The Official Arsenal - 14 x FA Cup winners thread - Vol 4

[StonedRollin]

Fittster said:

.

There are plenty of blackmarks around Emery.

1. Unable to change the atmosphere within the PSG dressing room.
2. Never being able to get past the last 16 in the Champions league at PSG (I hear they weren’t able to beat Arsenal!)
3. I don’t think Sevilla ever qualified for the Champions league via the league.
4. Sevilla’s poor away record.
5. Emery’s Valencia came 3rd on 3 occasions. Benítez and Koeman both won La Liga.

I cannot comment on all the above but with regards to the PSG in UEFA CL bit lets not forget they were basically done in the 6-1 game against Barca with a couple of dodgy pens thanks to Barca divers and a quite seriously corrupt ref*! The following year they lost to Real Madrid so that's pretty rough to call a black mark.

• allegedly

[aeropilot]

Fittster said:

As for Emery I see him as a safe pair of hands who will probably keep the money rolling in, but I think is unlikely to make serious league or CL challenge. Are Arsenal fans really happy to join the also rans like Spurs?

Many have been quite happy with that for the past 4/5 seasons because in their eyes AW could do no wrong, so I doubt things will change for them.

Those that aren't happy about it, and haven't been, will just have to get used to it, because the simple fact is, that is the reality of the future (for next 3-5 years at least)

[Fittster]

StonedRollin said:

Fittster said:

.

There are plenty of blackmarks around Emery.

1. Unable to change the atmosphere within the PSG dressing room.
2. Never being able to get past the last 16 in the Champions league at PSG (I hear they weren’t able to beat Arsenal!)
3. I don’t think Sevilla ever qualified for the Champions league via the league.
4. Sevilla’s poor away record.
5. Emery’s Valencia came 3rd on 3 occasions. Benítez and Koeman both won La Liga.

I cannot comment on all the above but with regards to the PSG in UEFA CL bit lets not forget they were basically done in the 6-1 game against Barca with a couple of dodgy pens thanks to Barca divers and a quite seriously corrupt ref*! The following year they lost to Real Madrid so that's pretty rough to call a black mark.

• allegedly

I’ll give you the Barca result, although shipping 6 goals even with the usual Barca favouritism from the ref isn’t great. As for the Real Madrid loss, that would be the Real Madrid side, who came second in their group to Spurs. They were a perfectly beatable side.

[StonedRollin]

Fittster said:

I’ll give you the Barca result, although shipping 6 goals even with the usual Barca favouritism from the ref isn’t great. As for the Real Madrid loss, that would be the Real Madrid side, who came second in their group to Spurs. They were a perfectly beatable side.

I'll give you that but you are dismissing the point that Real had a rank awful first third of the season and could argue that Spuds got them at the best time and they have improved since. I'm sure Juventus and Bayern Munich didn't dismiss them as a perfectly beatable side and neither of those clubs could beat them.

[cbmotorsport]

Ok, he's not the powerhouse that a lot of people wanted, and he's never likely to be Mr Arsenal, but he will do quite a good job of being Mr Right Now I reckon. A good pair of hands to steady the ship, and who knows, he may get a tune out of the current players and lift the squad to better things.

I also hear a rumour that we may be recruiting an ex player as his number 2, which would be good. DB10 might be a good shout?

[tigerkoi]

Fittster said:

There’s a small group of teams whose spending is virtually unlimited Man City, Man United, PSG, Barcelona and maybe Chelsea (although things seem to be changing there and could change dramatically in the near future). After those teams its Arsenal. The cash is there if the board choose to spend it. More money than any Italian or German club, more money than Liverpool or Spurs.

No matter how much badge kissing I witness I believe players and managers are ultimately mercenaries and can be poached from a rival if a big enough cheque is waved about (I’m no hypocrite, if a rival firm wants to offer me a big pay rise I’m off).

Looking at the number of billionaires who choose to make London their home it must have an appeal that offsets the weather. Stick a large salary under a successful manager currently working at German, Italian or Spanish club and their agent will soon be placing stories in the local media stating how their ambitions are being stifled by the board. Sure, there will be examples who aren’t attracted by filthy lucre but many will be. I believe Wenger has historically been one of the most highly rewarded coaches, as the coach/manager is such an important element of a successful team I don’t see why his successor shouldn’t be at least equally well paid.

