The Official Arsenal - 14 x FA Cup winners thread - Vol 4
Discussion
But again, the UEFA coefficient can be in decline because the top PL clubs are choosing to focus on top four rather than doing well in Europe (where, lets face it, once they come up against Real, Barca or Bayern, they'll be lucky to proceed).
None of what you say proves a decline in quality in the PL. Personally from watching I think the top clubs, whilst inconsistent, have played some of their best football in years recently.
None of what you say proves a decline in quality in the PL. Personally from watching I think the top clubs, whilst inconsistent, have played some of their best football in years recently.
TEKNOPUG said:
Rubbish. Arsenal finished 5th in England, they are far better, bigger and richer than any other 5th placed club from Spain, Italy or Germany. Italy is dominated by Juve, the rest of the clubs are way behind. Only 2 in Germany although again, totally dominated by one club. The 4th best team in Spain lost to Leicester and the 3rd best only scraped past them by one goal. And Leciester finished 12th...
Whilst it's true that the top 3 or 4 clubs in Europe are better than the best English clubs at the moment, that doesn't reflect the strength of their respective leagues. Real and Barca are basically state sponsored, have their own TV deals, benefit from tax breaks and even then commit fraud to seek an advantage. Sevilla in 4th aren't even in the top 30 richest clubs in Europe. And the fact that Juve, Bayern, Madrid etc have such lack of competition in their own leagues, can only help their CL campaigns. There is no money and no strength in depth in any of the other countries. This is another example of confusing individual clubs with national leagues.
United have just broke the transfer record - how are they a feeder for anyone? And they've won the EL and are only the 6th best team in England.
Sevilla have dominated the EL for years. They've won it about 5 times in the last ten years or so. That's when they've been a very average Spanish team too. You're slating them as a team, but promoting Man Utd's EL as an achievement. Whilst it's true that the top 3 or 4 clubs in Europe are better than the best English clubs at the moment, that doesn't reflect the strength of their respective leagues. Real and Barca are basically state sponsored, have their own TV deals, benefit from tax breaks and even then commit fraud to seek an advantage. Sevilla in 4th aren't even in the top 30 richest clubs in Europe. And the fact that Juve, Bayern, Madrid etc have such lack of competition in their own leagues, can only help their CL campaigns. There is no money and no strength in depth in any of the other countries. This is another example of confusing individual clubs with national leagues.
United have just broke the transfer record - how are they a feeder for anyone? And they've won the EL and are only the 6th best team in England.
They absolutely battered Leicester missing countless great chances and missing two penalties. I'm sure Leicester averaged about 25% possession over both legs which is what you expect from a premier team playing a lower league side.
Leicester maybe only finished 12th, but they were good enough to win the league last season and recovered their form once they sacked their Raneri. They got an extremely easy group and still rode their luck against weak European teams.
It's fine to pull out single games, but you need to look at the bigger picture.
Yipper said:
Again, slightly overinflated expectations. Arsenal are not even in the top-20 biggest stadiums by capacity in the European Champions League countries. Lots of bigger clubs out there. And Arsenal have never won the top European Cup / Champs League in their entire 124-year history.
Wenger's managerial record is 3 times better than the Arsenal average. He is an above-average and perfectly good manager for a second-tier club (in global terms) like Arsenal.
That's not how it was sold to the fans. During the transition to the Emirates we were advised to be patient - the new ground would be a stage to the big time - some adjustment would take place and we wouldn't be in the transfer market for top tier players,in fact we became a feeder club. This being reflected in ticket prices ! Now the ground is all up and paid for,when you expected the cheque book to come back out again and we've actually gone backwards in the last 5/6 years. A few FA cups doesn't make up for being nowhere near winning the PL title or being utterly humiliated in the CL year after year.Wenger's managerial record is 3 times better than the Arsenal average. He is an above-average and perfectly good manager for a second-tier club (in global terms) like Arsenal.
Give me back Highbury,Bergkamp,Henry,Ian Wrightwrightwright anyday.
If we have to accept mediocre football the ticket prices need to reflect that. I bet Watners new deal won't be £8M a year this time around,it's a disgrace tbh based on his fading abilities - I feel for the season ticket lot,bend over,here goes another years bumrape and groundhog day.
jammy-git said:
But again, the UEFA coefficient can be in decline because the top PL clubs are choosing to focus on top four rather than doing well in Europe (where, lets face it, once they come up against Real, Barca or Bayern, they'll be lucky to proceed).
