The Official Manchester United Thread (Vol 11)
Discussion
Challo said:
Just a general point but is there a chance of coming back if he is a changed man? He is back with the women in question, and expecting a baby together. What if he worked with professional people to turn his life around, got treatment for any issues he has, agrees to work with charity so support women beaten by partners? Or can he never be forgiven?
I mean in general society we forgive people from various terrible crimes they have committed. Murderers can seem to turn their life around? Many of footballers have done horrible things and still can have a career it seems.
What he did was horrific, and should never happen to anyone.
I see 3 key aspects to this which influence my thinking;I mean in general society we forgive people from various terrible crimes they have committed. Murderers can seem to turn their life around? Many of footballers have done horrible things and still can have a career it seems.
What he did was horrific, and should never happen to anyone.
1. Whilst the images of the young lady are distressing, we've seen absolutely zero proof whatsoever that he inflicted those injuries. If there was any proof of this he would have been prosecuted.
2. IF (big IF as it's not proven) he did it, there are many top flight footballers who have done FAR worse. Not to say that IF he did it it was a terrible thing to do. But it would be quite unusual to banish him from playing again when amongst other footballers we've seen those who have killed people drink driving playing at the top level, and those who have actually been convicted of crimes and spent time in jail playing at the top level.
3. IF (as above big IF) he did it, and the young lady has forgiven him and is having a baby with him, I think the fans could forgive him too. He is a young kid, we've all done stupid things when young (albeit to different extents) and we learn from them and grow up and become better people.
I see absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be back playing for us in my opinion - unless behind the scenes he is saying to people yeah I did it, I don't give a f
k and I'd do it again. In which case I'd sack him off. Completely get other people have wildly differing views to this, and that's fair enough of course.
simon800 said:
Challo said:
Just a general point but is there a chance of coming back if he is a changed man? He is back with the women in question, and expecting a baby together. What if he worked with professional people to turn his life around, got treatment for any issues he has, agrees to work with charity so support women beaten by partners? Or can he never be forgiven?
I mean in general society we forgive people from various terrible crimes they have committed. Murderers can seem to turn their life around? Many of footballers have done horrible things and still can have a career it seems.
What he did was horrific, and should never happen to anyone.
I see 3 key aspects to this which influence my thinking;I mean in general society we forgive people from various terrible crimes they have committed. Murderers can seem to turn their life around? Many of footballers have done horrible things and still can have a career it seems.
What he did was horrific, and should never happen to anyone.
1. Whilst the images of the young lady are distressing, we've seen absolutely zero proof whatsoever that he inflicted those injuries. If there was any proof of this he would have been prosecuted.
2. IF (big IF as it's not proven) he did it, there are many top flight footballers who have done FAR worse. Not to say that IF he did it it was a terrible thing to do. But it would be quite unusual to banish him from playing again when amongst other footballers we've seen those who have killed people drink driving playing at the top level, and those who have actually been convicted of crimes and spent time in jail playing at the top level.
3. IF (as above big IF) he did it, and the young lady has forgiven him and is having a baby with him, I think the fans could forgive him too. He is a young kid, we've all done stupid things when young (albeit to different extents) and we learn from them and grow up and become better people.
I see absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be back playing for us in my opinion - unless behind the scenes he is saying to people yeah I did it, I don't give a f
k and I'd do it again. In which case I'd sack him off. Completely get other people have wildly differing views to this, and that's fair enough of course.
soupdragon1 said:
I think its worth pointing out that we didn't bring our A game either. Our passing and general sharpness was lacklustre yet we were a crossbar away from taking it to extra time against the same team that hammered the serial CL winners Madrid just a short time ago.
The main difference between the 2 teams for me is squad depth for a full season campaign. They have the better 1st eleven and obviously a great bench but a good summer window and we could narrow that gap a fair chunk. City already have a great squad which makes it more difficult for them to get better so at least we've got room to grow into.
we had 3 key players missing and that utter wimp sancho bottling out of every challenge and Eriksen huffing and puffing so considering that it was not that bad.The main difference between the 2 teams for me is squad depth for a full season campaign. They have the better 1st eleven and obviously a great bench but a good summer window and we could narrow that gap a fair chunk. City already have a great squad which makes it more difficult for them to get better so at least we've got room to grow into.