Historically the argument has always been Wenger was to stubborn to spend big money, preferring to bring through his projects. Now it’s all changed and the money simply isn’t there for the squad. Have Arsenal admitted they have become a north London version of West Ham, where there’s little interest in winning competitions as long as the owners get their slice of the cake? If that’s the case I don’t see why the ugly scenes that we have witnessed as the London Olympic stadium won’t be repeated at the Emirates.

As for Emery not being able to choose his squad at PSG, well the new management model at Arsenal is also going to limit his hand when it comes to transfers.

There are plenty of blackmarks around Emery.

1. Unable to change the atmosphere within the PSG dressing room.
2. Never being able to get past the last 16 in the Champions league at PSG (I hear they weren’t able to beat Arsenal!)
3. I don’t think Sevilla ever qualified for the Champions league via the league.
4. Sevilla’s poor away record.
5. Emery’s Valencia came 3rd on 3 occasions. Benítez and Koeman both won La Liga.

If the board choose it, Arsenal are one of the big boys, there’s only a tiny handful of clubs with more financial clout. Money counts when recruiting talent, even if that talent is under contract.

As for Emery I see him as a safe pair of hands who will probably keep the money rolling in, but I think is unlikely to make serious league or CL challenge. Are Arsenal fans really happy to join the also rans like Spurs?

I think when comparing Emery’s time at PSG with what maybe his potential situation at Arsenal in view of player transactions there’s a difference in how it’s done. The Qataris buying Neymar (trouble) and just telling Emery to get on with it without listening to tactical views, where his parameters lay in discipline etc is hopefully/surely different to a Gazidis model where he gets the key guys together and they sit round a table and pro & con the merits of a player purchase, then as a proper executive and CEO, Gazidis makes the decision. Everyone on board. The latter model can work in a harmonious setup where key inputs are listened to and all aspects considered. I think most good, intelligent people can work like that.

But I’m not trying to convince you of why the situation for Emery at PSG deserves more slack, but I think there’s enough evidence to show the setup there is so bad that no one has much chance of ultimate success! So that ‘black mark’ as such should be a more nuanced consideration in my view....

Very fair to say Benitez winning at Valencia and reflecting on Emery but there are so many variables associated with that flat point that I don’t think it’s directly relative. You’ve got to take in the relative strengths, peaks and troughs of other clubs, the particular era etc. There’s more to consider in and around it. Look at Madrid this season. Didn’t even show up in the league until Xmas - and that distorted relative performances of clubs around them.

I do hope Emery is the guy. That’s not to say he’s the ‘second coming’. Rather I don’t think any manager is. They all experience success and failure and the biggest challenge is to know when you’re capturing them on the rise. I don’t for instance sign up to the view that Guardiola is a genius or anything nor has Mourinho proved that he’s always the ‘Special One’. Pocchetino in my view is overrated and looks elsewhere for where improvements can be made overlooking his own decision making at times. But for the challenge ahead, the variety of financial constrictions that seem to be there (Cheibs detail), then a think a smart decision by a well run company would look at this (Emery) being a very good option.

Nothings guaranteed but some of the more pragmatic points seem to get lost when emotional fans demanding things for “their club” don’t take in what’s needed to hire the right person and ensure the right fit. Football has this weird intersection where fantasy and reality weave around each other. Or another way of looking at it - most clubs are just basket case vehicles acting as lightning rods for the desires of fantasist businessmen and frothy fans, whereas Arsenal is trying to be run as you would a proper company.

I hate the idea of a West Ham scenario at the Emirates and the thought of Spurs making any further ground gives me the shivers but to be top dogs again will need more than a marquee name in the dugout, it’ll need an infrastructure reboot. The best organisations are geared top to bottom for success. A silver bullet manager rarely works for a multinational conglomerate. And throwing money at things doesn’t always solve problems. But the right people in the right format tends to drive breakout economics & outperformance.

[tigerkoi]

Fittster said:

I've always found the swiss ramble blog/twitter account the most useful resource for details about club finances.

https://twitter.com/swissramble/status/91476060880...

(My take, there's loads of cash about).

Excellent! I’ll take a good look at this.
Thanks

[m3sye]

Flitster

You say this guy is a safe pair of hands who should get you top 4
Who are you removing out of there? On the rumoured 50m spend ?

