Evora - first 200 models
Discussion
dom180 said:
Well there were more than a few US journos at the launch so go figure! I'm sure they'll sell a lot in EMEA too.
Well I hope so!!! Mike Kimberley is on record as saying there will be no espirit replacement, which is the car we really all want, without this one being a success! Surely they can't cock that one up as well!!!?Twit said:
dom180 said:
Well there were more than a few US journos at the launch so go figure! I'm sure they'll sell a lot in EMEA too.
Well I hope so!!! Mike Kimberley is on record as saying there will be no espirit replacement, which is the car we really all want, without this one being a success! Surely they can't cock that one up as well!!!?dom180 said:
Twit said:
dom180 said:
Well there were more than a few US journos at the launch so go figure! I'm sure they'll sell a lot in EMEA too.
Well I hope so!!! Mike Kimberley is on record as saying there will be no espirit replacement, which is the car we really all want, without this one being a success! Surely they can't cock that one up as well!!!?How can you make such a sweeping statment (off that back of a single juno?)
Yes, I am sure it's a very fine car to drive, but it's just a tad premature to write off "Porsche's finest" as you put it... (and for the record, I would suggest the Carerra GT would get that crown?)
I have no issue with people being positive about the Evora, and I want to to work for Lotus just as much as you undoubtabley do, but can we keep it to the land of reality please?
Scuffers said:
dom180 said:
Twit said:
dom180 said:
Well there were more than a few US journos at the launch so go figure! I'm sure they'll sell a lot in EMEA too.
Well I hope so!!! Mike Kimberley is on record as saying there will be no espirit replacement, which is the car we really all want, without this one being a success! Surely they can't cock that one up as well!!!?How can you make such a sweeping statment (off that back of a single juno?)
Yes, I am sure it's a very fine car to drive, but it's just a tad premature to write off "Porsche's finest" as you put it... (and for the record, I would suggest the Carerra GT would get that crown?)
I have no issue with people being positive about the Evora, and I want to to work for Lotus just as much as you undoubtabley do, but can we keep it to the land of reality please?
Edited: single journo, they've all been extremely positive about it.
Edited by dom180 on Wednesday 20th May 21:16
bodysnatcher said:
Thanks for the earlier tink to the R&T article, now I know who might have been responsible for driving like a t
t last Saturday afternoon.
Lotus finally allowed us to sample its new sports car, the Evora. Despite the torrential downpour in Loch Lomond just outside of Glasgow, Scotland — imagine that, rain in Scotland — I drove the new car for more than five hours, and logged 350 or so miles on the area's twisty, and sometimes crowded, roads.
Driving down the side of Loch Lomond, something red and shiny appeared quickly in the mirror, jinking in and out of traffic. I was doing 60ish in a fairly continuous stream of traffic. Did'nt recognise what it was, even though it was soon sitting bloody close on the back bumper. Good throttle response as the nut behind the wheel overtakes and then has to force back in in front of me.
"Aha, it's one of those new Lotuses, shame an arse seems to have bought one" I thought.
He does exactly the same to the car that was previously in front of me. Then turns off into the Cameron House hotel.
Yeah, R&T it was crowded, and yeah the road was wet - tosser.
Nice car though, if a bit pricey.
So, you'd be happy to say you weren't driving too close to the car in front in poor weather conditions?t last Saturday afternoon. Lotus finally allowed us to sample its new sports car, the Evora. Despite the torrential downpour in Loch Lomond just outside of Glasgow, Scotland — imagine that, rain in Scotland — I drove the new car for more than five hours, and logged 350 or so miles on the area's twisty, and sometimes crowded, roads.
Driving down the side of Loch Lomond, something red and shiny appeared quickly in the mirror, jinking in and out of traffic. I was doing 60ish in a fairly continuous stream of traffic. Did'nt recognise what it was, even though it was soon sitting bloody close on the back bumper. Good throttle response as the nut behind the wheel overtakes and then has to force back in in front of me.
