The Official Liverpool FC Thread [Vol 17]
Discussion
jammy-git said:
wjb said:
Good job we didn't lose today, Utd are officially back now after holding us to a draw.
According to some...
I think I can hear the rubbing of hands from here.According to some...
1) Most teams won't attack them like us. Therefor it's up to them to attack, and they really struggle to to do that. Their good run under Ole was basically using pace on the counter-attack, so when teams don't attack their entire game seems to not work.
2) Playing us means their players lift the energy levels lots, I doubt this will continue against most other teams.
It's like the Chelsea game - do well against an attacking team who is a big name. Then likely disappear again after. At least that is my prediction.
I think we missed Salah - we always seem to do much worse if 1 of the top 3 is missing - for example the game earlier this season Firmino was on the bench - then how we performed afterwards. However well done to Ole - he got his tactics right against us and did (kinda) take advantage of it.
Big picture - league has started exceptionally well and a point away to United (or City, Chelsea etc) is usually a decent result.
The build up to these games is always OTT and they tend to be poor scrappy affairs - this one was no different
I thought United played pretty well given their squad but I can’t help feeling disappointed at how flat we were and that we didn’t counteract their formation by bringing on Ox and Keita earlier.
Other opponents will have watched that game and seen wingbacks messing up our style so we need a proper solution
The build up to these games is always OTT and they tend to be poor scrappy affairs - this one was no different
I thought United played pretty well given their squad but I can’t help feeling disappointed at how flat we were and that we didn’t counteract their formation by bringing on Ox and Keita earlier.
Other opponents will have watched that game and seen wingbacks messing up our style so we need a proper solution
Adam B said:
Other opponents will have watched that game and seen wingbacks messing up our style so we need a proper solution
This. The blueprint has been laid and been made public. Strange how it has taken teams this long to figure out. One possible solution would be to play Wijnaldum further up the pitch. He is attacking for Netherlands, scores goals and we need someone to push the game forward centrally, sucking in players and linking up the front 3. This in turn could free up both wingbacks to resume their normal game.
NRS said:
2) Playing us means their players lift the energy levels lots, I doubt this will continue against most other teams.
They couldn't even cope with running around for more than 70 minutes! No chance will they put in that level of effort for every other game.As you say, they'll get themselves up for the big games, but they're still a (genuine) mid-table team. I'd consider putting money on them finishing outside the top six this year.
Just watching the goals again. I think Origi (and everyone else for that matter) needs to look at that and think about what happens if he stays on his feet and challenges for the ball. It's a dilemma of sorts. So you go down, bring the ref's attention to the foul and hope he blows, whilst opening up the team to a counter or do you play on without getting the free kick but preventing the counter.
What's apparent with VAR is that the ref needs to make an absolute howler for his decision to be overturned. The foul on Origi was clear in the replays. As was Mane's handball, an area which seems much clearer than routine fouls.
What's apparent with VAR is that the ref needs to make an absolute howler for his decision to be overturned. The foul on Origi was clear in the replays. As was Mane's handball, an area which seems much clearer than routine fouls.
type-r said:
This. The blueprint has been laid and been made public. Strange how it has taken teams this long to figure out.
One possible solution would be to play Wijnaldum further up the pitch. He is attacking for Netherlands, scores goals and we need someone to push the game forward centrally, sucking in players and linking up the front 3. This in turn could free up both wingbacks to resume their normal game.
We already have a solutions, its called width. 5-3-2 or 3-5-2 struggled with width, hence when Trent and Robinson bomb on sides playing this against us fall apart, see last 10 mins for details.One possible solution would be to play Wijnaldum further up the pitch. He is attacking for Netherlands, scores goals and we need someone to push the game forward centrally, sucking in players and linking up the front 3. This in turn could free up both wingbacks to resume their normal game.
Also not having Salah allowed them to press TAA back, if Salah is there they cant because of his threat and TAA can attack.
The real time is when against sides of equal quality say City, and thats when you need Keita or OX in midfield to drive forward and hurt them, as our normal midfiled works hard but isnt that creative.
Every system gets found out sooner or later, I'm not sure why it's taken people who get paid lots of money to do it for a living so long though. Lots of people on here including me had you sussed out last season, your wingbacks provide most of your creativity and width, keep them pinned back and you've negated about 70% of Liverpool's attacking threat, your midfield just isn't that dangerous.
Sure not having Salah meant they could push on to TAA and Mane had a pretty quiet game too by his standards. Kieta actually looked decent when he came on, picking up the ball and playing some decent passes so he may be the answer. Ox I'm not so convinced about, he always suffered from consistency at Arsenal. He hasn't had a long enough run at LFC but I don't think pinning your hopes on him is the answer as long term, you just don't know if he'll come good or not.
