The Official Arsenal - 14 x FA Cup winners thread - Vol 4

[Sparkyhd]

Emery? He's awful, but I like him.

[StonedRollin]

Got to love the press because last week they (John Cross and Gary Neville amongst others) saying that AFC were in total disarray with the manager recruitment process with no clear candidate and nobody likely to be in place before the world cup. Then all weekend it's Arteta and now they are saying that the clubs has been talking to Emery for a few days. Utter cretins making a living writing clickbait articles without a clue.

Let's hope it gets confirmed by the club soon.

[Fittster]

Emery's away record for Sevilla (League Only)

66 Games, 17 Wins, 20 Draws, 29 Defeats. 86 GF 108 GA.

[tigerkoi]

StonedRollin said:

Got to love the press because last week they (John Cross and Gary Neville amongst others) saying that AFC were in total disarray with the manager recruitment process with no clear candidate and nobody likely to be in place before the world cup. Then all weekend it's Arteta and now they are saying that the clubs has been talking to Emery for a few days. Utter cretins making a living writing clickbait articles without a clue.

Let's hope it gets confirmed by the club soon.

Lots of people stealing a living writing and commentating about football. Why would anyone read what’s written in rags like the Mirror and the Sun and give it credence, I don’t know.

I mean in the main it’s not like the industry is stuffed with many educated, insightful, broad thinking journos who really study the game. It’s all faffing about, coffees in local cafes, trying to get an inside scoop from a janitor down at the training ground.

The only people who seem to know what really goes on in football circles, and not just the cloistered world of English football, are guys like Sid Lowe, Ken Early and Ed Malyon. Beyond them there are too many other thick chancers who just spin gossip without doing basic research. I mean, you’re the sporting director of a large club on the continent and lots of people talking about a potential trade you might do with a rich English club. Who would you likely talk to: Ken Early or John Cross? Do me a favour.

The guys on TV are no better. Great a player as Hoddle was, I find in bizarre listening to him rabbit on during a Champions League game. All he can say are things like “ooh what a pass he played.” Or “...he really split the defence with that through ball didn’t he?”. The more you listen the more you realise there’s next to no insight and he’s only aware of the names of the English based players. For a guy who’s lived in the game his whole life, who played abroad, his lack of awareness of who’s who beyond a marquee name like Mbappe is stunning. Considering it’s all he knows, football, you’d expect him to be an autodidact on who’s who and what’s what. Chancers galore in football.

[leglessAlex]

Glassman said:

Arteta to Everton would make more sense. I'll take that Emery fella.

Wait... Ornstein only put it up on his twitter a few hours ago... Did you see a report of it or was this an amazing guess?!

I don't know enough about him to make a judgement on whether this is a good appointment or not. That stat above about away wins with Sevilla doesn't make for great reading.

What's his defensive record like? What's his player improvement record like?

[Fittster]

tigerkoi said:

I do hope it’s Unai Emery. I made a bet with a friend recently that he was/should be in the running.

Arteta would be a mess. A complete ingenue and sorry I just can’t agree that because he played competently at central midfield - competently, not world-class or anything - that that rubberstamps his ability to make Xhaka and co recognise the ghastly holes in their game. I know Guardiola is en vogue at the moment, but I didn’t know spending 19 months following him around putting the cones out makes him automatically suited to what’s really a genuine transformational job.

At least with Emery there’s a guy who’s had recent success, helped teams punch above their spending weight, and then at PSG got valuable experience running a crèche for multimillionaire clowns like Alves and Neymar. Yes, he lost that battle, but it’s valuable experience. He won’t cost mega money like an Ancellotti, he hasn’t just been part of a winning system like Allegri where the extent of his exact input is debatable, he’s not a pain in the backside like Tuchel, and Simeone was a laughable pipe dream for anybody who studied the basic facts behind his situation, plus he’s up for a project not a vanity 2yr stint. He’s a good hybrid of hands on coach but can also do the major back office management ‘stuff’.

I do hope he’s the incoming appointment.

So a manager who has not been able to form a team from a group of world class players is ideally suited to build an Arsenal team that can challenge teams like Man City and Real Marid for league and champions league success? To win the big competitions you need big players is a cohesive team.

Being a successful plucky underdog a Seville in the Europa Cup is one thing but when given the resources to compete at the highest level he flopped. If you want to pick a manager from the French league at least go for Jardim.

[aeropilot]

Fittster said:

tigerkoi said:

I do hope it’s Unai Emery. I made a bet with a friend recently that he was/should be in the running.

Arteta would be a mess. A complete ingenue and sorry I just can’t agree that because he played competently at central midfield - competently, not world-class or anything - that that rubberstamps his ability to make Xhaka and co recognise the ghastly holes in their game. I know Guardiola is en vogue at the moment, but I didn’t know spending 19 months following him around putting the cones out makes him automatically suited to what’s really a genuine transformational job.