"Aha, it's one of those new Lotuses, shame an arse seems to have bought one" I thought.
He does exactly the same to the car that was previously in front of me. Then turns off into the Cameron House hotel.
Yeah, R&T it was crowded, and yeah the road was wet - tosser.
Nice car though, if a bit pricey.
Edited by bodysnatcher on Wednesday 20th May 12:20
/devil's advocate
dom180 said:
No more so (imho) than people being negative and saying Lotus have screwed up when all evidence so far, suggests otherwise.
That isnt what people are doing at all! In my opinion I think the cars looks are iffy but I'm sure it drives as well as people say it does.What I am discussing is the price, again in my view properly spec'd its too expensive regardless of how good or bad it is. For 50-60K instead of some untried toyota V6, you get some proper exotica; in that company it starts to look pretty bad value. Add in fairly unsure residuals allied to the Lotus announced intention to put out a higher (proper) powered version out, then again it doesnt stack up. For someone paying 60k of their own cash on a car, that is the kind of issues that really do matter.
I want it to succeed, not because I like the style of the car but because if it doesnt succeed then Lotus will probably cease to exist. I think 10k cheaper it would be a sure fire hit because its in a price band that it probably could dominate. In its actual band it looks very susceptable to the opposition both new and used.
Twit said:
dom180 said:
No more so (imho) than people being negative and saying Lotus have screwed up when all evidence so far, suggests otherwise.
That isnt what people are doing at all! In my opinion I think the cars looks are iffy but I'm sure it drives as well as people say it does.What I am discussing is the price, again in my view properly spec'd its too expensive regardless of how good or bad it is. For 50-60K instead of some untried toyota V6, you get some proper exotica; in that company it starts to look pretty bad value. Add in fairly unsure residuals allied to the Lotus announced intention to put out a higher (proper) powered version out, then again it doesnt stack up. For someone paying 60k of their own cash on a car, that is the kind of issues that really do matter.
I want it to succeed, not because I like the style of the car but because if it doesnt succeed then Lotus will probably cease to exist. I think 10k cheaper it would be a sure fire hit because its in a price band that it probably could dominate. In its actual band it looks very susceptable to the opposition both new and used.
1) You are the only person who thinks the cars looks are "Iffy". - Specksavers?
2) I has just out driven an M3 and a 911 - for a fully specced car? How can that be too expensive. You may net see a VFM but many others do.
3) What exotica are you talking about? Les be exact and compare apples for apple. New car for £60k fully loaded that out drives an M3 and 911 AND does 30mpg and has 200 per year on UK roads.
do people really spend £50-60K on a luxury sports car, throwing away tens of thousands in the process
...then worry about the few quid difference between 25 and 35Mpg for the 6K miles a year they will be doing? LOL
flawed logic me thinks !
its a sportscar - a V8 and 15mpg is acceptable
..of course if you are buying it to do 30K miles a year in out of your own pocket, then it is a consideration....but most people I know who do that, are being paid by their company to do it so even then, an Evora can make a good daily driver
...then worry about the few quid difference between 25 and 35Mpg for the 6K miles a year they will be doing? LOL
flawed logic me thinks !
its a sportscar - a V8 and 15mpg is acceptable
..of course if you are buying it to do 30K miles a year in out of your own pocket, then it is a consideration....but most people I know who do that, are being paid by their company to do it so even then, an Evora can make a good daily driver
Place in the market: I think that Lotus' modest 2000 units per year will sell well although they have the challenge of the ecomonic downturn to contend with (I wonder if the project had been a few months in when the financial collapse happened what Lotus' strategy would have been?) along with everyone else. If they steal away a small percentage of Porsche buyers (or similar) then that will be enough. Its price is expensive, but that doesn't mean poor value - I'm sure Lotus haven't added 20K per car profit, that's just what you have to pay for a car of this performance and quality, if you'd had it cheaper then there would have been moaning about the finish or lack of tech or something else which inevitably costs money. I'm sure they've aimed for around the 50K price point and did their best to maximise what value they could. At the very least it is another alternative to consider - we should all be grateful for that at least.
