The Official England Thread-The Team We All Support [Vol 3]

[epom]

carlo996 said:

To win against that bunch of cheating fkers is a result tbh. Shaw/Maguire were poor.

Cheating ? How so?

[Driver101]

ruwokeenuff said:

Driver101 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

grumpy52 said:

Am I wrong in thinking that the Ref had a plan , book England players early to put pressure on later in the game and hopefully give 2nd yellow/ red card . One of our bookings for time wasting was at a free kick even though an Italian player hadn't moved 5 yards let alone the required 10 .
The ref certainly wasn't equal and unbiased. He certainly wouldn't have considered the penalty without the mass England protest ,

He doesn't consider the pen anyway beyond his initial decision, that's the var's job. He never gave the pen, for which I don't blame him, as I never spotted it in real time. Afaik, that's the end of it, unless var gets involved. It's then the job of the var to ask the ref to pause play, as they think he might have missed something. The var might have been influenced by the protest, but the ref gives his decision and he doesn't ask for a review. Var decided they thought it was a pen, so asked the ref to look again at the monitor, as the ref makes the final decision. He reviewed it, and decided his initial decision was wrong.

Put your tinfoil hat away. I didn't think the ref was great, but I don't think he was biased.

It was hardly the strongest of penalities. Before VAR started pulling up handballs like that it would normally have been let go without much complaint.

I thought the referee was fine. I was impressed how quickly he clamped down on things like time wasting.

If the defender didnt handball it, could Kane have chested the ball down and scored?

I don't think it made much difference to the play.

[cerb4.5lee]

gt_12345 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

I think that Kane is an amazing goal scorer, but he is a natural born cheat/dirty player though for me, but with him being that way it has made him very successful though to be fair. He has always had a great way of conning the refs, and that helps the team get opportunities with free kicks etc in fairness.

Agree, although I'd word it differently. I think he has no qualms about playing the game the way it is naturally (unfortunately) evolving.

Yes and I wasn't meaning to sound derogatory towards him at all. I think he is a great player and I don't have anything against him at all either.

Obviously this isn't in anyway similar to a professional footballer, but when I used to play I always played the honest game because I didn't know any different, but secretly I always wanted to be more like the dirty players though, because everything always seemed to go their way in comparison if you know what I mean.

[LotusOmega375D]

Nice of Southgate to help City and Utd fringe players improve their match fitness in an away Qualifier against the reigning Euro champions. Surely that’s not the England manager’s job? Phillips and Maguire were woeful. If they’re not starting for their clubs, then they shouldn’t be starting for their country.

[andyA700]

coldel said:

I was going to say Jimmy Greaves was the goal to game king of England. What a record he had.
I think you also have to consider the changing game, Kane plays as the lone striker, lots of stuff fed into just him.
Shearer was often sharing the goals with another striker as a front pairing.

I would still say Shearer as an out and out goal scorer is a better player than Kane.

Shearer 30 goals in 63 games, Lineker 48 goals in 80 games, Nat Lofthouse 30 goals in 33 games.

https://eu-football.info/_players.php?id=60&da...

[andyA700]

Driver101 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

grumpy52 said:

Am I wrong in thinking that the Ref had a plan , book England players early to put pressure on later in the game and hopefully give 2nd yellow/ red card . One of our bookings for time wasting was at a free kick even though an Italian player hadn't moved 5 yards let alone the required 10 .
The ref certainly wasn't equal and unbiased. He certainly wouldn't have considered the penalty without the mass England protest ,

He doesn't consider the pen anyway beyond his initial decision, that's the var's job. He never gave the pen, for which I don't blame him, as I never spotted it in real time. Afaik, that's the end of it, unless var gets involved. It's then the job of the var to ask the ref to pause play, as they think he might have missed something. The var might have been influenced by the protest, but the ref gives his decision and he doesn't ask for a review. Var decided they thought it was a pen, so asked the ref to look again at the monitor, as the ref makes the final decision. He reviewed it, and decided his initial decision was wrong.

Put your tinfoil hat away. I didn't think the ref was great, but I don't think he was biased.

