High-intensity interval training HIIT

[Ordinary_Chap]

You are correct, my experience of HIIT is predominately with BB folk.

Although when I had great results with it I think you couldn't of said I had a BB like body. I was low muscle, high fat!

[Pvapour]

goldblum said:

The fact you do weights first might have something to do with it!

Your raised metabolism after HIIT training will only be worth a fraction of the (fat burning) cals used on an easy 25 - 40 min run

at about 50 - 60% MHR.But whatever works is good.

there's no way I would or even could do it after a weights session, Always believed it to be counter productive to what's just been done with the weights?? and impossible to do if you've trained like a BB should anyway.

bales said:

I think there seems to be a bit of confusion with what this type of training is. In reality it is as broad a statement as saying what is the best way to weight train and is every bit as technical if not more so.

It all depends on what you want to achieve, like weights you always work around a set % of your maximum. You then can vary everything from speed, intensity, rest etc...

To say that you get fitter from just long runs is just wrong, long runs will only get you fitter at doing long runs. Specificity is key with all training.

Also sprint is used a lot in the above posts but isn't really the correct word. you cannot sprint for 1min then rest for a short time and then sprint again, it isn't physically possible! You need to look at your sessions technically and decide what you want to achieve with it.

bales said:

I m talking about running but it applies to any activity really, working truely anerobically you have 6-8s of absolutely maximal intensity. With a bit of a lower intensity and crossing into your lactic energy system you can manage approx 40s.

But obviously its all relative to the intensity and how much of your aerobic system you are using.

But after a 400m race which is say 45-50s of intensity for a good runner you will need at least 30mins recovery to get anywhere near a decent recovery.

Also just to add you are talking about hr but that isn't really relevant to sprinting or sprint training as your muscles are working in the absence of oxygen and so your heart and lungs can't supply the amount required hence you rely on your muscular stores. The fact that your heart rate is so high but is maintainble just shows that you are working aerobically - at a very high level naturally - but still aerobically.

Edited by bales on Saturday 26th March 15:08

I've just finished todays session so a little washed out but sounds like some interesting variations to apply, the rest of it I'll have to read a couple of times reading between the lines I think I may have pushed things a little too hard on my 1st attempt though.

Edited by Pvapour on Saturday 26th March 16:43

[Pvapour]

Ordinary_Chap said:

You are correct, my experience of HIIT is predominately with BB folk.

Although when I had great results with it I think you couldn't of said I had a BB like body. I was low muscle, high fat!

the basics of HIIT training I believe are:

Elevate your HR as high as possible in very short time frame, followed by slowing the HR as much as possible again in the same time frame.

Bodybuilders composition is muscle bias, muscles are used for the short sprint like bursts, HR increases to get the blood/oxygen to the muscle, more muscle will = a much faster elevation of the HR compared to a less muscle mass frame, similar in fact to what an overweight fat person would experience, difference being the Bodybuilders HR will recover much quicker.

so HIIT for BBs I would think, would have to be less explosive and more in line with what Goldblum has said, similar application as for an overweight/fat person? you would'nt have to push them as hard as an experienced runner using the HIIT method, in order to get them to loose weight/fat, no?

not saying your wrong at all Ordinarybloke, in fact its very interesting that your experience actually lies with BBs, yet from my limited knowledge of the human body, it would suggest that the best way of gaining fat loss through HIIT would be in completely the opposite direction in terms of intensity?

did they follow their normal weights sessions with HIIT?

[Ordinary_Chap]

I see a split between the folks who do lots of fast walks and other low HR CV and the HIIT group who believe short hard bursts will help to keep muscle mass by not doing long CV sessions.

I find it interesting how split the BB world is in terms of training from German high volume training to short HIT sessions.

I really think it's trial and error but I'm not sure there is value in HIIT training without maximum effort?

[bales]

Ordinary_Chap said:

I see a split between the folks who do lots of fast walks and other low HR CV and the HIIT group who believe short hard bursts will help to keep muscle mass by not doing long CV sessions.

I find it interesting how split the BB world is in terms of training from German high volume training to short HIT sessions.

I really think it's trial and error but I'm not sure there is value in HIIT training without maximum effort?