City have the best team in the world at the moment as the usual suspects Barca,Real,Bayern are all going through changes and Liverpool just lost it this season.
Look at the champs league we have a team with 3 players who weren't good enough for United when we were really s
t in the champs league final ffs , a year after the worst team to ever win it won it.GTO-3R said:
I look at it and think...If he'd done that to my sister or even spoke to her like the audio showed, could I forgive him? No would be the answer, so he can move on for me.
Yep."Shut the f
k up and put your legs up""Mason I don't want to have sex"
"I don't care shut the f
k up and put your legs up" Whether he was charged with anything, whether they're back together etc is irrelevant. I'd not be able to look by that, and I'd imagine most others would be the same, though I'm not an MU fan.
Worrying from Simon there.
simon800 said:
I see 3 key aspects to this which influence my thinking;
1. Whilst the images of the young lady are distressing, we've seen absolutely zero proof whatsoever that he inflicted those injuries. If there was any proof of this he would have been prosecuted.
2. IF (big IF as it's not proven) he did it, there are many top flight footballers who have done FAR worse. Not to say that IF he did it it was a terrible thing to do. But it would be quite unusual to banish him from playing again when amongst other footballers we've seen those who have killed people drink driving playing at the top level, and those who have actually been convicted of crimes and spent time in jail playing at the top level.
3. IF (as above big IF) he did it, and the young lady has forgiven him and is having a baby with him, I think the fans could forgive him too. He is a young kid, we've all done stupid things when young (albeit to different extents) and we learn from them and grow up and become better people.
I see absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be back playing for us in my opinion - unless behind the scenes he is saying to people yeah I did it, I don't give a fk and I'd do it again. In which case I'd sack him off.
Completely get other people have wildly differing views to this, and that's fair enough of course.
1. The photos and audio showed it in perfect clarity. She withdrew the allegations, as she was the victim it would make it difficult (but not impossible) to get a conviction. The CPS have to balance the probability of conviction with the evidence they have at hand. 1. Whilst the images of the young lady are distressing, we've seen absolutely zero proof whatsoever that he inflicted those injuries. If there was any proof of this he would have been prosecuted.
2. IF (big IF as it's not proven) he did it, there are many top flight footballers who have done FAR worse. Not to say that IF he did it it was a terrible thing to do. But it would be quite unusual to banish him from playing again when amongst other footballers we've seen those who have killed people drink driving playing at the top level, and those who have actually been convicted of crimes and spent time in jail playing at the top level.
3. IF (as above big IF) he did it, and the young lady has forgiven him and is having a baby with him, I think the fans could forgive him too. He is a young kid, we've all done stupid things when young (albeit to different extents) and we learn from them and grow up and become better people.
I see absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be back playing for us in my opinion - unless behind the scenes he is saying to people yeah I did it, I don't give a f
k and I'd do it again. In which case I'd sack him off. Completely get other people have wildly differing views to this, and that's fair enough of course.
2. That’s not a reason to let people off anything. Hitler did far worse than anyone else in the past century. Should everyone get a free pass as a result?
3. You can look at it as a cynic, or you can look, at it as a coercion aspect, or the social backgrounds of both. Both are from tough neighbourhoods, domestic violence is often a thing in those neighbourhoods and many women (and men) put up with verbal and physical abuse yet refuse to leave the person doing it to them. There is also the aspect that money talks and the harsh reality of a normal tough life vs a life of a millionaire is often a deciding factor and the latter is quite attractive.
Equally, the fact it’s normalised means he could have learnt to behave poorly from an early age, so needs educating, possibly United let him down there. But then there’s the aspect of footballers being above the law. Many seem to get away with things that can give others a feeling of invincibility.
My opinion is just a personal one, I’m not in favour of hanging people out to dry without a fair trial, but when there is damning evidence, then my moral compass tells me that the decision on who they are is already done.
jammy-git said:
This should never be the reason to look passed a crime. "It's OK because this other person did something worse" is such a stupid take.