It was hardly the strongest of penalities. Before VAR started pulling up handballs like that it would normally have been let go without much complaint.

I thought the referee was fine. I was impressed how quickly he clamped down on things like time wasting.

Last man, handball on the line is about the most obvious penalty you can have.

[Driver101]

andyA700 said:

Driver101 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

grumpy52 said:

Am I wrong in thinking that the Ref had a plan , book England players early to put pressure on later in the game and hopefully give 2nd yellow/ red card . One of our bookings for time wasting was at a free kick even though an Italian player hadn't moved 5 yards let alone the required 10 .
The ref certainly wasn't equal and unbiased. He certainly wouldn't have considered the penalty without the mass England protest ,

He doesn't consider the pen anyway beyond his initial decision, that's the var's job. He never gave the pen, for which I don't blame him, as I never spotted it in real time. Afaik, that's the end of it, unless var gets involved. It's then the job of the var to ask the ref to pause play, as they think he might have missed something. The var might have been influenced by the protest, but the ref gives his decision and he doesn't ask for a review. Var decided they thought it was a pen, so asked the ref to look again at the monitor, as the ref makes the final decision. He reviewed it, and decided his initial decision was wrong.

Put your tinfoil hat away. I didn't think the ref was great, but I don't think he was biased.

It was hardly the strongest of penalities. Before VAR started pulling up handballs like that it would normally have been let go without much complaint.

I thought the referee was fine. I was impressed how quickly he clamped down on things like time wasting.

Last man, handball on the line is about the most obvious penalty you can have.

You say obvious because for those reasons, but neither of the reasons are correct. He wasn't the last man and it was nowhere near the line. It was a very high swinging corner that had gone out the other side of the 6 yard box.

[franki68]

LotusOmega375D said:

Nice of Southgate to help City and Utd fringe players improve their match fitness in an away Qualifier against the reigning Euro champions. Surely that’s not the England manager’s job? Phillips and Maguire were woeful. If they’re not starting for their clubs, then they shouldn’t be starting for their country.

Correct ,and then he tries to throw rashford to the lions .
The same rashford who was available at the World Cup who Southgate barely used.

[S600BSB]

andyA700 said:

Last man, handball on the line is about the most obvious penalty you can have.

Clear penalty.

[48k]

Sales of tin foil must be through the roof if recent posts are a anything to go by.

[dvshannow]

Good result
First half could have had a few more go in
Second half trickier but Italy away.
Job done.

[coldel]

There was a definite home bias in the officiating. Ignore the big decisions like the penalty, but look for the less obvious ones. Like where neither the assistant or the ref knew who a corner came off, paused, looked at each other, and gave another corner. This happened a number of times where every 50/50 they couldn't call went to Italy. Its a noisy aggressive atmosphere, its human nature.

England though second half went to pieces, Philips and Maguire are the product of Southgates weaknesses, he doesn't seem to be able to find it within himself to trust every player in his squad. Thats pretty demoralising for any one on the fringes.

Thats not to say he has done badly, he took one of the best England squads in living memory and has had a number of good tournaments. But to win, you need to at 100%, Southgate always seems to have them at 90% and thats the difference.

[Driver101]

coldel said:

There was a definite home bias in the officiating. Ignore the big decisions like the penalty, but look for the less obvious ones. Like where neither the assistant or the ref knew who a corner came off, paused, looked at each other, and gave another corner. This happened a number of times where every 50/50 they couldn't call went to Italy. Its a noisy aggressive atmosphere, its human nature.

England though second half went to pieces, Philips and Maguire are the product of Southgates weaknesses, he doesn't seem to be able to find it within himself to trust every player in his squad. Thats pretty demoralising for any one on the fringes.

Thats not to say he has done badly, he took one of the best England squads in living memory and has had a number of good tournaments. But to win, you need to at 100%, Southgate always seems to have them at 90% and thats the difference.

He only gave 6 freekicks against England. He let quite a bit go for both teams, but only 6 freekicks is very low for a tight hard fought game and hardly backs up a biased referee. He gave 13 freekicks against Italy.