At least with Emery there’s a guy who’s had recent success, helped teams punch above their spending weight, and then at PSG got valuable experience running a crèche for multimillionaire clowns like Alves and Neymar. Yes, he lost that battle, but it’s valuable experience. He won’t cost mega money like an Ancellotti, he hasn’t just been part of a winning system like Allegri where the extent of his exact input is debatable, he’s not a pain in the backside like Tuchel, and Simeone was a laughable pipe dream for anybody who studied the basic facts behind his situation, plus he’s up for a project not a vanity 2yr stint. He’s a good hybrid of hands on coach but can also do the major back office management ‘stuff’.

I do hope he’s the incoming appointment.

So a manager who has not been able to form a team from a group of world class players is ideally suited to build an Arsenal team that can challenge teams like Man City and Real Marid for league and champions league success? To win the big competitions you need big players is a cohesive team.

Being a successful plucky underdog a Seville in the Europa Cup is one thing but when given the resources to compete at the highest level he flopped. If you want to pick a manager from the French league at least go for Jardim.

Yes, but he's probably not coming demanding a £200m warchest to rebuild the squad like other candidates were..........so, 'best of the rest' choice I suspect, not 'best choice'.
And his English is pretty poor by all accounts, so that should be interesting.

Well'll see soon enough.

[tigerkoi]

Fittster said:

So a manager who has not been able to form a team from a group of world class players is ideally suited to build an Arsenal team that can challenge teams like Man City and Real Marid for league and champions league success? To win the big competitions you need big players is a cohesive team.

Being a successful plucky underdog a Seville in the Europa Cup is one thing but when given the resources to compete at the highest level he flopped. If you want to pick a manager from the French league at least go for Jardim.

Not quite what I said. I make the point that at PSG he lost the battle with the super egos there. But that valuable experience he can only surely utilise when dealing with any other situations in the rest of his career.

Is it like anyone in life? You get a few bruises, you learn (hopefully) and you think what you might do differently in the scenario presented itself again. Anyway, I’d have to believe dealing with a Lacazette or an Ozil or Mustafi will be a walk in the park than managing an utterly toxic presence like Neymar. Life must contain the odd failure so you know what success really takes. I can only think the maelstrom that was PSG stands him in good stead for what is by comparison a pussycat of a club to handle. Arsenal is world away from the politics of places like Bayern and PSG.

Also recognise that pretty much for anyone the PSG gig at the time was a poisoned chalice. The club sign a guy for €200m+ who’s agitated his way out of Barca because let’s face it, he’s chasing the personal glory of a Ballon D’Or. You’ve got your Qatari paymasters who are super enamoured with their new Brazilian plaything and it’s unconscionable to them that you’re going to slap the bugger into line. Then you’ve got his sidekick Alves mooching around saying, “yeah, that’s how we roll, we’ll come and go as we please”. It’s frankly unmanageable at times dealing with that sort of player power when you haven’t got the ultimate sanction over them.

So look at the PSG story in the round. Jardim, yes, I think what he’s done at Monaco is excellent, but I’d argue that Emery has probably - through travails with Valencia, Seville, Spartak, he’s built up a pretty sound resume of interesting and tough gigs, and overall he shades (just) Jardim for all round experience.

Also, just being given the resources (money) isn’t the answer to football question. Mourinho has spent, what, hundreds of millions at United but to what end? His best work continues to be what he did at Porto and Inter. His 100 points at Madrid, anyone could do at the time. If the club is completely unstable and pulling in different directions with player factions all over the place, and big money buys that aren’t really yours, well, you can’t lay all the blame on him.

As for his prior gigs, his work at Valencia, three times third place behind the usual suspects is a better guide for his work, in my view. Time and again he’s pushed what he’s had further. Arsenal I think need that more. As everything points to belt straightening times and squeezing the juice out of what’s on ten roster.

[mylesmcd]

Hold on for a second. Arteta said no, that is why we got the second choice who said yes to every question asked.
Arteta wanted control over players bought AND sold. He had the balls to turn it down, which I respect, a lot.

What we need now is a little back bone, someone who can man manage the talent we have back into performing. Not a 'yes' man!

[StonedRollin]

mylesmcd said:

Hold on for a second. Arteta said no, that is why we got the second choice who said yes to every question asked.
Arteta wanted control over players bought AND sold. He had the balls to turn it down, which I respect, a lot.

What we need now is a little back bone, someone who can man manage the talent we have back into performing. Not a 'yes' man!