None of what you say proves a decline in quality in the PL. Personally from watching I think the top clubs, whilst inconsistent, have played some of their best football in years recently.
Come on.... clubs more interested in top 4 than the CL? Not a chance. Why fight so hard to get there if you aren't going to take it seriously? The CL is the absolute pinnacle of club football. None of what you say proves a decline in quality in the PL. Personally from watching I think the top clubs, whilst inconsistent, have played some of their best football in years recently.
Only a very lucky Leicester team was lucky to get the quarter finals. Only Man City got passed the last 16 last year.
In the last 3 years only 2 sides have made it passed the last 16.
Is that an acceptable standard for the apparent strength and depth of the English football?
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 31st May 06:34
Driver101 said:
Sevilla have dominated the EL for years. They've won it about 5 times in the last ten years or so. That's when they've been a very average Spanish team too. You're slating them as a team, but promoting Man Utd's EL as an achievement.
They absolutely battered Leicester missing countless great chances and missing two penalties. I'm sure Leicester averaged about 25% possession over both legs which is what you expect from a premier team playing a lower league side.
Leicester maybe only finished 12th, but they were good enough to win the league last season and recovered their form once they sacked their Raneri. They got an extremely easy group and still rode their luck against weak European teams.
It's fine to pull out single games, but you need to look at the bigger picture.
The 4th best team in England could never win the EL as Aresnal were always playing in the CL....They absolutely battered Leicester missing countless great chances and missing two penalties. I'm sure Leicester averaged about 25% possession over both legs which is what you expect from a premier team playing a lower league side.
Leicester maybe only finished 12th, but they were good enough to win the league last season and recovered their form once they sacked their Raneri. They got an extremely easy group and still rode their luck against weak European teams.
It's fine to pull out single games, but you need to look at the bigger picture.
Sevilla won the EL when it wasn't worth winning - no CL place for the winner. Sevilla were never going to finish top 3 in Spain (as they are very average team as you say) and get a CL place, so they could make the EL their top priority. The top 6 English teams were concentrating on trying to finish top 4 and get a CL place, the EL was merely a distraction. As soon as the EL awards a CL place, what happens? English teams try and get to the final. Liverpool last year and United this year. That's 8th place Liverpool and 6th place United....I fully expect English teams to dominate the EL in future years.
I think you also need to look at the bigger picture - there are only 3 teams in Spain - the rest are miles off competing - 2 teams in Germany, 1 team in Italy and latterly 2 teams in France. Their league competitions are very weak. Thus these top teams are able to concentrate on the CL because they know they will qualify again every year. Also, certainly in Spain, the CL is given priority by the La Liga because Madrid/Barca have so much power and European success is a cause for state pride. In England, the Premier League aren't going to make concessions to the CL - it's a rival product. It's not in their interests for the CL to be seen as a higher priority or more prestigious brand.
Driver101 said:
jammy-git said:
But again, the UEFA coefficient can be in decline because the top PL clubs are choosing to focus on top four rather than doing well in Europe (where, lets face it, once they come up against Real, Barca or Bayern, they'll be lucky to proceed).
None of what you say proves a decline in quality in the PL. Personally from watching I think the top clubs, whilst inconsistent, have played some of their best football in years recently.
Come on.... clubs more interested in top 4 than the CL? Not a chance. Why fight so hard to get there if you aren't going to take it seriously? The CL is the absolute pinnacle of club football. None of what you say proves a decline in quality in the PL. Personally from watching I think the top clubs, whilst inconsistent, have played some of their best football in years recently.
Only a very lucky Leicester team was lucky to get the quarter finals. Only Man City got passed the last 16 last year.
In the last 3 years only 2 sides have made it passed the last 16.
Is that an acceptable standard for the apparent strength and depth of the English football?
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 31st May 06:34
The shine from the FA Cup win has disappeared very quickly!
The Times reporting this morning that Sanchez definitely wants to leave and Ozil at 29 is happy to run his contract down and leave on a free next summer. Both apparently not convinced the club can win things. Which is another way of saying to your team mates that you don't think they're good enough/the manager isn't.
Long summer ahead..........
