The Official Liverpool FC Thread [Vol 13]
Discussion
Dare I say it, I have always liked Romeu as a DM for Southampton. He provides excellent defensive cover, strong tackler, arguably leadership through his non-nonsense style - kind of reminds me of Mascherano. Not saying we should go for him but he is the type of player we are lacking.
If you blame the system you're blaming the manager because the manager is the system.
But if you do that are you absolving the players?
This is the same scenario that I recall after Benitez left. People said nobody could do any better with the resources at hand - and they were right and nothing has fundamentally changed.
You could give every manager in the Premier League a go at Liverpool and none of them would succeed with the resources at hand. The playing unit is not up to it. That's not to say Klopp is blameless or the best manager for the job.
Is Klopp the best man to give a big budget too? Apparently he already has access to the money but won't spend it until the perfect player turns up on the conveyor belt. That's a problem because the perfect player will never arrive and how far do you allow the team to fall before someone says to Klopp - Enough! FFS buy someone, anyone!!!
If Liverpool genuinely had made available the major funds necessary to build a title-challenging team, then Klopp would be the wrong man for the job because he doesn't appear to know how to buy success.
Guardiola does. Mourinho does. They know how to buy to win. Klopp might know how to coach to win - or he might not! He certainly doesn't know how to buy to win.
But he says he had the money - maybe - do you believe him? If the club had made the money available (the hundreds of millions necessary) then why not recruit a manager who would use the money properly and buy to win.
For me it's self-evident. There's never been enough money on the table - you can't tempt a Guardiola or a Mourinho because they see the money available and they won't be forced to make-do. You recruit Klopp because he offers hope on a budget.
I like Klopp but either it's untrue that the money is available, in which case he would have my sympathy or if the money is available, then his fiddling while Rome burns is criminal. His good players will age and wither and eventually leave while he tries to motivate the under-achievers. He seems to be like the teacher in a mixed-ability class who leaves the bright kids to get on with their own work while he tries to motivate the strugglers. And maybe that's what the owners are prepared to put up with too - treading water. It's depressing to watch.
But if you do that are you absolving the players?
This is the same scenario that I recall after Benitez left. People said nobody could do any better with the resources at hand - and they were right and nothing has fundamentally changed.
You could give every manager in the Premier League a go at Liverpool and none of them would succeed with the resources at hand. The playing unit is not up to it. That's not to say Klopp is blameless or the best manager for the job.
Is Klopp the best man to give a big budget too? Apparently he already has access to the money but won't spend it until the perfect player turns up on the conveyor belt. That's a problem because the perfect player will never arrive and how far do you allow the team to fall before someone says to Klopp - Enough! FFS buy someone, anyone!!!
If Liverpool genuinely had made available the major funds necessary to build a title-challenging team, then Klopp would be the wrong man for the job because he doesn't appear to know how to buy success.
Guardiola does. Mourinho does. They know how to buy to win. Klopp might know how to coach to win - or he might not! He certainly doesn't know how to buy to win.
But he says he had the money - maybe - do you believe him? If the club had made the money available (the hundreds of millions necessary) then why not recruit a manager who would use the money properly and buy to win.
For me it's self-evident. There's never been enough money on the table - you can't tempt a Guardiola or a Mourinho because they see the money available and they won't be forced to make-do. You recruit Klopp because he offers hope on a budget.
I like Klopp but either it's untrue that the money is available, in which case he would have my sympathy or if the money is available, then his fiddling while Rome burns is criminal. His good players will age and wither and eventually leave while he tries to motivate the under-achievers. He seems to be like the teacher in a mixed-ability class who leaves the bright kids to get on with their own work while he tries to motivate the strugglers. And maybe that's what the owners are prepared to put up with too - treading water. It's depressing to watch.
jammy-git said:
Feels like RT is back...
I think most people are agreeing that it's both; the system/Klopp AND the players.
That's it exactly! Klopp would be a great manager for a different team at a different life-stage.I think most people are agreeing that it's both; the system/Klopp AND the players.
Liverpool are 'once-greats' desperately trying to re-capture that greatness but hobbled by tight owners and predominantly middle-of-the-road players. All the tinkering with systems won't change that.
If you want to win the league you need a generous owner and a manager who knows how to buy to build.
Without that we're condemned to sitting at home moaning about why we can't do what Leicester did or why Burnley are ahead of us in the league. They've got/had the right managers with the right players. We've had both wrong for too long now.
Didn't Carragher have an article out recently about lowering our ambitions to realistic levels? It seems to be the only option and take what enjoyment you can from 'rolling the dice' every game. Just raises my blood pressure then when Klopp says - Well I have the money to change things but I'm not spending it yet!
m3sye said:
IMHO lucas 2 years ago would have been ok - but he is not up to standard for a team wanting to be top 4 anymore .... He will do fine in Italy, much slower game....
That's not really the point though, he was a defensive midfielder of limited ability but none the less, Klopp chose not to use him unless you had too, klopp chose not to upgrade him, klopp chose not to replace him. Much like klopp sold your best center back and had no plan b when he failed to land VVD.
Klopp decides your tactics, personnel and formation. He's had time and money to change all of this..