I don't think I said "it's ok"....did I?I simply outlined in my 2nd of 3 points that it seems somewhat unusual (you can check, that's literally what I wrote) that a crime at a certain level would attract a certain level of punishment, yet a crime at a lower level would attract a more severe punishment.
If football is saying "killing kids is fine, you can continue your career but speaking like a complete
to a woman isn't fine, your career must end" than that seems a highly inconsistent application of football's moral compass in my opinion. That doesn't mean in any way "it's ok"....
LF5335 said:
3. You can look at it as a cynic, or you can look, at it as a coercion aspect, or the social backgrounds of both. Both are from tough neighbourhoods, domestic violence is often a thing in those neighbourhoods and many women (and men) put up with verbal and physical abuse yet refuse to leave the person doing it to them. There is also the aspect that money talks and the harsh reality of a normal tough life vs a life of a millionaire is often a deciding factor and the latter is quite attractive.
Equally, the fact it’s normalised means he could have learnt to behave poorly from an early age, so needs educating, possibly United let him down there. But then there’s the aspect of footballers being above the law. Many seem to get away with things that can give others a feeling of invincibility.
My opinion is just a personal one, I’m not in favour of hanging people out to dry without a fair trial, but when there is damning evidence, then my moral compass tells me that the decision on who they are is already done.
Despite our overall view on the subject ending in different places, I have to say the quoted bit above is all completely fair, eloquently put and I understand your view Equally, the fact it’s normalised means he could have learnt to behave poorly from an early age, so needs educating, possibly United let him down there. But then there’s the aspect of footballers being above the law. Many seem to get away with things that can give others a feeling of invincibility.
My opinion is just a personal one, I’m not in favour of hanging people out to dry without a fair trial, but when there is damning evidence, then my moral compass tells me that the decision on who they are is already done.
simon800 said:
Despite our overall view on the subject ending in different places, I have to say the quoted bit above is all completely fair, eloquently put and I understand your view
Thanks, I know we often disagree / agree on things, but this one is always going to polarise opinion. I’ve tried to be as balanced as possible and if (now there’s a big if) he does return then it will take some convincing to win me over. There is a very long road ahead for him, no matter what happens if he chooses to continue playing in Britain. He will be crucified by opposition fans and probably won’t have the support of our fans, that Beckham, or Ronaldo got after messing up on international duties. Does he have the required thickness of skin, or attitude to withstand the level of abuse and media scrutiny he will receive? That’s a huge factor in deciding whether it would be possible for him to return too. simon800 said:
He is a young kid, we've all done stupid things when young (albeit to different extents) and we learn from them and grow up and become better people.
I see absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be back playing for us in my opinion - unless behind the scenes he is saying to people yeah I did it, I don't give a fk and I'd do it again. In which case I'd sack him off.
Beating your girlfriend up and raping her are a bit more than the stupid things we all do when we’re young.. it’s normalising with that sort of attitude that perpetuates it.I see absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be back playing for us in my opinion - unless behind the scenes he is saying to people yeah I did it, I don't give a f
k and I'd do it again. In which case I'd sack him off. Like racism, it might be cultural within certain parts of society, or age groups, but there’s been so much publicity around the subject over the past 10 years or so that violence against women should be unacceptable for someone his age.
He’s only got away with it because she won’t be a witness, and he’ll (rightfully) get slaughtered by opposition fans every single time he steps on to the pitch.
Will probably also find it difficult to socialise if he starts playing again as more people will know his face and he’ll get provoked every time he’s out in public… bars, clubs, restaurants… someone will be shouting rapist at him, or whispering ‘that’s the bloke who raped his girlfriend’ behind his back.
I’d be surprised if a club like United were so desperate for a striker that they’d allow him to play for them again…
In fact I’d be surprised if any big club anywhere in the world would take him… the publicity storm would be a nightmare.
There is a flip side to that. Bear in mind what I’ve written above, before jumping on me.
He is an employee of United, as his employer they have a duty of care to him and his mental health, not just paying his salary, so there will have been a lot of behind the scenes work carried out.