If I was either of them I'd be wanting to see signs of serious intent in the transfer market before putting pen to paper.,...the rumoured £300k a week is I am sure achievable elsewhere or maybe you have to slum it on £200k a week if you go to Bayern or PSG!
The Times reporting this morning that Sanchez definitely wants to leave and Ozil at 29 is happy to run his contract down and leave on a free next summer. Both apparently not convinced the club can win things. Which is another way of saying to your team mates that you don't think they're good enough/the manager isn't.
Long summer ahead..........
If I was either of them I'd be wanting to see signs of serious intent in the transfer market before putting pen to paper.,...the rumoured £300k a week is I am sure achievable elsewhere or maybe you have to slum it on £200k a week if you go to Bayern or PSG!
Cheib said:
The Times reporting this morning that Sanchez definitely wants to leave and Ozil at 29 is happy to run his contract down and leave on a free next summer. Both apparently not convinced the club can win things.
They've been there long enough to know that now.Its not as if they are the only ones that know we aren't going to win the the PL again, let alone the CL (not sure we're even good enough to win EL either).
On our day in a one-off match we are, we're just not good enough at a high level over a sustained period.
Cheib said:
Which is another way of saying to your team mates that you don't think they're good enough/the manager isn't.
And again, they'd be right.As you say, a long summer.
I'm expecting the usual 'being linked with every player on the planet' and an eventual last minute expensive influx of dross.
Situation normal.
TEKNOPUG said:
Driver101 said:
Come on.... clubs more interested in top 4 than the CL? Not a chance. Why fight so hard to get there if you aren't going to take it seriously? The CL is the absolute pinnacle of club football.
Only a very lucky Leicester team was lucky to get the quarter finals. Only Man City got passed the last 16 last year.
In the last 3 years only 2 sides have made it passed the last 16.
Is that an acceptable standard for the apparent strength and depth of the English football?
Because money. £50m for CL qualifying. Plus all the corporate/sponsorship deals are tied into CL qualification. How much were United going to lose from Adidas if they didn't beat Ajax? Arsenal seem quite happy to get knocked out at the last 16 year upon year upon year upon year.....Only a very lucky Leicester team was lucky to get the quarter finals. Only Man City got passed the last 16 last year.
In the last 3 years only 2 sides have made it passed the last 16.
Is that an acceptable standard for the apparent strength and depth of the English football?
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 31st May 06:34
In fact pretty much all my football mates agree with the general premise:
1. the demands of the EPL (number of games, no xmas break, intensity of games, broader spread of quality), plus
2. the financial rewards (huge reward for staying in it, £2M for every higher place, sponsorship bonuses)
= the top 4 have to field strong teams every week, and play more tough games
= more fatigue and injuries
= less successful CL campaigns
Don't get me wrong, the CL should be the pinnacle of European football. But EPL teams are at a disadvantage due to the competiveness and makeup of theri league. It can be no coincidence that the last 2 winners played 0 european games. You only have to look at the TV distribution in La Liga for example to see how skewed in favour of the top teams and how that transfers to the league positions. Last season Real Madrid and Barcelona earnt around €140 million each while champions Atletico Madrid only got €42 million and the bottom club Almeria got €18 million only. Sunderland got £100m this season....
They are changing the rulesl in Spain to distribute 50% TV revenue equally to all clubs. But....no club can receive less than they did this year. So Real and Barca will stil get €140 million each minimum.....more state intervention.
Lest we forget....
Barca, Real and Bayern are not businesses - they are members clubs. The Presidents get elected and stay in power based upon results. It doesn't matter if you bankrupt the club as long as you win. Even so, you'll just have your debts written off or sell the training ground to the council for €1bn, again. Fail to win and you get fired.
Who is going to fire Stan? Or the Glazers? Or Roman?
So whilst the very top clubs maybe more successful in the CL than English clubs at present, that is in no way representative of the strength or quality of their respective leagues. Citeh are clearly going to keep spending stupid money until they win the CL - will that then mean that La Liga or Bundesliga are in decline? Or EPL is in the ascendancy? Or nothing at all?
They are changing the rulesl in Spain to distribute 50% TV revenue equally to all clubs. But....no club can receive less than they did this year. So Real and Barca will stil get €140 million each minimum.....more state intervention.
Lest we forget....
