Will VAR Change Football for the Better?

[Sparkyhd]

cqueen said:

Willan dived imo, left a deliberate trailing leg so there was 'contact'.

Leaving a trailing leg is really irritating but in this case I can't see why William would do it because he was 6 yards out with only the goalie to beat.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

I thought the Willian one was a pen but no way was it " a pen all day long" or "a stonewall pen". Very much open to individual interpretation. Not giving the pen is not the wrong decision, as it wasn't clear cut.

[London424]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

I thought the Willian one was a pen but no way was it " a pen all day long" or "a stonewall pen". Very much open to individual interpretation. Not giving the pen is not the wrong decision, as it wasn't clear cut.

I'm guessing you're happy now? VAR causing even more controversy than ever! Plenty to still get pissed off with about the game

[TwigtheWonderkid]

London424 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

I thought the Willian one was a pen but no way was it " a pen all day long" or "a stonewall pen". Very much open to individual interpretation. Not giving the pen is not the wrong decision, as it wasn't clear cut.

I'm guessing you're happy now? VAR causing even more controversy than ever! Plenty to still get pissed off with about the game

I'm certainly happy so many people are unhappy with VAR. Hopefully they will bin it. Now fingers crossed for a cock up with goal line technology.

[Voldemort]

Cheating the referee, imo, should be regarded as worse than violent conduct and should carry fines and bans appropriate.

If being caught diving in the box led to a 2 week wage fine and a 10 game ban there would be very little box diving...

I'm a bit meh about VAR but think that every game should be reviewed afterwards and any player/manager identified as trying to deceive the ref should be punished.

[Glassman]

Voldemort said:

If being caught diving in the box led to a 2 week wage fine and a 10 game ban there would be very little box diving...

Docking a point or two would also make the club/manager think about it.

[Sparkyhd]

But did Willian dive because it would have been easier to score from where he was than a penalty.

If he did dive then his decision making is suspect, which is distinctly possible.

Or maybe players are so used to falling over that it's now the default, they don't even make a decision.

I blame foreigners, specifically Robert Pires, because he's my earliest memory of a trailing leg.

[yellowjack]

Driver101 said:

RichB said:

Driver101 said:

The ref isn't for using the VAR tonight.

It didn't help he got the Willan penalty call all wrong.

That just goes to show hoe difficult it is. I thought it was a dive and after seeing numerous slow and fast replays I still see Wilian jump over the Norwich guys legs and then make sure his trailing foot catches his shin to validate the penalty claim. So for me the ref got it right.

It was a penalty every day of the week.

Morata was looking for a penalty all night. He's going down under any contact and expecting the video to show that. That's the bad side of the VAR.

No difference for me between the Willian incident and Pedro's dive under the 'keeper's challenge. Just that Willian's effort was better judged to look like contact. It's the same every time - "Oooh - here comes the challenge... aaaaaaand [stub] dig my toe into the turf so it looks like contact. Cheers ref! I've missed so many sitters this season that it's better to give it to the nominated penalty taker from 12 yards, after all..."

Completely unnatural position for his legs to be in too. Both together like that? At the pace he's running at, suddenly trying to stand with both legs together is going to see you on your face whether there's a defender there or not. Someone naturally trying to avoid contact (as anyone does instinctively) is going to have one leg or the other caught as they try to run on. Willian is looking for contact and makes sure he gets it, either from the turf or from the defender. I'm convinced, as I was even before the endless pundit's replays, that it was a dive. After the replays I was even more convinced.

I'm also sick of comments from pundits along the lines of "you can't blame the lad for going down like that" even where there is (minimal) contact. We can. And we should. Players, especially forwards, ought to be hungry for goalscoring opportunities, not on the lookout for the slightest excuse to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Goal line technology ought to be restricted in it's use. To Cup competitions, the FA Cup, European Championships, World Cup, etc, where it truly is "winner takes all". The rest of the techno-gubbins? It shouldn't have a place in football. I watch most of my live football a fair way down from the dizzy heights of The Premier League. Down in the Evo-Stick sponsored leagues there's no chance of VAR, nor goal line technology. There's a slim chance of getting top quality officials even. There shouldn't be a distinction made between top sides and grass roots football when it comes to the fairness and accuracy of referees' decisions. Either we can afford for all games to have technological assistance, or it doesn't have a place in the game at all.