The irony of the abuse from opposition fans will be that some of the most vocal in those fans will probably be just as guilty as he is of violence towards women or others.
Lots of foreign countries have more medieval attitudes to domestic violence unfortunately. His actions wouldn’t raise much of an eyebrow in some of those, even the culture in some of the countries with the higher level leagues such as Spain or Italy are still very much about men and manliness and women are often treated poorly in daily life. Maybe not to the extent of violence being deemed acceptable, but it’s certainly not got the social stigma that it has here.
He is an employee of United, as his employer they have a duty of care to him and his mental health, not just paying his salary, so there will have been a lot of behind the scenes work carried out.
The irony of the abuse from opposition fans will be that some of the most vocal in those fans will probably be just as guilty as he is of violence towards women or others.
Lots of foreign countries have more medieval attitudes to domestic violence unfortunately. His actions wouldn’t raise much of an eyebrow in some of those, even the culture in some of the countries with the higher level leagues such as Spain or Italy are still very much about men and manliness and women are often treated poorly in daily life. Maybe not to the extent of violence being deemed acceptable, but it’s certainly not got the social stigma that it has here.
Chris Stott said:
Beating your girlfriend up and raping her are a bit more than the stupid things we all do when we’re young.. it’s normalising with that sort of attitude that perpetuates it.
Like racism, it might be cultural within certain parts of society, or age groups, but there’s been so much publicity around the subject over the past 10 years or so that violence against women should be unacceptable for someone his age.
He’s only got away with it because she won’t be a witness, and he’ll (rightfully) get slaughtered by opposition fans every single time he steps on to the pitch.
Will probably also find it difficult to socialise if he starts playing again as more people will know his face and he’ll get provoked every time he’s out in public… bars, clubs, restaurants… someone will be shouting rapist at him, or whispering ‘that’s the bloke who raped his girlfriend’ behind his back.
I’d be surprised if a club like United were so desperate for a striker that they’d allow him to play for them again…
In fact I’d be surprised if any big club anywhere in the world would take him… the publicity storm would be a nightmare.
Just to be clear we have heard the tape and seen the pictures but I think you need to be careful stating he is a rapist. It might be in your opinion that he is, but there is nothing to state that he has or is a rapist Like racism, it might be cultural within certain parts of society, or age groups, but there’s been so much publicity around the subject over the past 10 years or so that violence against women should be unacceptable for someone his age.
He’s only got away with it because she won’t be a witness, and he’ll (rightfully) get slaughtered by opposition fans every single time he steps on to the pitch.
Will probably also find it difficult to socialise if he starts playing again as more people will know his face and he’ll get provoked every time he’s out in public… bars, clubs, restaurants… someone will be shouting rapist at him, or whispering ‘that’s the bloke who raped his girlfriend’ behind his back.
I’d be surprised if a club like United were so desperate for a striker that they’d allow him to play for them again…
In fact I’d be surprised if any big club anywhere in the world would take him… the publicity storm would be a nightmare.
LF5335 said:
There is a flip side to that. Bear in mind what I’ve written above, before jumping on me.
He is an employee of United, as his employer they have a duty of care to him and his mental health, not just paying his salary, so there will have been a lot of behind the scenes work carried out.
The irony of the abuse from opposition fans will be that some of the most vocal in those fans will probably be just as guilty as he is of violence towards women or others.
Lots of foreign countries have more medieval attitudes to domestic violence unfortunately. His actions wouldn’t raise much of an eyebrow in some of those, even the culture in some of the countries with the higher level leagues such as Spain or Italy are still very much about men and manliness and women are often treated poorly in daily life. Maybe not to the extent of violence being deemed acceptable, but it’s certainly not got the social stigma that it has here.
Spain and Italy may be a bit behind the Uk culturally, but spain for example, has passed very strong laws with regard to violence against women following some well publicised incidents. There’s no way he could play here… Any Spanish team signing him would get horrendous press a coverage.He is an employee of United, as his employer they have a duty of care to him and his mental health, not just paying his salary, so there will have been a lot of behind the scenes work carried out.