Some of your passing was very slick but that final decent ball is often missing. I've said it before, I still think you are missing a decent attacking mid, someone who can carry the ball forward and get it to your front 3 in games where your fullbacks are pinned back. Hate to say it but you could do with getting Coutinho back.
Sure not having Salah meant they could push on to TAA and Mane had a pretty quiet game too by his standards. Kieta actually looked decent when he came on, picking up the ball and playing some decent passes so he may be the answer. Ox I'm not so convinced about, he always suffered from consistency at Arsenal. He hasn't had a long enough run at LFC but I don't think pinning your hopes on him is the answer as long term, you just don't know if he'll come good or not.
Some of your passing was very slick but that final decent ball is often missing. I've said it before, I still think you are missing a decent attacking mid, someone who can carry the ball forward and get it to your front 3 in games where your fullbacks are pinned back. Hate to say it but you could do with getting Coutinho back.
Guvernator said:
Every system gets found out sooner or later, I'm not sure why it's taken people who get paid lots of money to do it for a living so long though. Lots of people on here including me had you sussed out last season, your wingbacks provide most of your creativity and width, keep them pinned back and you've negated about 70% of Liverpool's attacking threat, your midfield just isn't that dangerous.
Sure not having Salah meant they could push on to TAA and Mane had a pretty quiet game too by his standards. Kieta actually looked decent when he came on, picking up the ball and playing some decent passes so he may be the answer. Ox I'm not so convinced about, he always suffered from consistency at Arsenal. He hasn't had a long enough run at LFC but I don't think pinning your hopes on him is the answer as long term, you just don't know if he'll come good or not.
Some of your passing was very slick but that final decent ball is often missing. I've said it before, I still think you are missing a decent attacking mid, someone who can carry the ball forward and get it to your front 3 in games where your fullbacks are pinned back. Hate to say it but you could do with getting Coutinho back.
It's not a question of being "found out", as it's obvious and has been for several seasons. The issue is having the discipline and players to negate it for 90 mins. Our issue has been the lack of a Plan B and the players to unlock the people who have the ability to cancel out Plan A. Sure not having Salah meant they could push on to TAA and Mane had a pretty quiet game too by his standards. Kieta actually looked decent when he came on, picking up the ball and playing some decent passes so he may be the answer. Ox I'm not so convinced about, he always suffered from consistency at Arsenal. He hasn't had a long enough run at LFC but I don't think pinning your hopes on him is the answer as long term, you just don't know if he'll come good or not.
Some of your passing was very slick but that final decent ball is often missing. I've said it before, I still think you are missing a decent attacking mid, someone who can carry the ball forward and get it to your front 3 in games where your fullbacks are pinned back. Hate to say it but you could do with getting Coutinho back.
type-r said:
Some other observations for yesterdays game:
- Absolutely loved it how the wall of Van Dijk and Fabinho saw Daniel James bounce of them both and left him rolling around like a little boy looking for his mum who hurt his big toe.
Both times the little s- Absolutely loved it how the wall of Van Dijk and Fabinho saw Daniel James bounce of them both and left him rolling around like a little boy looking for his mum who hurt his big toe.
t had a look around on the floor before he started creating. Ironically the second, or was it third hit was the hardest but he'd already cried wolf by then so was left to it, atleast for a while. He's so lightweight he just bounced off Fab, who's hardly a man mountain, I laughed when I saw the replay.
Guess that's what happens when your manager praises your time wasting.
Guvernator said:
Every system gets found out sooner or later, I'm not sure why it's taken people who get paid lots of money to do it for a living so long though. Lots of people on here including me had you sussed out last season, your wingbacks provide most of your creativity and width, keep them pinned back and you've negated about 70% of Liverpool's attacking threat, your midfield just isn't that dangerous.
Sure not having Salah meant they could push on to TAA and Mane had a pretty quiet game too by his standards. Kieta actually looked decent when he came on, picking up the ball and playing some decent passes so he may be the answer. Ox I'm not so convinced about, he always suffered from consistency at Arsenal. He hasn't had a long enough run at LFC but I don't think pinning your hopes on him is the answer as long term, you just don't know if he'll come good or not.
Some of your passing was very slick but that final decent ball is often missing. I've said it before, I still think you are missing a decent attacking mid, someone who can carry the ball forward and get it to your front 3 in games where your fullbacks are pinned back. Hate to say it but you could do with getting Coutinho back.