Whilst i wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying in principle, we really have no idea what Arteta, or anyone else for that matter, did or didn't say. The bottom line is that the media largely know nothing other than Chinese whispers and then factor them up on the infinity scale to make up a story. If Emery is confirmed by the club, and he hasn't yet, let's judge him on what he or whoever is appointed does next season and not perceptions that the media want us to believe.

[Nom de ploom]

I can't think of a single success story of a player taking a premier league club as their first managerial role and it working for long.

in that respect arteta would be a disaster for you it would end badly and you would be back where you are now. emery is a good choice proven european success and la liga experience whihc lets face it is a better style of football than the premier league.

not sure about all this bleating about where has he come from....no one had heard of a certain Arsene Wenger 22 years ago either...

[anonymous-user]

tigerkoi said:

Not quite what I said. I make the point that at PSG he lost the battle with the super egos there. But that valuable experience he can only surely utilise when dealing with any other situations in the rest of his career.

Is it like anyone in life? You get a few bruises, you learn (hopefully) and you think what you might do differently in the scenario presented itself again. Anyway, I’d have to believe dealing with a Lacazette or an Ozil or Mustafi will be a walk in the park than managing an utterly toxic presence like Neymar. Life must contain the odd failure so you know what success really takes. I can only think the maelstrom that was PSG stands him in good stead for what is by comparison a pussycat of a club to handle. Arsenal is world away from the politics of places like Bayern and PSG.

Also recognise that pretty much for anyone the PSG gig at the time was a poisoned chalice. The club sign a guy for €200m+ who’s agitated his way out of Barca because let’s face it, he’s chasing the personal glory of a Ballon D’Or. You’ve got your Qatari paymasters who are super enamoured with their new Brazilian plaything and it’s unconscionable to them that you’re going to slap the bugger into line. Then you’ve got his sidekick Alves mooching around saying, “yeah, that’s how we roll, we’ll come and go as we please”. It’s frankly unmanageable at times dealing with that sort of player power when you haven’t got the ultimate sanction over them.

So look at the PSG story in the round. Jardim, yes, I think what he’s done at Monaco is excellent, but I’d argue that Emery has probably - through travails with Valencia, Seville, Spartak, he’s built up a pretty sound resume of interesting and tough gigs, and overall he shades (just) Jardim for all round experience.

Also, just being given the resources (money) isn’t the answer to football question. Mourinho has spent, what, hundreds of millions at United but to what end? His best work continues to be what he did at Porto and Inter. His 100 points at Madrid, anyone could do at the time. If the club is completely unstable and pulling in different directions with player factions all over the place, and big money buys that aren’t really yours, well, you can’t lay all the blame on him.

As for his prior gigs, his work at Valencia, three times third place behind the usual suspects is a better guide for his work, in my view. Time and again he’s pushed what he’s had further. Arsenal I think need that more. As everything points to belt straightening times and squeezing the juice out of what’s on ten roster.

Great post, agree entirely.

I'm very pleased with his appointment, the Dick Emery references are wearing thin very quickly though.

[TEKNOPUG]

Coin Slot. said:

Great post, agree entirely.

I'm very pleased with his appointment, the Dick Emery references are wearing thin very quickly though.

I agree.

Here he is at London Colney, ready to meet the players

[Fittster]

tigerkoi said:

Fittster said:

So a manager who has not been able to form a team from a group of world class players is ideally suited to build an Arsenal team that can challenge teams like Man City and Real Marid for league and champions league success? To win the big competitions you need big players is a cohesive team.

Being a successful plucky underdog a Seville in the Europa Cup is one thing but when given the resources to compete at the highest level he flopped. If you want to pick a manager from the French league at least go for Jardim.

Not quite what I said. I make the point that at PSG he lost the battle with the super egos there. But that valuable experience he can only surely utilise when dealing with any other situations in the rest of his career.

Is it like anyone in life? You get a few bruises, you learn (hopefully) and you think what you might do differently in the scenario presented itself again. Anyway, I’d have to believe dealing with a Lacazette or an Ozil or Mustafi will be a walk in the park than managing an utterly toxic presence like Neymar. Life must contain the odd failure so you know what success really takes. I can only think the maelstrom that was PSG stands him in good stead for what is by comparison a pussycat of a club to handle. Arsenal is world away from the politics of places like Bayern and PSG.

Also recognise that pretty much for anyone the PSG gig at the time was a poisoned chalice. The club sign a guy for €200m+ who’s agitated his way out of Barca because let’s face it, he’s chasing the personal glory of a Ballon D’Or. You’ve got your Qatari paymasters who are super enamoured with their new Brazilian plaything and it’s unconscionable to them that you’re going to slap the bugger into line. Then you’ve got his sidekick Alves mooching around saying, “yeah, that’s how we roll, we’ll come and go as we please”. It’s frankly unmanageable at times dealing with that sort of player power when you haven’t got the ultimate sanction over them.