[Fittster]

m3sye said:

Flitster

You say this guy is a safe pair of hands who should get you top 4
Who are you removing out of there? On the rumoured 50m spend ?

I would hope the figure of £50 million is incorrect, as has been much of the speculation on the next manager. With the resources available at Arsenal I think it’s a big ask to finish above Man City or United however routinely finishing above Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs should be expected. Spending at similar percentage of revenue to those clubs should give the manager sufficient funds to build a stronger squad than they have. It’s dependent on a few factors.

1. A good manager
2. A good analytics / scouting department which is listened to. It’s public knowledge that Arsenal bought the StatDNA firm a number of years ago. How good there analysis is and how much it’s listened to are unknown.
3. A constructive relationship between the manager, director of football and the board.

I don’t think that is asking too much. Even if you accept that Arsenal are primarily a business not a wealthy man’s toy they are a bigger business by most financial metrics than the non-Manchester clubs.

[tigerkoi]

Fittster, that SwissRamble stuff is very informative, thanks. My interpretation of his data partly aligns with Chieb that the commercial/retail element needs to really get in gear.

TV money could go either way in the next few years, but trends and other macro things point to even more squeezing by the likes of Sky, if people like Facebook/Amazon etc aren’t yet sure on plugging that gap left by BT. Matchday income is solid. So to immune the club has to really push on the marketing front to 1st) cover any ups and downs and then 2nd) to stay competitive with the really big teams.

If £50m is the magic number and some bodies are required to help move things around I see the following:

Lucas Perez - he’s 29, Deportiva have just been relegated, he needs a reboot. And even if Emery may want him to stay to play backup to Aubameyang/Lacazette he might not bite as it’s dead time on the bench whereas he needs it play - ~£10m

Welbeck - he’s back in the England squad, young enough to cash in on, but too raw to spend more time trying to coach him at Colney into something he’s not and never will be. With new clubs coming up and spending to stay up, he might be good collateral - ~£20m

Bellerin - he’s too porous in the primary function of his job and his pace doesn’t negate his lack of physicality. Yes he could be coached further but the full back in this era is a fulcrum role and I’m not sure he’s worth the overall effort. For what he could be sold at you could replace with a canny veteran at half the fee. Or work on someone ready to step up from the youth setup - ~£30m

Ramsey - it depends on what the incoming managers strategy to play is. But also whether or not the player is keen to resign or not with the contract time dwindling. My gut feel is that Ozil will be tasked to be *the playmaker* and that means that he has to be surrounded with more water carriers. Ramsey’s blend of tricking around in the final third has been outstanding at times but the overall balance of the first XI is lost when they both play. It’s a big call, but bigger players have left the club and for his talent he’s not a Fabregas for instance - ~£45m+

Forget Wilshere, dead wood. Xhaka will be birched to extract common sense out of deeper potential. Monreal will play from the bench more as Kolasinac is given more time. Holding, Chambers, coached and then sold in a couple of years. Koscielney is done, so nothing going on there. Mustafi on last orders. Ospina, Cech unchanged for now. Mainland-Niles and the other young ones, more time and played in the League Cup and minor games. And the club go recruiting for three more players spread across defence and the midfield.

[leglessAlex]

I think this is a good article, it's not too big on detail but it's quite positive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44204959

[anonymous-user]

Cheib said:

Wenger is still being paid for the next year so we basically are paying two managers salries.

What a fk up giving Wenger a two year contract when the team was underperforming and then have a rinse and repeat season and then decide to sack him.

[aeropilot]

leglessAlex said:

I think this is a good article, it's not too big on detail but it's quite positive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44204959

Positives there if all true.....could be the right man for the job.

I see it's all but confirmed as he's posted on his own website that's he's pleased to be part of the Arsenal family, which ahead of an official announcement from the club is a bit strange, so hope he hasn't pissed off the board already.........!!

[cbmotorsport]

It's official then. Emery's appointment has just gone up on Arsenal.com.

Interesting that they refer to him as 'our new head coach' and not manager.

[Cupramax]

Good, we need to make a positive start after the World Cup and any recruitment done and dusted ASAP. Let’s hope he’s the right man and doesn’t end up doing a Moyes.

[Byker28i]

cbmotorsport said:

It's official then. Emery's appointment has just gone up on Arsenal.com.

Interesting that they refer to him as 'our new head coach' and not manager.