That's that then, we'll never win another game and your lot will be heading back down the M6 next weekend after a 5 nil drubbing. Sure not having Salah meant they could push on to TAA and Mane had a pretty quiet game too by his standards. Kieta actually looked decent when he came on, picking up the ball and playing some decent passes so he may be the answer. Ox I'm not so convinced about, he always suffered from consistency at Arsenal. He hasn't had a long enough run at LFC but I don't think pinning your hopes on him is the answer as long term, you just don't know if he'll come good or not.
Some of your passing was very slick but that final decent ball is often missing. I've said it before, I still think you are missing a decent attacking mid, someone who can carry the ball forward and get it to your front 3 in games where your fullbacks are pinned back. Hate to say it but you could do with getting Coutinho back.
ferrisbueller said:
It's not a question of being "found out", as it's obvious and has been for several seasons. The issue is having the discipline and players to negate it for 90 mins. Our issue has been the lack of a Plan B and the players to unlock the people who have the ability to cancel out Plan A.
Yeah I guess spotting it and doing something about it are two different things but still, you'd think they'd be at least half a dozen teams in the PL who could do it before now, just surprised it's taken so long.Credit to Klopp, he did try to change things up where lots of other managers seem to stubbornly persist with something that's clearly not working.
You are not likely to get anyone in Jan unless you put in a cheeky bid for Eriksen but I don't think he wants to stay in the UK, his heart seems set on sunnier climes. I think next summer though, another attacking mid who can set up play plus chip in with 10-12 goals per season is a must for you.
revrange said:
Also not having Salah allowed them to press TAA back, if Salah is there they cant because of his threat and TAA can attack.
Which is why some of us were banging on about getting quality cover fro the front 3. We cannot assume Mane and Salah will play every game.I like Origi as an impact sub as he is more direct and forceful than the usual 3 which helps when trying something different against a stubborn defense, just not sure he works starting some games
Yea, of course it's so easy to stop Liverpool. Just stop our two full backs roaming up the wing and that's all it takes. 
Seriously. If it was that easy, do you not think Poch would have worked that out in the CL league final. Or any other top class manager we've played in the last 2-3 years?!
Truth is we have some pretty complicated passing patterns. Yes, we rely on our full backs more than most teams to provide width and attacking opportunities. But that doesn't mean they are our only way of creating attacking opportunities.
Despite the lack of creativity in the middle, they are effective at moving the ball from defence and getting it into the front three. They are effective at supporting attacks. And how many times have we seen either Matip or VVD ping the ball into one of the front three, or behind in to the channels for someone to chase.
Some of you should stop playing FIFA!
Seriously. If it was that easy, do you not think Poch would have worked that out in the CL league final. Or any other top class manager we've played in the last 2-3 years?!
Truth is we have some pretty complicated passing patterns. Yes, we rely on our full backs more than most teams to provide width and attacking opportunities. But that doesn't mean they are our only way of creating attacking opportunities.
Despite the lack of creativity in the middle, they are effective at moving the ball from defence and getting it into the front three. They are effective at supporting attacks. And how many times have we seen either Matip or VVD ping the ball into one of the front three, or behind in to the channels for someone to chase.
Some of you should stop playing FIFA!
jammy-git said:
Yea, of course it's so easy to stop Liverpool. Just stop our two full backs roaming up the wing and that's all it takes.
Seriously. If it was that easy, do you not think Poch would have worked that out in the CL league final. Or any other top class manager we've played in the last 2-3 years?!
Truth is we have some pretty complicated passing patterns. Yes, we rely on our full backs more than most teams to provide width and attacking opportunities. But that doesn't mean they are our only way of creating attacking opportunities.
Despite the lack of creativity in the middle, they are effective at moving the ball from defence and getting it into the front three. They are effective at supporting attacks. And how many times have we seen either Matip or VVD ping the ball into one of the front three, or behind in to the channels for someone to chase.
Some of you should stop playing FIFA!
Surely you're not suggesting some people here don't know what they're talking about...? Seriously. If it was that easy, do you not think Poch would have worked that out in the CL league final. Or any other top class manager we've played in the last 2-3 years?!
Truth is we have some pretty complicated passing patterns. Yes, we rely on our full backs more than most teams to provide width and attacking opportunities. But that doesn't mean they are our only way of creating attacking opportunities.
Despite the lack of creativity in the middle, they are effective at moving the ball from defence and getting it into the front three. They are effective at supporting attacks. And how many times have we seen either Matip or VVD ping the ball into one of the front three, or behind in to the channels for someone to chase.
Some of you should stop playing FIFA!