So look at the PSG story in the round. Jardim, yes, I think what he’s done at Monaco is excellent, but I’d argue that Emery has probably - through travails with Valencia, Seville, Spartak, he’s built up a pretty sound resume of interesting and tough gigs, and overall he shades (just) Jardim for all round experience.

Also, just being given the resources (money) isn’t the answer to football question. Mourinho has spent, what, hundreds of millions at United but to what end? His best work continues to be what he did at Porto and Inter. His 100 points at Madrid, anyone could do at the time. If the club is completely unstable and pulling in different directions with player factions all over the place, and big money buys that aren’t really yours, well, you can’t lay all the blame on him.

As for his prior gigs, his work at Valencia, three times third place behind the usual suspects is a better guide for his work, in my view. Time and again he’s pushed what he’s had further. Arsenal I think need that more. As everything points to belt straightening times and squeezing the juice out of what’s on ten roster.

If you take a high level look at Arsenal’s finances.

• 6th Highest Revenue of any club (Ahead of PSG, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and Juventus.
• 8th Highest wage bill in the world.
• Arsenal were the club who made the most from paying fans. Uefa said their yield of £86.79 per spectator was the highest in Europe
• Manager’s salary £9m

There’s no stadium to pay for or debt to service, so let’s not have too much cutting the cloth to our means arguments when selecting a manager. Arsenal are one of the world’s richest clubs and the manager’s jobs is one of the most desirable in world football.

Let’s look at the candidates that have been available since Wenger’s position has become untenable

• Allegri
• Sarri
• Enrique
• Simeone
• Benitez
• Pochettino (For the bants, as the kids say)
• Sampaoli
• Martino
• Tuchel
• Jardim
• Rodgers

If you want a young manager with a big possible upside

• Nagelsmann
• Wicky
• Gallardo (This is PH)
• Howe
• Vieira
• Arteta

That’s off the top of my head, I’m sure that the Arsenal analytics department has analysed every manager working in a major league and presented a detailed list of candidates to the board. If you rank all the candidates is Emery first on the list?

So let’s have a quick look at Emry’s track record which was largely forged a Sevilla FC. We have those 3 Europa cup wins. But it’s not all sunshine.

League finishes

2012-2013 9th
2013-2014 5th
2014-2015 5th
2015-2016 7th

And after he left they finished 4th.

Now I don’t expect Sevilla to finish ahead of Real Madrid or Barcelona but his teams haven’t finished that high up the table.

Emery's away record for Sevilla (League Only) 66 Games, 17 Wins, 20 Draws, 29 Defeats. 86 GF 108 GA.

He’s failed to use the riches at his disposal at PSG to build a cohesive team. You think that he will have learnt from his failure to manage superstars with equally large egos but if football managers learnt from failure Pardew would be the most successful manager on the planet. You then mentioned that there are less egos in the Arsenal changing room but it’s noticeable you didn’t mention the club’s record signing Aubaneyang who has a track record of disruption.
Sometimes the stars align for a team and a manager, such as Leicester and Ranieri but that’s rather optimistic.

I see Emery as at best a safe pair of hands who should be able to get a top 4 finish and put together a decent cup run but not challenge for the Premier League or Champions League, basically the results seen during late era Wenger. Is that something to be satisfied with?

[aeropilot]

Fittster said:

Let’s look at the candidates that have been available since Wenger’s position has become untenable

• Allegri
• Sarri
• Enrique
• Simeone
• Benitez
• Pochettino (For the bants, as the kids say)
• Sampaoli
• Martino
• Tuchel
• Jardim
• Rodgers

You forgot Klopp.......

Many of us on here were writing about him as AW successor when were kept getting spanked by BD in the CL.....and even more so when it was clear he was leaving BD in 2015, but as AW had just won 2 FA Cups on the trot they gave him another bloody contract and Klopp when to the Scousers

[tigerkoi]

Fittster said:

If you take a high level look at Arsenal’s finances.

• 6th Highest Revenue of any club (Ahead of PSG, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and Juventus.
• 8th Highest wage bill in the world.
• Arsenal were the club who made the most from paying fans. Uefa said their yield of £86.79 per spectator was the highest in Europe
• Manager’s salary £9m

There’s no stadium to pay for or debt to service, so let’s not have too much cutting the cloth to our means arguments when selecting a manager. Arsenal are one of the world’s richest clubs and the manager’s jobs is one of the most desirable in world football.