Lightweight: A lot of comments about how the Evora is lardy. Again, I think you have to see it for what it is, it isn't a track day special or a nimble two seater, a 2+2 loaded with legislation driven devices and a higher level of comfort will of course have some mass associated with it. Compared to the rest of the field it doesn't stand out for being lighter appreciably, but it's certainly not lardy.
Lotus vs Porsche: Whether it's better or not than a Cayman/911/Carrara/GT3 (not that up on Porsche!) is probably largely subjective, it's certainly comparable though and probably does some things better than the Porsche while the Porsche does some other things better than the Evora. How this stacks up against your own priorities will decide whether you think it's better or not.
Personally I have never yearned for a Porsche, (Vermin Fawlty!) although I'll happily acknowledge their brilliant engineering and fantastic products I just don't think they are for me. Now I have a viable alternative in Lotus at that price point and wouldn't feel short changed either.
All the press reviews have been extremely positive, even the marmite looks get a general thumbs up (I'm actually starting to 'get' the looks myself - it is an 'individual' car!). It sounds like it drives superbly, is satisfyingly quick, the engine works well in the car and the build quality is good (which continues the trend already seen in the later exige/elise range).
Given all that, I really hope they do well with it - difficult times but they have been realistic in their sales expectations and I think that the car will soon sell itself on its merits.
All in all, well done chaps - I'm probably in the Elise/Exige S3 market more than the Evora, but if I had the cash (or was an MP) I'd be in like Flynn. I think it's a great step for Lotus and Mike and the team should be proud - they'll certainly be pleased with the results so far.
ETA - just as an irrelevent footnote, I just watched an American car test programme (I'll dig out the youtube link when I get a chance) which was just about the best test I've seen; a 430, 911 turbo and Exige 240 driven by two different drivers, (both of whom are professional racing drivers), doing a mile run up Mullholland highway (that twisty one) and a mile back down. Both drivers took it in turns with each car for both runs. The 430 came last on cumulative time, the Exige second and the 911 first - but only a second separated the 911 and Exige. The Exige was actually quickest on the downhill run.
Lightweight: A lot of comments about how the Evora is lardy. Again, I think you have to see it for what it is, it isn't a track day special or a nimble two seater, a 2+2 loaded with legislation driven devices and a higher level of comfort will of course have some mass associated with it. Compared to the rest of the field it doesn't stand out for being lighter appreciably, but it's certainly not lardy.
Lotus vs Porsche: Whether it's better or not than a Cayman/911/Carrara/GT3 (not that up on Porsche!) is probably largely subjective, it's certainly comparable though and probably does some things better than the Porsche while the Porsche does some other things better than the Evora. How this stacks up against your own priorities will decide whether you think it's better or not.
Personally I have never yearned for a Porsche, (Vermin Fawlty!) although I'll happily acknowledge their brilliant engineering and fantastic products I just don't think they are for me. Now I have a viable alternative in Lotus at that price point and wouldn't feel short changed either.
All the press reviews have been extremely positive, even the marmite looks get a general thumbs up (I'm actually starting to 'get' the looks myself - it is an 'individual' car!). It sounds like it drives superbly, is satisfyingly quick, the engine works well in the car and the build quality is good (which continues the trend already seen in the later exige/elise range).
Given all that, I really hope they do well with it - difficult times but they have been realistic in their sales expectations and I think that the car will soon sell itself on its merits.
All in all, well done chaps - I'm probably in the Elise/Exige S3 market more than the Evora, but if I had the cash (or was an MP) I'd be in like Flynn. I think it's a great step for Lotus and Mike and the team should be proud - they'll certainly be pleased with the results so far.
