The Official Manchester United Thread [Vol 6]
Discussion
jammy-git said:
Blib said:
Mourihno looks tired and frustrated. He's not himself. You'd better have a good January window, or you could end up mid table.
I remember the many years when you were rubbish, you know.
I honestly don't think he can cope with the intensity of the Premier League any more. Either that or he needs to reinvent himself and I think he's too arrogant and stubborn to do so.I remember the many years when you were rubbish, you know.
Going to make interesting viewing over the next couple of months.....
Players should take their lead from the manager, even seasoned pros like Rooney and Ibrahimovic. But the manager is a sulky, easily dislikeable individual with a chip on his shoulder ... so it's no wonder the players don't seem that happy. If Utd had scored with five mins to go under old whiskey nose, there would have been three players into the net to get the ball back and get on with it. Rooney turned almost apologetically (he was to far out to go get it himself of course, it was a great shot!) and just walked back. The season has taken its toll on some of them already. And I don't think SAF threw any players under the old bus did he, ever? Maureen makes a point of doing it ... and the pre-match prep and motivation is down to him, they're not going to all go on there naturally and do it, they're just not, they're not the Utd characters of old.
Perry Groves laid into your right back this morning. He said that the player failed to sprint at full pace once during the game. He went on to say the old Jose would have subbed him off asap for not giving 100%. He spoke of him doing just that to Joe Cole once at Chelsea. Even though Cole had scored during the game.
uk66fastback said:
Players should take their lead from the manager, even seasoned pros like Rooney and Ibrahimovic.
Yes, they should. At the same time though they are professionals and should at least be able to motivate themselves to put in an effort - and if they can't then they shouldn't be surprised to be called out on it. If they don't like it then putting in an effort might be a good idea. Of course that's simplistic and could well backfire (as JM knows from Chelsea), but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. Mollycoddling the players over the last 3 seasons by putting all the blame on the managers hasn't really worked. So long as Ed and the Club are prepared to back Jose, publically and in front of the players directly, it will work out.
We are still in the first stage of Mou's task now - it's only just November - he needs to be identifying the 'rotten eggs' in terms of ambition and effort and making plans to ship them out and replace.
In the meantime we need to try and support them as much as we can, in the hope that we can at least have a run at CL places. We have the core of a good squad here, its just fitting in the pieces around that until Jan / next summer.
franki68 said:
he's got 3 years worth of bad management to undo,this cannot be fixed overnight.
If you're a abu then have your fun.If you are a red,get behind the team and stop acting like glory hunting cock suckers.
+1. If you're a abu then have your fun.If you are a red,get behind the team and stop acting like glory hunting cock suckers.
And I'd go further to say that any player that doesn't want to give 100% to play for the team and whilst playing for the team, can also @@@@ &&&
Edited by Alpinestars on Friday 4th November 14:04
franki68 said:
he's got 3 years worth of bad management to undo,this cannot be fixed overnight.
If you're a abu then have your fun.If you are a red,get behind the team and stop acting like glory hunting cock suckers.
I can't see how anything done 2-3 years ago has much of an effect on how things are going now.If you're a abu then have your fun.If you are a red,get behind the team and stop acting like glory hunting cock suckers.
You're supposed to have one of the best managers in the World, you have what are supposed to be three of the best players in the World in DDG, Ibra and Pogba, you have some of the best young talent in Martial, Rashford, Bailly, Shaw, etc.
When Klopp came to LFC, despite us being woeful for a season and a half, it took of a month before you could see signs of improvement. Koeman has shown signs of improvement at Everton quicker than Jose at Utd, with a lesser team. Same with Conte at Chelsea and Pep at City - similar issues with squad imbalance but both managers came in, addressed positions that needed to be addressed and you can clearly now see signs of their training methods and playing style in how their teams play.
You just get the sense that with Utd, it's the marketing department running the transfers and now Jose has been left with this imbalanced squad that he doesn't know how to get the best out of. I think the problems with Utd run right from the top.
jammy-git said:
You just get the sense that with Utd, it's the marketing department running the transfers and now Jose has been left with this imbalanced squad that he doesn't know how to get the best out of. I think the problems with Utd run right from the top.