[franki68]

Talk about refs,watch the Spain Norway highlights and the tackle on odergard by Rodri ..wtf ?

[Slowboathome]

coldel said:

Thats not to say he has done badly, he took one of the best England squads in living memory and has had a number of good tournaments. But to win, you need to at 100%, Southgate always seems to have them at 90% and thats the difference.

I wonder, based on nothing other than my penchant for cod-psychology, whether Southgate doesn't inspire enough fear in his players. He's very into loyalty, respect, being supportive. Maybe that extra 10% comes from a pre-match or half-time talk that has them stting themselves and thinking 'I don't want to be facing the boss if I underperform in this one'. Alex Ferguson had that in spades but maybe it's harder to do at national level as you don't have the same degree of power.

[coldel]

Driver101 said:

He only gave 6 freekicks against England. He let quite a bit go for both teams, but only 6 freekicks is very low for a tight hard fought game and hardly backs up a biased referee. He gave 13 freekicks against Italy.

We arent talking just about freekicks, we are talking about decisions, along with those he didnt give at all.

[coldel]

Slowboathome said:

I wonder, based on nothing other than my penchant for cod-psychology, whether Southgate doesn't inspire enough fear in his players. He's very into loyalty, respect, being supportive. Maybe that extra 10% comes from a pre-match or half-time talk that has them stting themselves and thinking 'I don't want to be facing the boss if I underperform in this one'. Alex Ferguson had that in spades but maybe it's harder to do at national level as you don't have the same degree of power.

Yes he doesn't for me look like the kind of guy, where if the team doesn't show up, they worry about getting hooked at half time. Players like Maguire can have an absolute shocking first half but then stroll in at half time without a care in the world. However, if you are a player that isn't in the Southgate fanclub you can play well and get hooked off at half time. We do seem to be missing that killer instinct.

[Slowboathome]

coldel said:

Slowboathome said:

I wonder, based on nothing other than my penchant for cod-psychology, whether Southgate doesn't inspire enough fear in his players. He's very into loyalty, respect, being supportive. Maybe that extra 10% comes from a pre-match or half-time talk that has them stting themselves and thinking 'I don't want to be facing the boss if I underperform in this one'. Alex Ferguson had that in spades but maybe it's harder to do at national level as you don't have the same degree of power.

Yes he doesn't for me look like the kind of guy, where if the team doesn't show up, they worry about getting hooked at half time. Players like Maguire can have an absolute shocking first half but then stroll in at half time without a care in the world. However, if you are a player that isn't in the Southgate fanclub you can play well and get hooked off at half time. We do seem to be missing that killer instinct.

I was struck by his openness in a Netflix interview with Toto Wolff when he said he doesn't feel he's ruthless enough. In his case, it's not just in terms of selection and tactics I think he lacks an animal quality that creates a healthy bit of fear. Clough had it - partly because he had a sharp tongue and you never knew what he'd do next, Guardiola has it, Arteta has it. Obviously it's not enough in itself but I think it is one reason why England don't quite have that edge - that little extra shot of adrenalin particularly deep into the game.

[LotusOmega375D]

Southgate fits the FA mould.

The last time they picked a permanent manager who had actually won the league in England was Don Revie, way back in 1974!

Since then, we have had Ron Greenwood, Bobby Robson, Graham Taylor, Terry Venables, Glenn Hoddle, Kevin Keegan, Sven Goran Eriksson, Steve McLaren, Fabio Capello, Roy Hodgson, Sam Allardyce and Gareth Southgate. Not a single English top flight championship between them as manager before or since they were hired by the FA.

I’m not saying a title winning manager automatically equals a great international manager, but to have not even appointed a single one after nigh on 50 years is quite incredible. To win the English top division usually requires a manager with a true winning mentality, but who might not be the easiest person to employ. Therefore the FA has steered clear of such potential managerial candidates.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

coldel said:

There was a definite home bias in the officiating. Ignore the big decisions like the penalty,

Ok, we'll ignore the big evidence and we'll focus on the small evidence.