ETA - just as an irrelevent footnote, I just watched an American car test programme (I'll dig out the youtube link when I get a chance) which was just about the best test I've seen; a 430, 911 turbo and Exige 240 driven by two different drivers, (both of whom are professional racing drivers), doing a mile run up Mullholland highway (that twisty one) and a mile back down. Both drivers took it in turns with each car for both runs. The 430 came last on cumulative time, the Exige second and the 911 first - but only a second separated the 911 and Exige. The Exige was actually quickest on the downhill run.
Edited by andy_s on Thursday 21st May 10:39
bogie said:
do people really spend £50-60K on a luxury sports car, throwing away tens of thousands in the process
...then worry about the few quid difference between 25 and 35Mpg for the 6K miles a year they will be doing? LOL
flawed logic me thinks !
its a sportscar - a V8 and 15mpg is acceptable
..of course if you are buying it to do 30K miles a year in out of your own pocket, then it is a consideration....but most people I know who do that, are being paid by their company to do it so even then, an Evora can make a good daily driver
Hmmm, not the only point. on going cost of ownership has a large bearing on second hand prices and with fule getting more and more expensive it is a worthy consideration, plus it would be a lower tax road fund licence band. It is also a "green" consideration....then worry about the few quid difference between 25 and 35Mpg for the 6K miles a year they will be doing? LOL
flawed logic me thinks !
its a sportscar - a V8 and 15mpg is acceptable
..of course if you are buying it to do 30K miles a year in out of your own pocket, then it is a consideration....but most people I know who do that, are being paid by their company to do it so even then, an Evora can make a good daily driver
For me, it means I have to give the govt less tax and it makes a commute affordable - I wouldnt have to buy a diesel clio for the work run.
Twit said:
For 50-60K instead of some untried toyota V6, you get some proper exotica;
leaving aside the "untried Toyota bit " ( the worlds largest motor company with a peerless rep for quality) you're not actually trying to tell us that the Porker is exotic are you? You see more of them around than you do of MR2 or S2000 or 350Z. They are about as exotic as VW! Or do you think you can get a new Fezza or Lambo for the 60k or less of an Evora?
OK... Actually some of the criticisms of what I wrote are valid, if you compare only new cars then there are fewer alternatives. What I was getting at is that if you have 60K to spend on a car new or used then there are some pretty attractive alternatives - the GTR is one new, or you have a V8 vantage, 996 gt3; you'd probably get an RS definetly a turbo, even the xkr, they are just off the top of my head.
In my view (my view) I don't like the styling, I'm not alone on that, even some of the reviews say its fussy. I have no doubt the thing drives awesomely well- the reviews are all great, that isnt a fluke, and when we all get to drive it we will all see.
There is some view on here which is that if people can afford 60k for a car you can afford to piss loads of it away in ownership costs. That isnt the case, I will be spending about that ona new car this year - and its my money. I want to make sure as much of that is preserved in ownership, that is not uncommon and it will come into many buyer thoughts. Running costs are pretty irrelevant to me as I don't really pay other than servicing. When you add in retention type issues and, also, the extra toys you can have, then you may wish to go with the proven alternatives rather than the un-proven one.
Bottom line is that if the car had been 45k fully spec'd it would have been a nailed on success regardless of looks etc. By pitching it into the 60k market, I think Lotus have made life difficult for themselves, I really hope it succeeds and they sell thousand of the things as it will mean when a proper full powered one arrives it will be fully supported, but there is a risk that it may not sell enough - no one knows, we will have to wait and see.
In my view (my view) I don't like the styling, I'm not alone on that, even some of the reviews say its fussy. I have no doubt the thing drives awesomely well- the reviews are all great, that isnt a fluke, and when we all get to drive it we will all see.
There is some view on here which is that if people can afford 60k for a car you can afford to piss loads of it away in ownership costs. That isnt the case, I will be spending about that ona new car this year - and its my money. I want to make sure as much of that is preserved in ownership, that is not uncommon and it will come into many buyer thoughts. Running costs are pretty irrelevant to me as I don't really pay other than servicing. When you add in retention type issues and, also, the extra toys you can have, then you may wish to go with the proven alternatives rather than the un-proven one.