Let’s look at the candidates that have been available since Wenger’s position has become untenable

• Allegri
• Sarri
• Enrique
• Simeone
• Benitez
• Pochettino (For the bants, as the kids say)
• Sampaoli
• Martino
• Tuchel
• Jardim
• Rodgers

If you want a young manager with a big possible upside

• Nagelsmann
• Wicky
• Gallardo (This is PH)
• Howe
• Vieira
• Arteta

That’s off the top of my head, I’m sure that the Arsenal analytics department has analysed every manager working in a major league and presented a detailed list of candidates to the board. If you rank all the candidates is Emery first on the list?

So let’s have a quick look at Emry’s track record which was largely forged a Sevilla FC. We have those 3 Europa cup wins. But it’s not all sunshine.

League finishes

2012-2013 9th
2013-2014 5th
2014-2015 5th
2015-2016 7th

And after he left they finished 4th.

Now I don’t expect Sevilla to finish ahead of Real Madrid or Barcelona but his teams haven’t finished that high up the table.

Emery's away record for Sevilla (League Only) 66 Games, 17 Wins, 20 Draws, 29 Defeats. 86 GF 108 GA.

He’s failed to use the riches at his disposal at PSG to build a cohesive team. You think that he will have learnt from his failure to manage superstars with equally large egos but if football managers learnt from failure Pardew would be the most successful manager on the planet. You then mentioned that there are less egos in the Arsenal changing room but it’s noticeable you didn’t mention the club’s record signing Aubaneyang who has a track record of disruption.
Sometimes the stars align for a team and a manager, such as Leicester and Ranieri but that’s rather optimistic.

I see Emery as at best a safe pair of hands who should be able to get a top 4 finish and put together a decent cup run but not challenge for the Premier League or Champions League, basically the results seen during late era Wenger. Is that something to be satisfied with?

Hi Fittster - there’s a lot of fair information/argument there so apologies if I don’t respond to all of it or miss anything in response...but it’s a good argument anyway and better than the other chores I’ve got to deal with

Surely you’d agree that even with the prima facie great finances of the club that you can’t just connect our income/revenue lines with the view that automatically makes the place one of the premier destinations for players or managers. Aside from the difference that it’s a place run for shareholders (mainly Kroenke) as compared to a plaything for sovereign wealth funds (PSG, Man City etc) or non-listed independent vehicles (Barca, Real Madrid etc), then yes the stadium might be paid up, but not every dollar in is geared to be spent on the club. It’s tough, but if fans don’t like it then become a tech billionaire or marry into an oil dynasty, buy the club and burn your cash. Kroenke and co aren’t in the business of indulging fans with all the clubs income going straight out again. It’s business.

Then there’s the other factor. Let’s say Gazidis and Kroenke say, yes, you want Lemar, or you want Ousmane Dembele, and the ticket price is €100m+, sure, fill your boots. Let’s say the money is all going on the team. Well, if you’re a player, what do you want?

For the sake of argument, we say, oohhh let’s get Gareth Bale. He’s unhappy at Madrid and we can afford his buyout fee, and after the Ozil contract we can prove we can pay £300k a week. Let’s get Bale. Well...if I lived in La Finca or La Moreleja, and I woke up each day with crisp blue skies, and for larger parts of the year with lovely sunshine, and my clubs training ground was the best in the world, and at the Bernabau each week there are 85k fans, and my wife has just had another little kid, and she’s settled in and likes shopping down Castellana.....why would I trade it in for a comparatively crap pile in Totteridge and the gray weather and rain. Let’s face it, there are other lifestyle factors that dictate that whatever money PL clubs can throw at players, that other destinations are just much more amenable.

Then the coaches. Allegra! What makes anyone think that people would give up a winning combination at Juventus for a challenging gig in North London? Simeone - he’s wedded to Athletico. It was the British press banging on about him being ideal. But did anyone analyse what his desires are? He wanted to move into the Wanda Metropolitano and he wants to beat the Barca/Real duopoly with everything at his disposal, there. He’s got his cheeky young girlfriend who prefers sunny Spain, not getting moped mugged in the U.K.! What’s this sense of fan entitlement that “we want Simeone, he will come”? Tuchel, Jardim...have won less than Emery in total. And Enrique? He wasn’t universally liked at Barca, failed miserably elsewhere, and I think history will point out that the winning (Messi) machine at the mega club Barca was just something he tinkered with. So what makes anyone think that he’d automatically be a great choice?

On Emery at PSG. He lost ground at PSG. But my original point was that the toxic atmosphere there is such that he just couldn’t have been successful there - comparatively. The place is a mess and failure is pretty much guaranteed for mostly anyone. So less about Emery and more about a dysfunctional organisation. There was talk about Ancelotti. A guy who’s probably by some measures the most successful manager out there. Well he got slung out of PSG and was considered a failure! Emery didn’t buy the squad he wanted there. It was bought for him and not necessarily in conjunction with his ideas on what was needed to succeed. That’s not a recipe for anyone to be successful in their job.