Reflects his salary and influence? No control in player buying and selling?

[aeropilot]

cbmotorsport said:

Interesting that they refer to him as 'our new head coach' and not manager.

I think that was a given with the new appointments made last year in readiness for the post Wenger era.

[cbmotorsport]

Yes of course, but they're just very obvious about it. Line drawing in the sand.

[Cheib]

tigerkoi said:

Fittster, that SwissRamble stuff is very informative, thanks. My interpretation of his data partly aligns with Chieb that the commercial/retail element needs to really get in gear.

TV money could go either way in the next few years, but trends and other macro things point to even more squeezing by the likes of Sky, if people like Facebook/Amazon etc aren’t yet sure on plugging that gap left by BT. Matchday income is solid. So to immune the club has to really push on the marketing front to 1st) cover any ups and downs and then 2nd) to stay competitive with the really big teams.

If £50m is the magic number and some bodies are required to help move things around I see the following:

Lucas Perez - he’s 29, Deportiva have just been relegated, he needs a reboot. And even if Emery may want him to stay to play backup to Aubameyang/Lacazette he might not bite as it’s dead time on the bench whereas he needs it play - ~£10m

Welbeck - he’s back in the England squad, young enough to cash in on, but too raw to spend more time trying to coach him at Colney into something he’s not and never will be. With new clubs coming up and spending to stay up, he might be good collateral - ~£20m

Bellerin - he’s too porous in the primary function of his job and his pace doesn’t negate his lack of physicality. Yes he could be coached further but the full back in this era is a fulcrum role and I’m not sure he’s worth the overall effort. For what he could be sold at you could replace with a canny veteran at half the fee. Or work on someone ready to step up from the youth setup - ~£30m

Ramsey - it depends on what the incoming managers strategy to play is. But also whether or not the player is keen to resign or not with the contract time dwindling. My gut feel is that Ozil will be tasked to be *the playmaker* and that means that he has to be surrounded with more water carriers. Ramsey’s blend of tricking around in the final third has been outstanding at times but the overall balance of the first XI is lost when they both play. It’s a big call, but bigger players have left the club and for his talent he’s not a Fabregas for instance - ~£45m+

Forget Wilshere, dead wood. Xhaka will be birched to extract common sense out of deeper potential. Monreal will play from the bench more as Kolasinac is given more time. Holding, Chambers, coached and then sold in a couple of years. Koscielney is done, so nothing going on there. Mustafi on last orders. Ospina, Cech unchanged for now. Mainland-Niles and the other young ones, more time and played in the League Cup and minor games. And the club go recruiting for three more players spread across defence and the midfield.

I'll beg to differ on a few of those, especailly Bellerin and Xhaka. I think both can be much better players than they currently are and are victims as much of the lack of system that Arsenal had and also what I think has been a huge issues over the alst few years. Wenger lost the ability to really develop players. If you look at the current squad I think the following could be improved and have a "ceiling" above what we currently get from them.

Bellerin
Mustafi
Holding
Chambers
Kolasinac
Mavropanos
Elneny
Maitland-Niles (he's definitely progressed but clearly has a lot of potential)
Ozil (sounds strange including a World Cup winner but we can definitely get more out of him)
Xhaka
Lacazette
Iwobi

Ramsey is a player who like Ozil because of their talent have been allowed to play however they want....I'd say Wenger indulged them almost in desperation to keep them happy. I'd say it's 50/50 whether Ramsey stays...if he leaves I reckon it'll be for big money and I think that may happen to give a bigger budget elsewhere for squad strengthening.

As far as Emery goes I am not sure you can really judge him on PSG....the manager there as they are at Barca and Real Madrid are almost incidental to the teams success. When your star £200mil player has a directly line to the club owners who will pander to his every need how on earth can a manager really manage that squad ?

What Emery does have is a track record of developing youth and having their teams playing in an organised and structured way. I think that's probably just what Arsenal need right now....there's no reason why with a couple of additions to this squad allied to the development of what we already have we can't be a lot more competitive than we have been.

[jammy-git]

Byker28i said:

cbmotorsport said:

It's official then. Emery's appointment has just gone up on Arsenal.com.

Interesting that they refer to him as 'our new head coach' and not manager.

Reflects his salary and influence? No control in player buying and selling?

Probably more that it reflects the new management structure that's been put in place this season?