The Official Manchester United Thread [vol 7]

[Gavia]

jammy-git said:

I don't think JM should have taken over from Fergie. The difference in playing styles would have been even more stark.

I love that you seem to look back at the SAF years a if we were some undefeatable über team for his whole career amd that we swept teams aside. Which of you Scousers is it that adores stats? Take a look at SAF’s final season in the PL

38 matches
28 Wins
5 Draws
5 Defeats
16 Wins by 1 goal
7 Wins by 2 goals
2 Wins by 3 goals
3 Wins by 4 goals
0 Wins by 5 goals or more

We must have been incredible

[200Plus Club]

Good point earlier about Utd having got into a style before Jose arrived and parked his bus.
LVG set the rot going with his style if you can call it that. Jose has improved certain aspects and got rid of some of the average players and brought in fresh. He's also given youth a chance too. No complaints really, some of the Utd players (Jones etc) are not top quality compared to some teams And some are nearing the end (Carrick, young, fellani moving on). It's still a transition period as in all honesty no one expected much last season.

[Challo]

200Plus Club said:

Good point earlier about Utd having got into a style before Jose arrived and parked his bus.
LVG set the rot going with his style if you can call it that. Jose has improved certain aspects and got rid of some of the average players and brought in fresh. He's also given youth a chance too. No complaints really, some of the Utd players (Jones etc) are not top quality compared to some teams And some are nearing the end (Carrick, young, fellani moving on). It's still a transition period as in all honesty no one expected much last season.

I agree that he has made some positive steps with the squad and its had some major surgery. Still need midfield sorted, and a few more defenders and hopefully that will be the last jigsaw puzzle.

[jammy-git]

Gavia said:

jammy-git said:

I don't think JM should have taken over from Fergie. The difference in playing styles would have been even more stark.

I love that you seem to look back at the SAF years a if we were some undefeatable über team for his whole career amd that we swept teams aside. Which of you Scousers is it that adores stats? Take a look at SAF’s final season in the PL

38 matches
28 Wins
5 Draws
5 Defeats
16 Wins by 1 goal
7 Wins by 2 goals
2 Wins by 3 goals
3 Wins by 4 goals
0 Wins by 5 goals or more

We must have been incredible

Yes, his final few seasons were definitely him getting more out of the team than what you'd expect given the players. But the 90s and 00s were obviously his best years in terms of the teams he put together. Yet just 1 CL trophy. I'm not belittling his achievements, he's obviously one of the best managers we've ever seen in the game, but I just wouldn't use him as a yardstick for European greatness.

[DeltonaS]

Big Raff said:

Raygun said:

Big Raff said:

I have to say i am a fan of JM and I don't mind that he has built teams with strength and power and has won it all but a bit of flare goes a long way. He should have been the immediate successor to SAF and he has done better than the two managers before him. All imo of course

Edited by Big Raff on Thursday 22 February 15:10

He's spent a lot more than the two managers before him with not much improvement you mean?

I would say we have improved (results and performances), and the argument is there that he may not have spent much more than LVG. Sure spent more on individual players, but

Di Maria + Shaw + Herrera + Memphis + Schmidfield + Rojo + Blind + Darmian + Martial + Falcao + Romero (free) + Valdes (free) =

Pogba + Bailly + Lukaku + Lindelof + Matic + Miki/Sanchez + Zlatan (Free)

There is not that much in it...30m swing perhaps, 40 tops?

Add in the Moyes spend and he is under, and won more...

LvG spend 200m Euro, Mourinho spend 291m, both in 2 years. That's 91m Euro more for the boring one.

Add the fact that Mourinho could build on what his predecessor had (and didn't have).

Plus as usual under Mourinho all the young players are either gone or do not get any playing time, even Fosuh Mensah. Apart from Rashford of course, which is rather obvious given how he's developed pre Mourinho.

[Cie]

DeltonaS said:

LvG spend 200m Euro, Mourinho spend 291m, both in 2 years. That's 91m Euro more for the boring one.

Add the fact that Mourinho could build on what his predecessor had (and didn't have).

Plus as usual under Mourinho all the young players are either gone or do not get any playing time, even Fosuh Mensah. Apart from Rashford of course, which is rather obvious given how he's developed pre Mourinho.