I think if you look at the build of sprinters then they manage to maintain muscle mass and be very fit all without the need for much if any low intensity aerobic exercise

[Pvapour]

Ordinary_Chap said:

I see a split between the folks who do lots of fast walks and other low HR CV and the HIIT group who believe short hard bursts will help to keep muscle mass by not doing long CV sessions.

I find it interesting how split the BB world is in terms of training from German high volume training to short HIT sessions.

I really think it's trial and error but I'm not sure there is value in HIIT training without maximum effort?

I'm thinking (from what has been said) keep 2 sessions of the lower HR CV I already do, remove one of them from the week and replace with a couple of HIIT attacks, start at the lower HR end as per Goldblum suggestion, monitor progress, then move up to max intensity as per your thoughts & see what difference it makes in comparison to the extra effort involved.

Does this sound like an effective way of introducing HIIT?

thinking of some metabolic rate increasers as well, any suggestions OC?

[Ordinary_Chap]

Pvapour said:

Ordinary_Chap said:

I see a split between the folks who do lots of fast walks and other low HR CV and the HIIT group who believe short hard bursts will help to keep muscle mass by not doing long CV sessions.

I find it interesting how split the BB world is in terms of training from German high volume training to short HIT sessions.

I really think it's trial and error but I'm not sure there is value in HIIT training without maximum effort?

I'm thinking (from what has been said) keep 2 sessions of the lower HR CV I already do, remove one of them from the week and replace with a couple of HIIT attacks, start at the lower HR end as per Goldblum suggestion, monitor progress, then move up to max intensity as per your thoughts & see what difference it makes in comparison to the extra effort involved.

Does this sound like an effective way of introducing HIIT?

thinking of some metabolic rate increasers as well, any suggestions OC?

For me you're either doing HIIT or you're not. It's not High Intensity Interval Training if you're heart rate is relatively low.

The only factor I'd alter is time either in the length of the sessions or in the recovery part of the training.

I don't advocate the use of stimulants (or take them myself) but I believe folk will do what they want too anyway and ultimately its their decision to make. They go from the mild to the moderate which would be ECA or ECY through to the hardcore and somewhat dangerous clen etc.

I've seen folk combine ECA/ECY with HIIT and achieve stunning results.

[mcelliott]

I'm intrigued by this discussion. Could someone explain at what point does an interval session actually become an interval session. i.e. at what percentage of your maximum heart rate do you regard it merely going from a 'difficult' workout to one of high intensity?

[goldblum]

There are two kinds of 'interval session':

1.For people who run and want to increase speed and fitness,and heartrate zones are mostly of secondary importance..

2.For people who want weightloss via increased metabolism,for whom heartrate zones are of primary importance.

for some runners the element of increased metabolism is simply a byproduct of this kind of training.

Although the sessions will be similar,ie rest periods and periods of much higher workrate,the goals are different.


This is quite basic,and explains why it's better for fatburning in lower HR zones,and why higher heartrate is anaerobic training.

http://www.howtobefit.com/five-heart-rate-zones.ht...

[mcelliott]

goldblum said:

There are two kinds of 'interval session':

1.For people who run and want to increase speed and fitness,and heartrate zones are mostly of secondary importance..

2.For people who want weightloss via increased metabolism,for whom heartrate zones are of primary importance.

for some runners the element of increased metabolism is simply a byproduct of this kind of training.

Although the sessions will be similar,ie rest periods and periods of much higher workrate,the goals are different.


This is quite basic,and explains why it's better for fatburning in lower HR zones,and why higher heartrate is anaerobic training.

http://www.howtobefit.com/five-heart-rate-zones.ht...

I am definitely in the first group. I've only ever seen intervals as a way of improving speed and power etc. The fact that it may, or may not burn fat is of no consequence to me.

[goldblum]

Lol.Same here.

[Pvapour]

as much point me chasing speed and fitness as you chasing heart rate zones probably

thanks for all he input, it has definitely given me more of an insight and some ideas on where in my routine I can apply it.