Kronke said:
“If you want to win Championships then you would never get involved.”
Barca, Real and Bayern are not businesses - they are members clubs. The Presidents get elected and stay in power based upon results. It doesn't matter if you bankrupt the club as long as you win. Even so, you'll just have your debts written off or sell the training ground to the council for €1bn, again. Fail to win and you get fired.
Who is going to fire Stan? Or the Glazers? Or Roman?
So whilst the very top clubs maybe more successful in the CL than English clubs at present, that is in no way representative of the strength or quality of their respective leagues. Citeh are clearly going to keep spending stupid money until they win the CL - will that then mean that La Liga or Bundesliga are in decline? Or EPL is in the ascendancy? Or nothing at all?
TEKNOPUG said:
Because money. £50m for CL qualifying. Plus all the corporate/sponsorship deals are tied into CL qualification. How much were United going to lose from Adidas if they didn't beat Ajax? Arsenal seem quite happy to get knocked out at the last 16 year upon year upon year upon year.....
True but Man U made £36mil from their Europa Cup run so not a massive difference in TV money vs CL. The Adidas point is fair enough but that was because they were going to miss out for a second year...only after two year's that clause kicked in. That said Man U of course have a massive squad (and v. expensive) so more than capable of dealing with two competitions week in week out.
Arsenal will have to go full on for the Europa League next year. PL form not good enough to think there's any chance of Cl otherwise.
TEKNOPUG said:
The 4th best team in England could never win the EL as Aresnal were always playing in the CL....
Sevilla won the EL when it wasn't worth winning - no CL place for the winner. Sevilla were never going to finish top 3 in Spain (as they are very average team as you say) and get a CL place, so they could make the EL their top priority. The top 6 English teams were concentrating on trying to finish top 4 and get a CL place, the EL was merely a distraction. As soon as the EL awards a CL place, what happens? English teams try and get to the final. Liverpool last year and United this year. That's 8th place Liverpool and 6th place United....I fully expect English teams to dominate the EL in future years.
I think you also need to look at the bigger picture - there are only 3 teams in Spain - the rest are miles off competing - 2 teams in Germany, 1 team in Italy and latterly 2 teams in France. Their league competitions are very weak. Thus these top teams are able to concentrate on the CL because they know they will qualify again every year. Also, certainly in Spain, the CL is given priority by the La Liga because Madrid/Barca have so much power and European success is a cause for state pride. In England, the Premier League aren't going to make concessions to the CL - it's a rival product. It's not in their interests for the CL to be seen as a higher priority or more prestigious brand.
Wrong on so many points.....Sevilla won the EL when it wasn't worth winning - no CL place for the winner. Sevilla were never going to finish top 3 in Spain (as they are very average team as you say) and get a CL place, so they could make the EL their top priority. The top 6 English teams were concentrating on trying to finish top 4 and get a CL place, the EL was merely a distraction. As soon as the EL awards a CL place, what happens? English teams try and get to the final. Liverpool last year and United this year. That's 8th place Liverpool and 6th place United....I fully expect English teams to dominate the EL in future years.
I think you also need to look at the bigger picture - there are only 3 teams in Spain - the rest are miles off competing - 2 teams in Germany, 1 team in Italy and latterly 2 teams in France. Their league competitions are very weak. Thus these top teams are able to concentrate on the CL because they know they will qualify again every year. Also, certainly in Spain, the CL is given priority by the La Liga because Madrid/Barca have so much power and European success is a cause for state pride. In England, the Premier League aren't going to make concessions to the CL - it's a rival product. It's not in their interests for the CL to be seen as a higher priority or more prestigious brand.
Sevilla won it the last 3 years running and they did get a CL place after last year.
It's the top 4 sides that quality from Spain for the CL. They had 5 teams this year due to Sevilla winning the EL last season and finishing in the top 4.
They used to be finishing midtable and winning the EL, now they have progressed to a top 4 club. The top 4 in Spain is much stronger than the top 4 English teams.
Having a weak league doesn't help teams in the CL. Coming up against teams of superior quality than you're used to playing is a real issue. Constantly playing on the front foot in the league and they having to completely change style in the CL isn't good. That's the same reason for English teams getting weaker in Europe in my opinion.
It's hardly like Real and Juventus walked their league's this year anyway. Both only won by a few points and both still made it to CL final yet again. That's even after Juventus selling the world's most expensive player.