You're so dumb it hurts.

[200Plus Club]

jammy-git said:

Gavia said:

jammy-git said:

I don't think JM should have taken over from Fergie. The difference in playing styles would have been even more stark.

I love that you seem to look back at the SAF years a if we were some undefeatable über team for his whole career amd that we swept teams aside. Which of you Scousers is it that adores stats? Take a look at SAF’s final season in the PL

38 matches
28 Wins
5 Draws
5 Defeats
16 Wins by 1 goal
7 Wins by 2 goals
2 Wins by 3 goals
3 Wins by 4 goals
0 Wins by 5 goals or more

We must have been incredible

Yes, his final few seasons were definitely him getting more out of the team than what you'd expect given the players. But the 90s and 00s were obviously his best years in terms of the teams he put together. Yet just 1 CL trophy. I'm not belittling his achievements, he's obviously one of the best managers we've ever seen in the game, but I just wouldn't use him as a yardstick for European greatness.

Fergie won the CL twice with Utd. Unless I misunderstood your post somehow?

And for comparison with Jose with the away draws in Europe...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/5643132/ma...

[200Plus Club]

Cie said:

You're so dumb it hurts.

Agreed. Painful.....

All those young stars like lingard, martial, rashford, mctominay, gomez... All gone... gone.. like leaves in the wind... damn that mourinho and his bus.

[Gavia]

DeltonaS said:

LvG spend 200m Euro, Mourinho spend 291m, both in 2 years. That's 91m Euro more for the boring one.

Add the fact that Mourinho could build on what his predecessor had (and didn't have).

Plus as usual under Mourinho all the young players are either gone or do not get any playing time, even Fosuh Mensah. Apart from Rashford of course, which is rather obvious given how he's developed pre Mourinho.

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Challo]

DeltonaS said:

Big Raff said:

Raygun said:

Big Raff said:

I have to say i am a fan of JM and I don't mind that he has built teams with strength and power and has won it all but a bit of flare goes a long way. He should have been the immediate successor to SAF and he has done better than the two managers before him. All imo of course

Edited by Big Raff on Thursday 22 February 15:10

He's spent a lot more than the two managers before him with not much improvement you mean?

I would say we have improved (results and performances), and the argument is there that he may not have spent much more than LVG. Sure spent more on individual players, but

Di Maria + Shaw + Herrera + Memphis + Schmidfield + Rojo + Blind + Darmian + Martial + Falcao + Romero (free) + Valdes (free) =

Pogba + Bailly + Lukaku + Lindelof + Matic + Miki/Sanchez + Zlatan (Free)

There is not that much in it...30m swing perhaps, 40 tops?

Add in the Moyes spend and he is under, and won more...

LvG spend 200m Euro, Mourinho spend 291m, both in 2 years. That's 91m Euro more for the boring one.

Add the fact that Mourinho could build on what his predecessor had (and didn't have).

Plus as usual under Mourinho all the young players are either gone or do not get any playing time, even Fosuh Mensah. Apart from Rashford of course, which is rather obvious given how he's developed pre Mourinho.

The whole money thing becomes a non issues these days when players are going for over £100 million. Pogba was £90m on his own, and is that JM’s fault?

LvG brought some dross, and played some shocking football. Glad we have moved on to JM.

[200Plus Club]

Better news on the BBC football gossip column that DDG may be close to signing a new contract. That's worth £150m in today's market if it happens:-)

[jammy-git]

200Plus Club said:

Fergie won the CL twice with Utd. Unless I misunderstood your post somehow?

And for comparison with Jose with the away draws in Europe...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/5643132/ma...

I really need to start fact checking my posts!

I think my point still stands though. There was a criticism of his reign at Utd that either he always prioritised domestic competitions over European ones, or that his style of play didn't work very well against the best European sides.

[200Plus Club]

jammy-git said:

I really need to start fact checking my posts!

I think my point still stands though. There was a criticism of his reign at Utd that either he always prioritised domestic competitions over European ones, or that his style of play didn't work very well against the best European sides.