Imbalanced squad definitely, but when you look at our signings since SAF I'm not sure how many you can point at the marketing department:Fellaini
Mata
Shaw
Di Maria
Falcao
Schneiderlin
Herrera
Darmian
Depay
Martial
Schweinsteiger
Bailly
Pogba
Ibrahimovic
Mkhitaryan
It is true that there is a marketing need for a player to take over that role from Rooney - and that will have been a factor in the price paid for Pogba - but to suggest it's the only reason is pretty misleading.
When I look at that list all I see is a lack of width and coherent strategy - the latter not surprising with no overarching DoF and 3 managers in 4 seasons.
jammy-git said:
I can't see how anything done 2-3 years ago has much of an effect on how things are going now.
You're supposed to have one of the best managers in the World, you have what are supposed to be three of the best players in the World in DDG, Ibra and Pogba, you have some of the best young talent in Martial, Rashford, Bailly, Shaw, etc.
When Klopp came to LFC, despite us being woeful for a season and a half, it took of a month before you could see signs of improvement. Koeman has shown signs of improvement at Everton quicker than Jose at Utd, with a lesser team. Same with Conte at Chelsea and Pep at City - similar issues with squad imbalance but both managers came in, addressed positions that needed to be addressed and you can clearly now see signs of their training methods and playing style in how their teams play.
You just get the sense that with Utd, it's the marketing department running the transfers and now Jose has been left with this imbalanced squad that he doesn't know how to get the best out of. I think the problems with Utd run right from the top.
It stretches back further than 3-4 years.World class players were replaced with mediocracy,players confidences were destroyed by moyes and LVG (there's plenty of stuff around on the net about some of the backgorund stuff that went on with these managers.You're supposed to have one of the best managers in the World, you have what are supposed to be three of the best players in the World in DDG, Ibra and Pogba, you have some of the best young talent in Martial, Rashford, Bailly, Shaw, etc.
When Klopp came to LFC, despite us being woeful for a season and a half, it took of a month before you could see signs of improvement. Koeman has shown signs of improvement at Everton quicker than Jose at Utd, with a lesser team. Same with Conte at Chelsea and Pep at City - similar issues with squad imbalance but both managers came in, addressed positions that needed to be addressed and you can clearly now see signs of their training methods and playing style in how their teams play.
You just get the sense that with Utd, it's the marketing department running the transfers and now Jose has been left with this imbalanced squad that he doesn't know how to get the best out of. I think the problems with Utd run right from the top.
Rooney has been in decline for 4 years ,and should have been sold ...but was made captain and undroppable under moyes and lvg despite his level dropping below that of sunday league player.
No manager can account for Ibra missing the sort of chances he has been missing,nor for some of the defensive mistakes.It really doesnt matter what tactics you play in these instances.
Fergy Used to buy players based on character as much as anything else.LVG god rid of any of the characters from the team.United go behind now,I have no confidence at all they will get back into it.With fergy you knew they would because of the character of the players.
I watched united when fergy first arrived and we were utter s
t for 4 years ,it took him several attempts to get the right chemistry.franki68 said:
It stretches back further than 3-4 years.World class players were replaced with mediocracy,players confidences were destroyed by moyes and LVG (there's plenty of stuff around on the net about some of the backgorund stuff that went on with these managers.
I agree that there have been poor decisions for quite some time, and I'd say that even stretches back a couple of years during Fergy's reign. However I would argue that none of these things are insurmountable with a manager that has a clear vision and knows what he's doing.Also, a players confidence can be found within weeks, just look at half the Chelsea squad and players like Sterling at City. Use them in the right way and the confidence comes flooding back, very quickly.
franki68 said:
No manager can account for Ibra missing the sort of chances he has been missing,nor for some of the defensive mistakes.It really doesnt matter what tactics you play in these instances.
But it's exactly the managers job to work defensive mistakes out of a team - though I think a lot of individual errors are down to confidence again.franki68 said:
Fergy Used to buy players based on character as much as anything else.LVG god rid of any of the characters from the team.United go behind now,I have no confidence at all they will get back into it.With fergy you knew they would because of the character of the players.
I watched united when fergy first arrived and we were utter st for 4 years ,it took him several attempts to get the right chemistry.