If - interesting Second Captains podcast on the topic just out - there was some breakaway or supplementary European super league, well if the rules were about having the top four clubs from each nation joining then would Arsenal automatically be admitted? Not sure. A player weighs these things up when deciding where they go.

Aubameyang. I don’t think the guy is much trouble at all. Yes there were flashy news items about his last few weeks at Dortmund, but frankly that’s just the MO these days when players want out. Apart from that, there were enough counters put out there by players and managers to state that actually they thought he was a good guy generally and they’d miss him. Transfers rarely tend to be slick and without emotion, but I wouldn’t read the trash that’s put out by the myopic British footballing press and take it as wrote. Nope.

Sure, on the surface we might have the income of the big boys. But firstly it’s doesn’t necessarily translate that we have the unmitigated spending powers and secondly it doesn’t automatically mean that’s where you want to be as a player or manager.

Thanks for the figures, and interesting information too. Thank you.

[Cheib]

Fittster said:

If you take a high level look at Arsenal’s finances.

• 6th Highest Revenue of any club (Ahead of PSG, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and Juventus.
• 8th Highest wage bill in the world.
• Arsenal were the club who made the most from paying fans. Uefa said their yield of £86.79 per spectator was the highest in Europe
• Manager’s salary £9m

There’s no stadium to pay for or debt to service, so let’s not have too much cutting the cloth to our means arguments when selecting a manager. Arsenal are one of the world’s richest clubs and the manager’s jobs is one of the most desirable in world football.

Small point of order....Arsenal have £200mil of debt. Without a doubt they are under achieving based on their wage bill though that's only really happened in the last two years. Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea all had high wage bills but Liverpool and (especially) Spurs are lower.

They're also small screwed on the wage bill as under current regulations they can only increase by a small single digit % because all the PL clubs agreed to cap on the % rise in wage bill when the new TV deal came in (to stop massive wage inflation). Other income doesn't count for the wage cap i.e. Commercial. But because Arsenal are relatively poor at growing commercial revenues that doesn't help them.

So basically if there's a budget of £50mil to buy players I am guessing there's not a massive slack in the wage bill. Wenger is still being paid for the next year so we basically are paying two managers salries. Santi and Per have left but others will need to go just to make room on the wage bill.

That's a long way of saying a lot of what a new manager will have to do is getting more out of the current squad.

[tigerkoi]

Cheib said:

Fittster said:

If you take a high level look at Arsenal’s finances.

• 6th Highest Revenue of any club (Ahead of PSG, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and Juventus.
• 8th Highest wage bill in the world.
• Arsenal were the club who made the most from paying fans. Uefa said their yield of £86.79 per spectator was the highest in Europe
• Manager’s salary £9m

There’s no stadium to pay for or debt to service, so let’s not have too much cutting the cloth to our means arguments when selecting a manager. Arsenal are one of the world’s richest clubs and the manager’s jobs is one of the most desirable in world football.

Small point of order....Arsenal have £200mil of debt. Without a doubt they are under achieving based on their wage bill though that's only really happened in the last two years. Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea all had high wage bills but Liverpool and (especially) Spurs are lower.

They're also small screwed on the wage bill as under current regulations they can only increase by a small single digit % because all the PL clubs agreed to cap on the % rise in wage bill when the new TV deal came in (to stop massive wage inflation). Other income doesn't count for the wage cap i.e. Commercial. But because Arsenal are relatively poor at growing commercial revenues that doesn't help them.

So basically if there's a budget of £50mil to buy players I am guessing there's not a massive slack in the wage bill. Wenger is still being paid for the next year so we basically are paying two managers salries. Santi and Per have left but others will need to go just to make room on the wage bill.

That's a long way of saying a lot of what a new manager will have to do is getting more out of the current squad.

Again, thanks for the info. Precious detail that in my opinion backs up the ‘belt tightening’ status a few think the club is in.

Is there any data out there on what the clubs general operating costs are, how much goes out just standing still?

Also great point about the clubs general ineffectiveness on the commercial/marketing side. Interesting talk about how massive this arm of the company is at Man U and whether it’s wagging the dog or not. When you hear of Barca playing (fee up front) exhibition games in SA during season, the money generated by an Ibrahimovic juggling the ball in front of LA fans when signed, pulling out of La Liga broadcasting rights for the UK, BTs overall financial readjustment.....the time that Sky money dictates all might not be eternal.

Interesting.

[Fittster]

tigerkoi said:

Fittster said:

If you take a high level look at Arsenal’s finances.