The irony of the abuse from opposition fans will be that some of the most vocal in those fans will probably be just as guilty as he is of violence towards women or others.
Lots of foreign countries have more medieval attitudes to domestic violence unfortunately. His actions wouldn’t raise much of an eyebrow in some of those, even the culture in some of the countries with the higher level leagues such as Spain or Italy are still very much about men and manliness and women are often treated poorly in daily life. Maybe not to the extent of violence being deemed acceptable, but it’s certainly not got the social stigma that it has here.
He may be able to go to Saudi… where his attitude to women won’t be an issue.
Challo said:
Just to be clear we have heard the tape and seen the pictures but I think you need to be careful stating he is a rapist. It might be in your opinion that he is, but there is nothing to state that he has or is a rapist
Doesn’t matter what’s been proven in a court… he’s tarred with the brush now. Everyone’s heard the tapes and knows what he is. He’ll get crucified by the fans.
Chris Stott said:
Spain and Italy may be a bit behind the Uk culturally, but spain for example, has passed very strong laws with regard to violence against women following some well publicised incidents. There’s no way he could play here… Any Spanish team signing him would get horrendous press a coverage.
He may be able to go to Saudi… where his attitude to women won’t be an issue.
Spain has some strict laws around racism too. How’s that going for them? What is illegal and what is accepted socially are sadly often two different things. He may be able to go to Saudi… where his attitude to women won’t be an issue.
LF5335 said:
Spain has some strict laws around racism too. How’s that going for them? What is illegal and what is accepted socially are sadly often two different things.
That’s not the point. The point is no Spanish side will want the PR storm that will explode the minute they sign him… the rehashing of what he did and the accompanying accusations of supporting violence against women.
Won’t happen.
I can’t comment with the same surety about Italy as I don’t live there so I’m not as aware of how their press behaves, but I suspect it won’t be much different.
Chris Stott said:
That’s not the point.
The point is no Spanish side will want the PR storm that will explode the minute they sign him… the rehashing of what he did and the accompanying accusations of supporting violence against women.
Won’t happen.
I can’t comment with the same surety about Italy as I don’t live there so I’m not as aware of how their press behaves, but I suspect it won’t be much different.
It was an accurate statement of the culture in Spain though. I didn’t say he would definitely go there, I said abroad may be more tolerant of him and what’s happened. Italy is very much as I described. The point is no Spanish side will want the PR storm that will explode the minute they sign him… the rehashing of what he did and the accompanying accusations of supporting violence against women.
Won’t happen.
I can’t comment with the same surety about Italy as I don’t live there so I’m not as aware of how their press behaves, but I suspect it won’t be much different.
Chris Stott said:
That’s not the point.
The point is no Spanish side will want the PR storm that will explode the minute they sign him… the rehashing of what he did and the accompanying accusations of supporting violence against women.
Won’t happen.
I can’t comment with the same surety about Italy as I don’t live there so I’m not as aware of how their press behaves, but I suspect it won’t be much different.
And yet Man Utd happily signed Ronaldo…..interestingThe point is no Spanish side will want the PR storm that will explode the minute they sign him… the rehashing of what he did and the accompanying accusations of supporting violence against women.
Won’t happen.
I can’t comment with the same surety about Italy as I don’t live there so I’m not as aware of how their press behaves, but I suspect it won’t be much different.
simon800 said:
And yet Man Utd happily signed Ronaldo…..interesting
How is that the same? There was an accusation against Ronaldo, but no real evidence… certainly no tapes of him actually in the act.
A few weeks ago, when Klopp had his rant at the 4th official, fans of other clubs (inc. United) were up in arms about how unacceptable it was, and how Klopp needed to be made an example of.
That’s a grown man merely shouting at another grown man, with no threat of violence.
Now we have a United fan defending a player where there’s pretty much irrefutable evidence of sexual violence against a young woman.
Chris Stott said:
Now we have a United fan defending a player where there’s pretty much irrefutable evidence of sexual violence against a young woman.
Clearly you know something the Crown Prosecution Service doesn’t. You really ought to pass your dossier of irrefutable evidence over to them. Gassing Station | Football | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff