRA yellow card scheme. Neither requires any proof, for a report to filed.

What is your point?

No. Even now the daily deaths figures include those without a positive test.

and your response to the anecdotal vaccine injury was

Prof Prolapse said:

It's a shame about your friend, did the medics conclude it was certainly the vaccine and report it as such?

The standards of proof applied are laughably different. Thus my laughter.

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying.

[AlvinSultana]

sutoka said:

Friend was telling me they were at the vaccination centre to get their first prick, they had just had it and was sent to sit down for 10-15 minutes. Young lad across from her appeared to full asleep and when one of the nurses checked he'd gone into a cardiac arrest at which point it's action stations and a defibrillator used and he's back and wheeled out to a waiting ambulance.

Now either it's a complete coincidence or else the vaccine triggered something in this young lad. First I've heard of this happening but I suppose side effects are severely under reported so must be others.

Well given that "young lads" have not been offered a jab yet, you can conclude that he must have had a secondary condition which puts him in a higher risk group or he would not have been there.

Then again the whole story sounds slightly iffy, I have had both injections and I was never told to sit down for 10-15 mins. But somehow you are able to conclude from a second hand story that "there must be others".

Have you had your jab ?

[bmwmike]

AlvinSultana said:

sutoka said:

Friend was telling me they were at the vaccination centre to get their first prick, they had just had it and was sent to sit down for 10-15 minutes. Young lad across from her appeared to full asleep and when one of the nurses checked he'd gone into a cardiac arrest at which point it's action stations and a defibrillator used and he's back and wheeled out to a waiting ambulance.

Now either it's a complete coincidence or else the vaccine triggered something in this young lad. First I've heard of this happening but I suppose side effects are severely under reported so must be others.

Well given that "young lads" have not been offered a jab yet, you can conclude that he must have had a secondary condition which puts him in a higher risk group or he would not have been there.

Then again the whole story sounds slightly iffy, I have had both injections and I was never told to sit down for 10-15 mins. But somehow you are able to conclude from a second hand story that "there must be others".

Have you had your jab ?

And probably why there was a waiting ambulance. There certainly was no ambulances waiting where I got my jab, so far as I could see. Is it normal to have ambulances on hand? Maybe. Dunno myself, but if anyone has actual facts. Incidentally i got that jab early because I have massively sticky blood (not just the bogo factor 5) and I didn't drop dead.

How much does religion play a part in vaccine scepticism I wonder...