For some teams it'll make no odds. Farnborough FC currently sit 17th (from 24 teams) in the Southern League Premier Division (step 7). No one mistake by a referee is going to see them promoted, nor consign them to relegation. But King's Lynn Town and Kettering Town are locked together at the top - just a point apart, with four teams within three points at the top. It might not sound much to the average Manchester United supporter, but playing next season in the Conference South with "Southern League Premier Division Champions 2017-2018" embroidered around the club badge is a big deal at this level. And one poor decision could cost a team dearly. Why should these matches be left to the vagaries of "human error" any more than a Chelsea v Tottenham match to decide who gets a Champion's League place should be?

I've watched a couple of these VAR-assisted games now, and I don't really feel that VAR has added anything of value to any of them. Bin it. Bin it now, while we still can, before it's rolled out more extensively and the technology providers have dug their claws into the game too far. What next?


"Bet in play now! Will the next video referral uphold or overturn the referee's original decision?"

For all the criticism they get, referees must surely be doing their best to make the right decisions. I know I was when I umpired Hockey matches. But at least all I had after a game was one side or the other (or both!) bhing and moaning about me breaking up the flow of the game too much or too little as they piled back onto their minibus. The only spectators I had to deal with were either side's subs, and the groundskeeper and his dog. I pity the match officials at these high level football matches, with millions already picking over their decisions courtesy of multiple replays from half a dozen angles. But now there's the additional pressure of having a video ref second-guess your decisions, along with tens of thousands inside the stadium (none of whom you'll ever really please) and millions on their sofas at home...

[Brave Fart]

Some well argued points here; VAR is still evolving I suspect.
Yellowjack - I disagree with your "all football levels, or none at all" view, if only because we don't have the same standard across the leagues as it stands. Referees in League 1 are pretty poor and are not professionals unlike in the EPL and the Championship. So I don't have a problem with the top leagues having VAR and the lower leagues doing without.
Twig - sorry but I cannot agree with your "injustice is what makes it memorable" argument. I take precisely the opposite view; my team should win or lose fair and square, not because of officials' errors. I don't have cherished memories of Lampard's "goal" in South Africa, it just pees me off that the officials didn't give it. Maybe, just maybe, they were corrupt............FIFA competition and all?

As for last night, that Willian incident was a penalty all day long. He was tripped at high speed by a clumsy tackle and might well have scored if he hadn't been fouled. How the video ref at Stockley didn't overrule the on field ref I do not know. But generally, VAR makes the correct decision more likely and I'm all for it.

BTW I've been watching live football for over 40 years now, well if you can call Pompey football that is

[JLC25]

Brave Fart said:

Some well argued points here; VAR is still evolving I suspect.
Yellowjack - I disagree with your "all football levels, or none at all" view, if only because we don't have the same standard across the leagues as it stands. Referees in League 1 are pretty poor and are not professionals unlike in the EPL and the Championship. So I don't have a problem with the top leagues having VAR and the lower leagues doing without.

Exactly - I've played a couple of promotions below the level Yellowjack watches - the referees are your average man, running about on the weekend for a game they love, a bit of fitness and a bit of beer money - the premier league ref's get up to £70000 a year basic and can get up to a £1000 game bonus too - £100k a year is possible. If you hired someone for that money, you'd want to give them every tool to succeed or at least try new ways to get the best results.

[Juanco20]

Brave Fart said:

Some well argued points here; VAR is still evolving I suspect.
Yellowjack - I disagree with your "all football levels, or none at all" view, if only because we don't have the same standard across the leagues as it stands. Referees in League 1 are pretty poor and are not professionals unlike in the EPL and the Championship. So I don't have a problem with the top leagues having VAR and the lower leagues doing without.
Twig - sorry but I cannot agree with your "injustice is what makes it memorable" argument. I take precisely the opposite view; my team should win or lose fair and square, not because of officials' errors. I don't have cherished memories of Lampard's "goal" in South Africa, it just pees me off that the officials didn't give it. Maybe, just maybe, they were corrupt............FIFA competition and all?

As for last night, that Willian incident was a penalty all day long. He was tripped at high speed by a clumsy tackle and might well have scored if he hadn't been fouled. How the video ref at Stockley didn't overrule the on field ref I do not know. But generally, VAR makes the correct decision more likely and I'm all for it.

BTW I've been watching live football for over 40 years now, well if you can call Pompey football that is

As a Huddersfield fan I've had the joys of seeing referees in all 4 divisions in the last 15 years. The standard of refereeing is actually worse in the premier league than I've seen lower down, some ridiculous decisions and pretty much zero accountability.