No criticism from the Utd fans tho, only from people who at the time didn't realise how good the actual Fergie era was and would become.
Later on we were spanked regularly by the likes of Barca but at the time so was any team in the world.

We won't see the likes of it again because other teams now have similar clout spending and attracting top players and managers and of course no one allows years for a manager to bed in any more and set his own regime entirely. That era of football is now gone.

[Alpinestars]

jammy-git said:

200Plus Club said:

Fergie won the CL twice with Utd. Unless I misunderstood your post somehow?

And for comparison with Jose with the away draws in Europe...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/5643132/ma...

I really need to start fact checking my posts!

I think my point still stands though. There was a criticism of his reign at Utd that either he always prioritised domestic competitions over European ones, or that his style of play didn't work very well against the best European sides.

Scouse facts that you and Sye trot out.

You really are clutching at straws. He was a sensational manager, which is becoming very evident now. he left us winning the league with an incredibly average team. In Europe, he won the CL twice and lost in two finals to the then, best team in the world.

[Big Raff]

Alpinestars said:

Scouse facts that you and Sye trot out.

You really are clutching at straws. He was a sensational manager, which is becoming very evident now. he left us winning the league with an incredibly average team. In Europe, he won the CL twice and lost in two finals to the then, best team in the world.

Spot on...though, we should have won in Rome

[franki68]

jammy-git said:

200Plus Club said:

Fergie won the CL twice with Utd. Unless I misunderstood your post somehow?

And for comparison with Jose with the away draws in Europe...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/5643132/ma...

I really need to start fact checking my posts!exception

I think my point still stands though. There was a criticism of his reign at Utd that either he always prioritised domestic competitions over European ones, or that his style of play didn't work very well against the best European sides.

His all out attacking style rarely worked in Europe ,99 being the exception .In later years he went more counter attacking and they got to 3 finals in 4 years losing 2 to what most people believe to be the greatest club side ever .
Should have won it in I think 97 when we lost to Dortmund in the semis ,we battered them in both games but just couldn’t score .Still bugs me that.

[200Plus Club]

We were fortunate to witness and be involved in probably the finest managerial era there may ever be.
And yes I'm disregarding Liverpool in the 70s and 80s etc. fergie did it through many challenges at the biggest and most underperforming club at the time in the world, under tremendous scrutiny and pressure. Many club owners came and went home skint and without the same level of trophy performance in that era. Fergie changed the entire ethos of the club and was still winning the league right to the end with what was an aging and average squad.
It's taken a few years and managers since for people to realise it can't and won't be replicated again. City will not recreate that treble this year if at all, I'll hold my hat up to the next team to do so if it ever happens again.

[jammy-git]

franki68 said:

His all out attacking style rarely worked in Europe ,99 being the exception .In later years he went more counter attacking and they got to 3 finals in 4 years losing 2 to what most people believe to be the greatest club side ever .
Should have won it in I think 97 when we lost to Dortmund in the semis ,we battered them in both games but just couldn’t score .Still bugs me that.

Thank you! I'm not trying to criticise. Just saying that for many years of those when Utd were virtually unrivalled domestically, it wasn't quite working in European competition.

[200Plus Club]

jammy-git said:

Thank you! I'm not trying to criticise. Just saying that for many years of those when Utd were virtually unrivalled domestically, it wasn't quite working in European competition.

Other than just the 2 champions league wins and beaten finalists plus the cup winners cup of course :-)
Only Barca and Real have done more in recent history, so you won't get any Utd fans moaning.

[Gavia]

jammy-git said:

Thank you! I'm not trying to criticise. Just saying that for many years of those when Utd were virtually unrivalled domestically, it wasn't quite working in European competition.

As has been pointed out looking at winning it only is going to give a skewed view. We’ve had strong performances in the CL. I’m not sure what point you’re making, so here are the stats from our first entry in 1993 to SAF’s last campaign (some of the results are a bit weird in the early knockouts as there’s were two group stages some years and no pre 1/4 KO match)

Group stage exit 3
1st knockout round exit 4
1/4s 5
Semi 3
Final 4
Wins 2

In 21 years he managed to make the semis or better 1 in every 3 attempts on average, that’s pretty successful however you measure it.