• 6th Highest Revenue of any club (Ahead of PSG, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and Juventus.
• 8th Highest wage bill in the world.
• Arsenal were the club who made the most from paying fans. Uefa said their yield of £86.79 per spectator was the highest in Europe
• Manager’s salary £9m

There’s no stadium to pay for or debt to service, so let’s not have too much cutting the cloth to our means arguments when selecting a manager. Arsenal are one of the world’s richest clubs and the manager’s jobs is one of the most desirable in world football.

Let’s look at the candidates that have been available since Wenger’s position has become untenable

• Allegri
• Sarri
• Enrique
• Simeone
• Benitez
• Pochettino (For the bants, as the kids say)
• Sampaoli
• Martino
• Tuchel
• Jardim
• Rodgers

If you want a young manager with a big possible upside

• Nagelsmann
• Wicky
• Gallardo (This is PH)
• Howe
• Vieira
• Arteta

That’s off the top of my head, I’m sure that the Arsenal analytics department has analysed every manager working in a major league and presented a detailed list of candidates to the board. If you rank all the candidates is Emery first on the list?

So let’s have a quick look at Emry’s track record which was largely forged a Sevilla FC. We have those 3 Europa cup wins. But it’s not all sunshine.

League finishes

2012-2013 9th
2013-2014 5th
2014-2015 5th
2015-2016 7th

And after he left they finished 4th.

Now I don’t expect Sevilla to finish ahead of Real Madrid or Barcelona but his teams haven’t finished that high up the table.

Emery's away record for Sevilla (League Only) 66 Games, 17 Wins, 20 Draws, 29 Defeats. 86 GF 108 GA.

He’s failed to use the riches at his disposal at PSG to build a cohesive team. You think that he will have learnt from his failure to manage superstars with equally large egos but if football managers learnt from failure Pardew would be the most successful manager on the planet. You then mentioned that there are less egos in the Arsenal changing room but it’s noticeable you didn’t mention the club’s record signing Aubaneyang who has a track record of disruption.
Sometimes the stars align for a team and a manager, such as Leicester and Ranieri but that’s rather optimistic.

I see Emery as at best a safe pair of hands who should be able to get a top 4 finish and put together a decent cup run but not challenge for the Premier League or Champions League, basically the results seen during late era Wenger. Is that something to be satisfied with?

Hi Fittster - there’s a lot of fair information/argument there so apologies if I don’t respond to all of it or miss anything in response...but it’s a good argument anyway and better than the other chores I’ve got to deal with

Surely you’d agree that even with the prima facie great finances of the club that you can’t just connect our income/revenue lines with the view that automatically makes the place one of the premier destinations for players or managers. Aside from the difference that it’s a place run for shareholders (mainly Kroenke) as compared to a plaything for sovereign wealth funds (PSG, Man City etc) or non-listed independent vehicles (Barca, Real Madrid etc), then yes the stadium might be paid up, but not every dollar in is geared to be spent on the club. It’s tough, but if fans don’t like it then become a tech billionaire or marry into an oil dynasty, buy the club and burn your cash. Kroenke and co aren’t in the business of indulging fans with all the clubs income going straight out again. It’s business.

Then there’s the other factor. Let’s say Gazidis and Kroenke say, yes, you want Lemar, or you want Ousmane Dembele, and the ticket price is €100m+, sure, fill your boots. Let’s say the money is all going on the team. Well, if you’re a player, what do you want?

For the sake of argument, we say, oohhh let’s get Gareth Bale. He’s unhappy at Madrid and we can afford his buyout fee, and after the Ozil contract we can prove we can pay £300k a week. Let’s get Bale. Well...if I lived in La Finca or La Moreleja, and I woke up each day with crisp blue skies, and for larger parts of the year with lovely sunshine, and my clubs training ground was the best in the world, and at the Bernabau each week there are 85k fans, and my wife has just had another little kid, and she’s settled in and likes shopping down Castellana.....why would I trade it in for a comparatively crap pile in Totteridge and the gray weather and rain. Let’s face it, there are other lifestyle factors that dictate that whatever money PL clubs can throw at players, that other destinations are just much more amenable.

Then the coaches. Allegra! What makes anyone think that people would give up a winning combination at Juventus for a challenging gig in North London? Simeone - he’s wedded to Athletico. It was the British press banging on about him being ideal. But did anyone analyse what his desires are? He wanted to move into the Wanda Metropolitano and he wants to beat the Barca/Real duopoly with everything at his disposal, there. He’s got his cheeky young girlfriend who prefers sunny Spain, not getting moped mugged in the U.K.! What’s this sense of fan entitlement that “we want Simeone, he will come”? Tuchel, Jardim...have won less than Emery in total. And Enrique? He wasn’t universally liked at Barca, failed miserably elsewhere, and I think history will point out that the winning (Messi) machine at the mega club Barca was just something he tinkered with. So what makes anyone think that he’d automatically be a great choice?