OC my question was tongue in cheek after reading your other contribution on ECAs etc

[Pvapour]

Driller said:

Pvapour said:

eta - Driller, not sure if my 3 day gym program would be suitable for you? unless your after a maintain program for an old fart

How do you know I'm not one? You can pm the program if it's too embarrassing

not embarrassing at all

Very basic on paper as I do allot of the info regarding reps, rest, warm ups, abs etc in my head as I constantly change these things to suit how I feel.

after 4 weeks all the exercises are mixed up again to keep me interested and shock my body, at the same time I will throw in a new base method to the training ie faster / lighter, slower / heavier, negative training, more concentration on stretching within each exercise, group power exercises for 1 week & then follow with a week of defining exercises and so on... (now added keeping HR between 108 > 128 which worked well the other night)

You get the idea, happy to post the changes as they happen if you or anyone else is interested

Be aware that this is not a very intense workout as I am only maintaing muscle mass, my workouts were almost twice this to achieve the mass I wanted.

Also, some of the terminology for the exercises is also home grown (as are some of the exercises) so just ask for a exercise description if you need it

Hope it helps

Week 1

Sesion 1
Chest
5 x Flat Bench Press
5 x Incline Flyes
3 x Cable x-overs
2 x Pull over’s

Triceps
4 x Ez bar overhead ext.
4 x kick backs

Sesion 2
Back
5 x wide grip Pull downs
5 x seated rows
3 x one arm cable pulls
2 x hyper extensions

Calves(alternate feet angle)
6 x Standing calf raise



Sesion 3
Shoulders
5 x wide press behind neck
5 x bent over flyes
3 x lateral raises

Biceps
3 x Alt. dumb. curls
3 x dumb. hammer curls
3 x cable through leg curls


Week 2

Sesion 1
Back
5 x narrow grip Pull downs
5 x t-bar
3 x one arm bench rows
2 x good mornings

Biceps
3 x straight bar curls
3 x one arm preacher
3 x concentration curls

Sesion 2
Chest
5 x Incline Bench Press
5 x Flat Flyes
2 x joined dumbell press
3 x dips

Shoulders
5 x dumbbell press
5 x upright rows
3 x shruggs

Sesion 3
Calves (alternate feet angle)
6 x seated calf raise

Triceps
4 x press downs
4 x single overhead ext.



Week 3

Sesion 1
Shoulders
5 x wide milatry press
5 x reverse pec dec
3 x 90 degree twist

Calves(alternate feet angle)
6 x Standing single calf raise


Sesion 2
Chest
5 x Flat Dumbell Press
5 x decline Flyes
2 x pec dec
3 x press ups

Biceps
3 x incline seated dumb
3 x single arm cable curls
3 x reverse grip ez bar curls

Sesion 3
Back
5 x wide grip chins
5 x reverse cable x-overs
3 x machine rows
2 x hyper extensions

Triceps
4 x close grip bench press
4 x single arm press downs


Week 4

Sesion 1
Biceps
5 x ez bar curls
3 x dumb. hammer curls
2 x overhead cable dble. bicep


Triceps
5 x behind head cable press.
5 x bench dips


Sesion 2
Back
5 x narrow grip chins
5 x heavy dumbbell rows
3 x fixed arc mach. pull downs
2 x good mornings

Shoulders
5 x machine press
5 x rev. seated incline bench
3 x single arm bent over cable

Sesion 3
Chest
5 x Incline Dumbell Press
5 x Flat Flyes
2 x pullovers
3 x cable x-overs

Calves(alternate feet angle)
6 x standing calf raise

Edited by Pvapour on Sunday 27th March 09:56

[Ordinary_Chap]

Any reason you only train your calves?

I'm curious because it sounds like you've been doing this for a long time and obviously have built up a competent level of knowledge around the subject.

Personally I've only been at it for a few years although I've trained in various ways all my life. I spent the 7 years previous in the military and did mostly CV and circuit training and my most under developed part is my legs.

[Pvapour]

Ordinary_Chap said:

Any reason you only train your calves?

I'm curious because it sounds like you've been doing this for a long time and obviously have built up a competent level of knowledge around the subject.

Personally I've only been at it for a few years although I've trained in various ways all my life. I spent the 7 years previous in the military and did mostly CV and circuit training and my most under developed part is my legs.

funny, I had to really stop and examine your question to figure what you were talking about then realised how weird that routine would look to some of you, NO QUADS or HAMSTRINGS!
not had to give any consideration to them in the gym for many years as they are naturally large and strong. If I do? they grow very quickly and thats not what I'm after, if I did, then I'd have to keep to 20 + reps so as not to gain to much size, shame as I used to love squats as they are good for upping your metabolic rate.