It also can't have been obvious for several seasons, as Klopp was "found out" previously, but changed things up and improved things even more (do people not remember us dropping points and the Spuds saying he was "found out" before)? Just Klopp is a good enough manager that he was able to update things once it was worked out, and hence us doing so well again after. That's where Brendan is probably lacking a bit - he wasn't able to re-invent us once clubs worked out how to counter the tactics (plus losing vital players had an effect too).
I'd guess there is also very few teams that could do what United did. Basically they bypassed the midfield and use the pace of their strikers to be a threat on the counter attack. Unless you have that pace/quality to pass the midfield press then the tactics used yesterday are basically impossible. Was it basically not a variation of what they did in the draw last year, from memory? Add in a bad day for us, missing Salah, and then it's not going to work every week.
I'd guess there is also very few teams that could do what United did. Basically they bypassed the midfield and use the pace of their strikers to be a threat on the counter attack. Unless you have that pace/quality to pass the midfield press then the tactics used yesterday are basically impossible. Was it basically not a variation of what they did in the draw last year, from memory? Add in a bad day for us, missing Salah, and then it's not going to work every week.
Well that didn't take long, just offering an opinion that is shared by many including lots of professional pundits and even some on here but if you don't agree with it, just mention the CL final to make it all go away.
Not sure why I bother trying to engage in football conversation tbh, you are obviously the bestest and nothing can be done to improve it.
FFS
Not sure why I bother trying to engage in football conversation tbh, you are obviously the bestest and nothing can be done to improve it.
FFS
Guvernator said:
Well that didn't take long, just offering an opinion that is shared by many including lots of professional pundits and even some on here but if you don't agree with it, just mention the CL final to make it all go away.
Not sure why I bother trying to engage in football conversation tbh, you are obviously the bestest and nothing can be done to improve it.
FFS
It's a debate - he disagrees with you. You can disagree with him and give reasons, rather than being so sensitive.Not sure why I bother trying to engage in football conversation tbh, you are obviously the bestest and nothing can be done to improve it.
FFS
Either most professional managers are idiots not to have seen what you did for several seasons (is that likely?), or it's actually not easy/possible to do. You'd suspect that 1 loss in the last x number of league games (at least 1.25 seasons) would suggest it's not a simple case of sussing out our tactics and that's it now?
NRS said:
It's a debate - he disagrees with you. You can disagree with him and give reasons, rather than being so sensitive.
Either most professional managers are idiots not to have seen what you did for several seasons (is that likely?), or it's actually not easy/possible to do. You'd suspect that 1 loss in the last x number of games (at least 1.25 seasons) would suggest it's not a simple case of sussing out our tactics and that's it now?
Disagreement I have no problem with, the manner in which it's done is the same crap and the reason a lot of other fans don't venture in here. Luckily I have much thicker skin so not being sensitive, just pointing out it's a bit unnecessary, Just a thought but It's more than possible to make a point without resorting to passive aggressiveness or mentioning the CL.Either most professional managers are idiots not to have seen what you did for several seasons (is that likely?), or it's actually not easy/possible to do. You'd suspect that 1 loss in the last x number of games (at least 1.25 seasons) would suggest it's not a simple case of sussing out our tactics and that's it now?
Of course it's not easy but are we saying Ole is a genius then and the current Man Utd squad are the best team to do it? They've been the most successful at stopping you this season so far by specifically targeting your wingbacks and stopping them getting up the field.
Not saying I or anyone else on here are tactical geniuses but your play style has been pretty obvious for a while so surprising it's taken so long for someone to target that specific area.
Guvernator said:
Disagreement I have no problem with, the manner in which it's done is the same crap and the reason a lot of other fans don't venture in here. Luckily I have much thicker skin so not being sensitive, just pointing out it's a bit unnecessary, Just a thought but It's more than possible to make a point without resorting to passive aggressiveness or mentioning the CL.
Reading the responses back only frogs was a bit unnecessary, most of the others were just debating IMHOAnd your basic premise was flawed, everyone in football knows the attacking width that TAA/AR provide, and that wing backs are one solution - having the personnel and discipline to do it, without weakening other areas make it easier said than done
Arsenal tried something similar against us with 5 at the back. And they failed miserably.
I don’t think it’s necessarily the system, more without Salah in front of him to pull the full back out of position and create some space, Trent struggled to get in to decent crossing positions... and instead decided to try and hoof it in to the box. Not one of his better games.
Just an off day IMO. If it was that simple to stop us playing others would have done it by now.
I don’t think it’s necessarily the system, more without Salah in front of him to pull the full back out of position and create some space, Trent struggled to get in to decent crossing positions... and instead decided to try and hoof it in to the box. Not one of his better games.
Just an off day IMO. If it was that simple to stop us playing others would have done it by now.
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