[gooner1]

What I don't understand re the use of VAR last night is, why on earth
was it used to decide whether, a corner, throw in or a goal kick should be awarded, but
not for either penalty claims, or Willams one at least.

[Terminator X]

Glassman said:

I hope this is the beginning of change for football.

Somehow, I just see it as players having even more reason to surround the referee, imploring him to go to the screen...

If it stops the players falling like they've been shot in and around the area then all good imho.

TX.

[Terminator X]

monty999 said:

Just think how many extra pies will be sold during these 4 hour marathons
Also another 'benefit' would be being able to go for a slash during the game without missing anything !

Cobblers, just do what they do in Rugby and carry on with the game. Come back to incidents if flagged by the video reviewers eg after a couple of minutes playing as normal the ball comes back for a penalty.

TX.

[monty999]

Terminator X said:

Cobblers, just do what they do in Rugby and carry on with the game. Come back to incidents if flagged by the video reviewers eg after a couple of minutes playing as normal the ball comes back for a penalty.

TX.

But thats my point, this is football not rugby. If that's what happens at rugby then fine but keep it out of our game !
If it's introduced in the interest of 'fairness' then where is the line drawn on when it's ok not to be 'fair' ? Penalty decision, corner decision, even throw in decision where a goal is scored as a result of incorrect throw-in. Apart from penalty decisions, which will always be subjective anyway, last night the ref immediately blew (incorrectly) for offside when Batshuayi was put through, the night before a goal was allowed following incorrect flagging. It will be too inconsistent so lets all accept bad decisions and moan about it after like we have happily done for years.

[RichB]

Sparkyhd said:

But did Willian dive because it would have been easier to score from where he was than a penalty. If he did dive then his decision making is suspect, which is distinctly possible. Or maybe players are so used to falling over that it's now the default, they don't even make a decision. I blame foreigners, specifically Robert Pires, because he's my earliest memory of a trailing leg.

I can't find the montage I am looking for but this video of George Best shows how it was possible to ride crashing tackles, stay on one's feet and still put the ball in the net, usually in thick mud and while making the entire opposition's defence look like idiots! I don't when it became fashionable to fall over rather than dazzle spectators with dribbling wizardry but whenever it was it was a sorry day for football!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJWWA-h_-5g

p.s. I am not a ManU fan, never have been, but looking back on this makes me long for the days of entertainers in football.

[joema]

I disagree.

It needs to be used whole heartedly (for certain things like penalties, red cards and offsides). It should take no longer than the pause that takes place while players confront the ref now.

Referees are not respected because they make bullst decisions. You don't get that in Rugby where ref's are respected, in a large part because they use their VAR properly so they don't make so many mistakes.

By having the VAR they are protecting themselves, creating less anger towards themselves and making it fair.

It's a useful tool and needs to be used properly.

I for one can live without a 10minute analysis of a refereeing mistake on MOTD anyway.

[Gavia]

RichB said:

I can't find the montage I am looking for but this video of George Best shows how it was possible to ride crashing tackles, stay on one's feet and still put the ball in the net, usually in thick mud and while making the entire opposition's defence look like idiots! I don't when it became fashionable to fall over rather than dazzle spectators with dribbling wizardry but whenever it was it was a sorry day for football!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJWWA-h_-5g

p.s. I am not a ManU fan, never have been, but looking back on this makes me long for the days of entertainers in football.

I am a United fan and to compare players to George Best is a bit futile. He was one of the greatest players ever, with an amazing ability to drift past players. Few players have that level of ability.

[RichB]

Gavia said:

I am a United fan and to compare players to George Best is a bit futile. He was one of the greatest players ever, with an amazing ability to drift past players. Few players have that level of ability.

I think you miss my point, I was pointing to the fact that he could have gone over numerous times but didn't. Instead he prefered to tuck the ball away and was one of the most entertaining footballers of all time.

Did you ever see him play? I did, he was amazing!

[Gavia]

RichB said:

I think you miss my point, I was pointing to the fact that he could have gone over numerous times but didn't. Instead he prefered to tuck the ball away and was one of the most entertaining footballers of all time.

Did you ever see him play? I did, he was amazing!

He was a bit, but only a little bit before my time. I agree that players should be able to ride some of the tackles that they currently go over in a heap for.

I always remember playing football in Spain as a kid on holiday against some of the locals. My brother went over on his ankle after landing awkwardly, but no within 10’feet of anyone else. Was quite bizarre seeing three of the opposition all fall over and grab their shins and roll around too.