Also, For me (because of my weight) my Thighs (quads) & Hamstrings, glutes etc get allot from cycling & running, try doing these exercises with 30kg strapped to you and you'll know what I mean.

Calves were a different story, always a weaker area for me so I kept them in the Gym routine + I always wanted Arnies calves from 'Twins' hanging out the bottom of my shorts closest I get to the squat rack now & get to lift a semi big weight on my shoulders, 260kg standing raises hits the spot and I really look forward to them as I still feel young and capable they (calves) = the size of my arms now, which mathematical symmetry suggests they should

Edited by Pvapour on Sunday 27th March 10:44

[Ordinary_Chap]

Oh ok well that makes sense!

Leg day is my favourite day, I think mainly because they are under-developed.

[Pvapour]

Ordinary_Chap said:

Oh ok well that makes sense!

Leg day is my favourite day, I think mainly because they are under-developed.

That's unusual, most people train what the best at, good on yer

this HR monitor has me intrigued and I'd like to take it further in terms of analysing my results.

anyone know if there's a monitor that links to the iPhone through an App?

that way I can trace the high and low points of my heart over the HIIT period and mark my progress, not googled anything yet, I'd rather get peoples personal experience input as I value it more.

[Ordinary_Chap]

Pvapour said:

Ordinary_Chap said:

Oh ok well that makes sense!

Leg day is my favourite day, I think mainly because they are under-developed.

That's unusual, most people train what the best at, good on yer

this HR monitor has me intrigued and I'd like to take it further in terms of analysing my results.

anyone know if there's a monitor that links to the iPhone through an App?

that way I can trace the high and low points of my heart over the HIIT period and mark my progress, not googled anything yet, I'd rather get peoples personal experience input as I value it more.

It will be interesting to see how you get on with all of this although I guess either way it's very difficult to quantify.

I'm going for a mix of low intensity (45 mins +) and true HIIT for 15-20 min sessions to see what that does to my fat levels.

I love you're planned gym by the way, jealous? More than a little!

[Pvapour]

Ordinary_Chap said:

It will be interesting to see how you get on with all of this although I guess either way it's very difficult to quantify.

I'm going for a mix of low intensity (45 mins +) and true HIIT for 15-20 min sessions to see what that does to my fat levels.

I love you're planned gym by the way, jealous? More than a little!

Think we're both in a similar place in terms of interest around muscle gain v fat gain v muscle loss v fat loss,

read your 'lees challenge' thread (very interesting) and committed I must say! I assume you now looking at the fat loss side again?

I need to quantify as best I can now as my interest in HR v fat loss has grown!

Now I've started applying a low impact version of HIIT to my weights sessions as well, resulting in a much more slowed & controlled movement within the exercise itself, HR is kept between 108 & 148 for the whole workout, toward the end of the session though a 90 sec rest between sets only gets HR down to 120s (due to fatigue) but the peak remains at 148.

I have done 2 sessions like this now and I feel completely different after the workouts, much more energised and ready for the next day (think I was being to aerobic with my gym workouts before with 45 - 60 secs rest and faster action)

looking at a watch that records HR for each workout, you can then DL the information to the PC, this will enable me to track my hearts recovery performance v rest periods needed to keep my HR in the target zone.

Different to you I have removed the 40 min low aerobic run and replaced it with 2 x 20 min HIIT sessions (1 x bike, 1 x run) HR sits 140s > 170s

but again I dont feel lethargic from these sessions at all, if anything I seem to be burning faster all day, more alert and eager to do things!

weirdly i came across this today whilst looking for Bodybuilders target HR whilst in the gym http://www.steroidology.com/forum/training-forum/5...

definitely interested in your progress as you get on as well

I'm hooked tbo and it feels good, not been this interested in my training for years

ps- glad you like the gym any input would be appreciated.

[Ordinary_Chap]

That sounds great, I will be following your progress as I think we are on the same page with a slightly different approach.

I want to be as shredded as possible at the end of the 3 months and for me I'm just trying to gauge how fast I need to lose the fat, I know if I go too fast I will lose too much muscle but too slowly and I won't be as ripped as I could be.