I'm not sure I buy this. The same was said about BR at LFC, that he got rid of all the strong willed characters. A few months into Klopp's tenure and, after beating you guys, we put in one of the best comebacks against BVB since Istanbul. You've got players like Pogba, Ibra, Mata, Rooney and DDG that have played at the top for a while now and know how to win things. You've also got young talent like Rashford and Martial who should be playing without fear or pressure.I watched united when fergy first arrived and we were utter s
t for 4 years ,it took him several attempts to get the right chemistry.There's not a lot wrong with your analysis Jammy-Git, but the suspicion is that it's not just a lack of confidence that's the problem (if only it were).
We have had years now of supposedly good players sometimes putting in good performances then sometimes very very bad, then often just mediocre. It smacks of there being more wrong than confidence - it's lasting too long. It feels there is just a bad mentality now, full stop. That takes longer to cure because it quite likely involves personnel changes too.
There's an interesting (but take with a pinch of salt) article here along the same lines:
http://www.theunitedpages.com/why-firemanmou/
We'd love it to be done quickly, of course, but it's not likely. Not for Mou, not for Kloppy, not for Guardiola. It's bigger than that.
I almost think not being close to CL come December could actually be a blessing. It will make it easier for Mou to move a few on in Jan without having to worry about it damaging CL hopes
We have had years now of supposedly good players sometimes putting in good performances then sometimes very very bad, then often just mediocre. It smacks of there being more wrong than confidence - it's lasting too long. It feels there is just a bad mentality now, full stop. That takes longer to cure because it quite likely involves personnel changes too.
There's an interesting (but take with a pinch of salt) article here along the same lines:
http://www.theunitedpages.com/why-firemanmou/
We'd love it to be done quickly, of course, but it's not likely. Not for Mou, not for Kloppy, not for Guardiola. It's bigger than that.
I almost think not being close to CL come December could actually be a blessing. It will make it easier for Mou to move a few on in Jan without having to worry about it damaging CL hopes
Bottom line is the players should be ashamed. They are playing for Manchester United and should be proud to pull on the jersey and give 100% on the pitch regardless of anything else.
This lot look like Leyland workers, turning up coz the pay is good with little effort.
I am saddened to see this display. Even when we got binned into div 2 the players played their hearts out for the club and fans.
No respect for the fans or the history of club. Damn shame.
This lot look like Leyland workers, turning up coz the pay is good with little effort.
I am saddened to see this display. Even when we got binned into div 2 the players played their hearts out for the club and fans.
No respect for the fans or the history of club. Damn shame.
Athlon said:
Bottom line is the players should be ashamed. They are playing for Manchester United and should be proud to pull on the jersey and give 100% on the pitch regardless of anything else.
This lot look like Leyland workers, turning up coz the pay is good with little effort.
I am saddened to see this display. Even when we got binned into div 2 the players played their hearts out for the club and fans.
No respect for the fans or the history of club. Damn shame.
They are just employees though.This lot look like Leyland workers, turning up coz the pay is good with little effort.
I am saddened to see this display. Even when we got binned into div 2 the players played their hearts out for the club and fans.
No respect for the fans or the history of club. Damn shame.
uk66fastback said:
If Utd had scored with five mins to go under old whiskey nose, there would have been three players into the net to get the ball back and get on with it. Rooney turned almost apologetically (he was to far out to go get it himself of course, it was a great shot!) and just walked back.
Nail on the head there.The hairdryer would have been working overtime last night.
Great goal from Rooney, hopefully he will get some confidence back, never nice to see any player go through a bad patch, and I say that as a City fan.
Athlon said:
Bottom line is the players should be ashamed. They are playing for Manchester United and should be proud to pull on the jersey and give 100% on the pitch regardless of anything else.
This lot look like Leyland workers, turning up coz the pay is good with little effort.
I am saddened to see this display. Even when we got binned into div 2 the players played their hearts out for the club and fans.
No respect for the fans or the history of club. Damn shame.
But you've not gone for many players that have actively shown an interest in playing for Utd, you've pretty much just signed players because you've offered the biggest wages.This lot look like Leyland workers, turning up coz the pay is good with little effort.
I am saddened to see this display. Even when we got binned into div 2 the players played their hearts out for the club and fans.
No respect for the fans or the history of club. Damn shame.
uk66fastback said:
Read a piece where it was said the players bought were happy where they were (inc Carlton Pogba) and the moves were 'forced' through by their agents(s). Crazy. The agent works for the player surely?!
That's the problem with how agents are paid, they're all on a % of wages and transfer/signing/commercial deals.A player would be much better advised having their advisors on a flat fee or not having an agent at all a la Scholes!
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