Bottom line is that if the car had been 45k fully spec'd it would have been a nailed on success regardless of looks etc. By pitching it into the 60k market, I think Lotus have made life difficult for themselves, I really hope it succeeds and they sell thousand of the things as it will mean when a proper full powered one arrives it will be fully supported, but there is a risk that it may not sell enough - no one knows, we will have to wait and see.
bordseye said:
Twit said:
For 50-60K instead of some untried toyota V6, you get some proper exotica;
leaving aside the "untried Toyota bit " ( the worlds largest motor company with a peerless rep for quality) you're not actually trying to tell us that the Porker is exotic are you? You see more of them around than you do of MR2 or S2000 or 350Z. They are about as exotic as VW! Or do you think you can get a new Fezza or Lambo for the 60k or less of an Evora?
Sorry twit, but did you think about your post at all?
dom180 said:
Twit said:
Mikeyboy said:
originally thought the car was way too expensive when the gave an indicative price. Then the reviews came in and I thought, yeah then maybe its about the right price and then I read the OP. if its rue that most of the spec options are pretty essential then this car is far far too expensive, especially when you consider it can get you another 2+2 seater which gets pretty consistently good reviews. The GT-R
I agree with you and as the OP, I do think the different packs will be essential making it just too much. Ages ago I posted on here wondering what the market was, I still don't know. At that price if you want a fast four seater why would you buy the evora, you'd go with the GTR, an M3/5 any number of AMGs. Christ you can get a reasonable Massa GT for close to new Evora money and I'd take that any day.
The evora has to be cheaper. I really really hope that the US 'gets' the Evora and buys the thing or Lotus is in deep s
t! This months Car magazine (well worth buying for 2 Evora articles, a GT3 v fly-by-wire GT-R and Nurburgring feature) compares the Evora to the 997 and M3 and it does very well indeed.
And apparantly they're only looking to sell 200/year in the UK - sounds like job done to me.
And that's before you even begin to go into the fact that even the tests agree that the Cayman is close in handling, and will probably costs the average buyer less, are provenly more reliable, better made and perceived to hold their value better( even though Lotus's actually do). people have struggled to justify the price of Caymans i the past so with all i've said where do you think those that have to compare a cheaper porsche against a Lotus Evora are going to spend their money? Badge snobbery is a fact and Lotus have to accept that and probably already have. So should people on here.
p.s. I want an Evora and only have the car I do because I couldn't wait for it to be launched/delivered. Now I have to wait a year or two until the first ones become affordable in the used markets.
Gooby said:
bordseye said:
Twit said:
For 50-60K instead of some untried toyota V6, you get some proper exotica;
leaving aside the "untried Toyota bit " ( the worlds largest motor company with a peerless rep for quality) you're not actually trying to tell us that the Porker is exotic are you? You see more of them around than you do of MR2 or S2000 or 350Z. They are about as exotic as VW! Or do you think you can get a new Fezza or Lambo for the 60k or less of an Evora?
Sorry twit, but did you think about your post at all?
Scuffers said:
hate to mention this but the Evora engine is actually old hat in toyota terms, it's been superceeded by the GDI V6 (no idea why Lotus have not got the current one?)
Perhaps they weren't happy with the fact that the newer generation is relatively untested, given that the Evora will probably put it under rather more stress than the average Toyota. Or perhaps Toyota wanted more money for their later engine.
Edited by kambites on Friday 22 May 08:34
kambites said:
Scuffers said:
hate to mention this but the Evora engine is actually old hat in toyota terms, it's been superceeded by the GDI V6 (no idea why Lotus have not got the current one?)
Perhaps they weren't happy with the fact that the newer generation is relatively untested, given that the Evora will probably put it under rather more stress than the average Toyota. Or perhaps Toyota wanted more money for their later engine.
they probably do more pre-production and post production testing than just about any other car maker out there...
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