On Emery at PSG. He lost ground at PSG. But my original point was that the toxic atmosphere there is such that he just couldn’t have been successful there - comparatively. The place is a mess and failure is pretty much guaranteed for mostly anyone. So less about Emery and more about a dysfunctional organisation. There was talk about Ancelotti. A guy who’s probably by some measures the most successful manager out there. Well he got slung out of PSG and was considered a failure! Emery didn’t buy the squad he wanted there. It was bought for him and not necessarily in conjunction with his ideas on what was needed to succeed. That’s not a recipe for anyone to be successful in their job.

If - interesting Second Captains podcast on the topic just out - there was some breakaway or supplementary European super league, well if the rules were about having the top four clubs from each nation joining then would Arsenal automatically be admitted? Not sure. A player weighs these things up when deciding where they go.

Aubameyang. I don’t think the guy is much trouble at all. Yes there were flashy news items about his last few weeks at Dortmund, but frankly that’s just the MO these days when players want out. Apart from that, there were enough counters put out there by players and managers to state that actually they thought he was a good guy generally and they’d miss him. Transfers rarely tend to be slick and without emotion, but I wouldn’t read the trash that’s put out by the myopic British footballing press and take it as wrote. Nope.

Sure, on the surface we might have the income of the big boys. But firstly it’s doesn’t necessarily translate that we have the unmitigated spending powers and secondly it doesn’t automatically mean that’s where you want to be as a player or manager.

Thanks for the figures, and interesting information too. Thank you.

There’s a small group of teams whose spending is virtually unlimited Man City, Man United, PSG, Barcelona and maybe Chelsea (although things seem to be changing there and could change dramatically in the near future). After those teams its Arsenal. The cash is there if the board choose to spend it. More money than any Italian or German club, more money than Liverpool or Spurs.

No matter how much badge kissing I witness I believe players and managers are ultimately mercenaries and can be poached from a rival if a big enough cheque is waved about (I’m no hypocrite, if a rival firm wants to offer me a big pay rise I’m off).

Looking at the number of billionaires who choose to make London their home it must have an appeal that offsets the weather. Stick a large salary under a successful manager currently working at German, Italian or Spanish club and their agent will soon be placing stories in the local media stating how their ambitions are being stifled by the board. Sure, there will be examples who aren’t attracted by filthy lucre but many will be. I believe Wenger has historically been one of the most highly rewarded coaches, as the coach/manager is such an important element of a successful team I don’t see why his successor shouldn’t be at least equally well paid.

Historically the argument has always been Wenger was to stubborn to spend big money, preferring to bring through his projects. Now it’s all changed and the money simply isn’t there for the squad. Have Arsenal admitted they have become a north London version of West Ham, where there’s little interest in winning competitions as long as the owners get their slice of the cake? If that’s the case I don’t see why the ugly scenes that we have witnessed as the London Olympic stadium won’t be repeated at the Emirates.

As for Emery not being able to choose his squad at PSG, well the new management model at Arsenal is also going to limit his hand when it comes to transfers.

There are plenty of blackmarks around Emery.

1. Unable to change the atmosphere within the PSG dressing room.
2. Never being able to get past the last 16 in the Champions league at PSG (I hear they weren’t able to beat Arsenal!)
3. I don’t think Sevilla ever qualified for the Champions league via the league.
4. Sevilla’s poor away record.
5. Emery’s Valencia came 3rd on 3 occasions. Benítez and Koeman both won La Liga.

If the board choose it, Arsenal are one of the big boys, there’s only a tiny handful of clubs with more financial clout. Money counts when recruiting talent, even if that talent is under contract.

As for Emery I see him as a safe pair of hands who will probably keep the money rolling in, but I think is unlikely to make serious league or CL challenge. Are Arsenal fans really happy to join the also rans like Spurs?

[Fittster]

tigerkoi said:

Again, thanks for the info. Precious detail that in my opinion backs up the ‘belt tightening’ status a few think the club is in.

Is there any data out there on what the clubs general operating costs are, how much goes out just standing still?

Also great point about the clubs general ineffectiveness on the commercial/marketing side. Interesting talk about how massive this arm of the company is at Man U and whether it’s wagging the dog or not. When you hear of Barca playing (fee up front) exhibition games in SA during season, the money generated by an Ibrahimovic juggling the ball in front of LA fans when signed, pulling out of La Liga broadcasting rights for the UK, BTs overall financial readjustment.....the time that Sky money dictates all might not be eternal.

Interesting.

I've always found the swiss ramble blog/twitter account the most useful resource for details about club finances.

https://twitter.com/swissramble/status/91476060880...

(My take, there's loads of cash about).