The reason you cant defend is klopp.
I actually felt sorry for Loveren on Sunday, hung out to dry.
Ascayman said:
That's not really the point though, he was a defensive midfielder of limited ability but none the less, Klopp chose not to use him unless you had too, klopp chose not to upgrade him, klopp chose not to replace him.
Much like klopp sold your best center back and had no plan b when he failed to land VVD.
Klopp decides your tactics, personnel and formation. He's had time and money to change all of this..
The reason you cant defend is klopp.
I actually felt sorry for Loveren on Sunday, hung out to dry.
I was with you until the last sentence.Much like klopp sold your best center back and had no plan b when he failed to land VVD.
Klopp decides your tactics, personnel and formation. He's had time and money to change all of this..
The reason you cant defend is klopp.
I actually felt sorry for Loveren on Sunday, hung out to dry.
Lovren was a complete load of balls on Sunday and the system we play had nothing to do with all the goals. They were gifts.
I am all for the managers taking responsibility and at this stage Klopp deserves some flack. Just as he will deserve the praise when he gets it right.
Which I am sure he will.
As a Saints fan, it's interesting to see your views on our system. My own view is that Lovren was great at Southampton because he had a vocal defensive partner in Fonte, strong support from his full backs, but above all, the likes of Wanyama, Davis and Romeu covering in front of him. I also feel that Saints used to defend as a team which I don't see Liverpool doing now, it looks a little like defending is left to 6 or so players.
Saints also used to be very vocal with lots of communication on the pitch between the players and a real sense that they were working for each other. I don't get that sense with your team today
Saints also used to be very vocal with lots of communication on the pitch between the players and a real sense that they were working for each other. I don't get that sense with your team today
m3sye said:
jammy-git said:
Feels like RT is back...
I think most people are agreeing that it's both; the system/Klopp AND the players.
jeesus I am glad someone else said something - is it just me or have we repeated the same thing a dozen times now I think most people are agreeing that it's both; the system/Klopp AND the players.
NRS said:
m3sye said:
jammy-git said:
Feels like RT is back...
I think most people are agreeing that it's both; the system/Klopp AND the players.
jeesus I am glad someone else said something - is it just me or have we repeated the same thing a dozen times now I think most people are agreeing that it's both; the system/Klopp AND the players.
desolate said:
Ascayman said:
That's not really the point though, he was a defensive midfielder of limited ability but none the less, Klopp chose not to use him unless you had too, klopp chose not to upgrade him, klopp chose not to replace him.
Much like klopp sold your best center back and had no plan b when he failed to land VVD.
Klopp decides your tactics, personnel and formation. He's had time and money to change all of this..
The reason you cant defend is klopp.
I actually felt sorry for Loveren on Sunday, hung out to dry.
I was with you until the last sentence.Much like klopp sold your best center back and had no plan b when he failed to land VVD.
Klopp decides your tactics, personnel and formation. He's had time and money to change all of this..
The reason you cant defend is klopp.
I actually felt sorry for Loveren on Sunday, hung out to dry.
Lovren was a complete load of balls on Sunday and the system we play had nothing to do with all the goals. They were gifts.
I am all for the managers taking responsibility and at this stage Klopp deserves some flack. Just as he will deserve the praise when he gets it right.
Which I am sure he will.
Unfortunately this isn't his first f
ked up rodeo, so my sympathy doesn't stretch far.The jiffle king said:
As a Saints fan, it's interesting to see your views on our system. My own view is that Lovren was great at Southampton because he had a vocal defensive partner in Fonte, strong support from his full backs, but above all, the likes of Wanyama, Davis and Romeu covering in front of him. I also feel that Saints used to defend as a team which I don't see Liverpool doing now, it looks a little like defending is left to 6 or so players.
Saints also used to be very vocal with lots of communication on the pitch between the players and a real sense that they were working for each other. I don't get that sense with your team today
Correct we dont - but its good to see I am right with regards to how much cover he has Saints also used to be very vocal with lots of communication on the pitch between the players and a real sense that they were working for each other. I don't get that sense with your team today
Fonte as I have also pointed out as gone from someone very good to someone very average at Hammers without the same protection...
m3sye said:
jammy-git said:
Feels like RT is back...
I think most people are agreeing that it's both; the system/Klopp AND the players.
jeesus I am glad someone else said something - is it just me or have we repeated the same thing a dozen times now I think most people are agreeing that it's both; the system/Klopp AND the players.
The Tommy Cooper supporters club: Glass, bottle; Bottle, Glass? Manager, players:Players, Manager?
jammy-git said:
Taking Sunday in isolation I felt a bit sorry for Lovren. He was only the direct cause of 1 of the 4 goals and wasn't even on the pitch for 2 of them. If he hadn't made such a visible balls up of that second goal I don't think he'd be copping so much blame.
Unfortunately this isn't his first fked up rodeo, so my sympathy doesn't stretch far.
Let's not forget his attempt for the first as well. The isolated camera shot of him doing a wtf?! Double take is comedy gold.Unfortunately this isn't his first f
ked up rodeo, so my sympathy doesn't stretch far.Anyway, I agree time to move on.
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