The CL does take priority over the league. There is an agreement not to play premier league games when the CL is on. The CL is a far more prestigious brand. I'm sure the vast majority people would dream of a CL win well ahead of a premier league title.
Spurs, as a top 4 club, did have a go at the EL this season after being eliminated in the group stages of the CL finishing 3rd to Monaco and Bayern Leverkusen. They got knocked out of the EL by Gent.
Last season(when there was also a CL spot) Man Utd also played in the EL after being eliminated at the CL group stages after finishing 3rd behind Wolfsburg and PSV Eindhoven. None of these teams are even close to elite European sides.
Cheib said:
TEKNOPUG said:
Because money. £50m for CL qualifying. Plus all the corporate/sponsorship deals are tied into CL qualification. How much were United going to lose from Adidas if they didn't beat Ajax? Arsenal seem quite happy to get knocked out at the last 16 year upon year upon year upon year.....
True but Man U made £36mil from their Europa Cup run so not a massive difference in TV money vs CL. The Adidas point is fair enough but that was because they were going to miss out for a second year...only after two year's that clause kicked in. That said Man U of course have a massive squad (and v. expensive) so more than capable of dealing with two competitions week in week out.
Arsenal will have to go full on for the Europa League next year. PL form not good enough to think there's any chance of Cl otherwise.
But I agree, the English teams will take the EL a lto more seriously now there is a CL place at stake. Is it just Arsenal and Everton initially qualified next season?
TEKNOPUG said:
I think there's a big difference between simply qualifying for the CL (£50m) and playing 15 games in the EL and getting £36m, if you win the final....
But I agree, the English teams will take the EL a lto more seriously now there is a CL place at stake. Is it just Arsenal and Everton initially qualified next season?
Where does the £50m figure come from? But I agree, the English teams will take the EL a lto more seriously now there is a CL place at stake. Is it just Arsenal and Everton initially qualified next season?
Each team gets €12.7m for reaching the group stages.
Driver101 said:
The CL does take priority over the league. There is an agreement not to play premier league games when the CL is on. The CL is a far more prestigious brand.
That is a TV arrangement, not necessarily the team/manager/fan priorityDriver101 said:
I'm sure the vast majority people would dream of a CL win well ahead of a premier league title.
Can only speak for myself but I would much rather win the league again than the CLAdam B said:
Driver101 said:
The CL does take priority over the league. There is an agreement not to play premier league games when the CL is on. The CL is a far more prestigious brand.
That is a TV arrangement, not necessarily the team/manager/fan priorityDriver101 said:
I'm sure the vast majority people would dream of a CL win well ahead of a premier league title.
Can only speak for myself but I would much rather win the league again than the CLhttp://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39458057
I'd still be surprised if it ended up a regular occurrence. The tv viewing figures are already slumping for the premier league and the last thing they'd need is to go head to head with the CL.
Driver101 said:
TEKNOPUG said:
I think there's a big difference between simply qualifying for the CL (£50m) and playing 15 games in the EL and getting £36m, if you win the final....
But I agree, the English teams will take the EL a lto more seriously now there is a CL place at stake. Is it just Arsenal and Everton initially qualified next season?
Where does the £50m figure come from? But I agree, the English teams will take the EL a lto more seriously now there is a CL place at stake. Is it just Arsenal and Everton initially qualified next season?
Each team gets €12.7m for reaching the group stages.
TEKNOPUG said:
TV revenue, sponsorship, match days etc. It's not just prize money.
I do appreciate that, but Man Utd "only" got €38m last year when they didn't progress from the group stages. Given Man Utd's superior commercial appeal I can't see how they made €38m and others are making £50m for just qualifying. The money soon ramps up in later rounds especially when teams from the same country are knocked out.
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 31st May 14:14
Driver101 said:
TEKNOPUG said:
TV revenue, sponsorship, match days etc. It's not just prize money.
I do appreciate that, but Man Utd "only" got €38m last year when they didn't progress from the group stages. Given Man Utd's superior commercial appeal I can't see how they made €38m and others are making £50m for just qualifying. The money soon ramps up in later rounds especially when teams from the same country are knocked out.
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 31st May 14:14
I agree, it will vary greatly from club to club but CL is an order or magnitude greater than EL.
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