Discussion
ScoobieWRX said:
The same can be said for higher mileage petrol boxer units suffering from piston slap, which is inevitable eventually. Said carbon build-up keeping piston slap nicely cushioned and barely audible, along comes LPG, then you get nice sparkly cylinders to use your analogy, thereafter you get a noisy/slappy petrol engine even when warmed up. No different.
I would rather hold on to my nice quiet barely piston slap audible super quiet when warmed boxer unit with cylinder carbon deposits all in place to give me another 50K miles of whisper quiet good service.
I'm pretty sure if LPG was that good, with a solid proven case for initial outlay v long term returns for your average mileage car, and it was marketed in the same way as electric and hybrid cars have been, then there might be better take up. However, it's been around for long enough, everyone has heard of LPG, and yet educated or not about the pros and cons of LPG, it's still very little used.
Conversely, hybrid and electric cars, compared to LPG haven't been out very long at all and yet they seem to be gaining in popularity quickly amongst those educated and uneducated about electric/hybrid vehicles.
Why aren't those looking for an eco-friendly alternative to petrol/diesel only cars going for LPG instead of electric/hybrid vehicles. It would be considerably cheaper to convert your car to run LPG than buying one of these newfangled efforts.
I think in all honesty it's very little to do with having a pressurised container in the boot baring in mind when hydrogen cars come around in the mainstream, their pressurised tanks make LPG tanks look like paper bags, and you can bet your very last pound that Hydrogen will take off like a rocket, so to speak, and be snapped up by many uneducated about hydrogen!!
LPG has had its day, leave it for your barbecue....Roll on Hydrogen!! In the meantime, while waiting for hydrogen please enjoy your petrol and diesel while it's still available, and Long Live 99RON!!
That's a splendid reply...hitting all nails firmly on the head. The current uptake of electic/hybrids is down to the very effective marketing from the manufacturers. It's certainly not down to financial supprt from UK Government. It will be interesting to see the take-up of the new BMW i3/i8 project. Somehow I think it will suit the London-set very well...similar to the bicycle schemes in our capitol cities. You can't move in Paris without being run over by a cafe creme coloured bike.I would rather hold on to my nice quiet barely piston slap audible super quiet when warmed boxer unit with cylinder carbon deposits all in place to give me another 50K miles of whisper quiet good service.
I'm pretty sure if LPG was that good, with a solid proven case for initial outlay v long term returns for your average mileage car, and it was marketed in the same way as electric and hybrid cars have been, then there might be better take up. However, it's been around for long enough, everyone has heard of LPG, and yet educated or not about the pros and cons of LPG, it's still very little used.
Conversely, hybrid and electric cars, compared to LPG haven't been out very long at all and yet they seem to be gaining in popularity quickly amongst those educated and uneducated about electric/hybrid vehicles.
Why aren't those looking for an eco-friendly alternative to petrol/diesel only cars going for LPG instead of electric/hybrid vehicles. It would be considerably cheaper to convert your car to run LPG than buying one of these newfangled efforts.
I think in all honesty it's very little to do with having a pressurised container in the boot baring in mind when hydrogen cars come around in the mainstream, their pressurised tanks make LPG tanks look like paper bags, and you can bet your very last pound that Hydrogen will take off like a rocket, so to speak, and be snapped up by many uneducated about hydrogen!!
LPG has had its day, leave it for your barbecue....Roll on Hydrogen!! In the meantime, while waiting for hydrogen please enjoy your petrol and diesel while it's still available, and Long Live 99RON!!
Hydrogen...looks like we have the same enthusiasm here. As previously mentioned I want to be an early adopter/user of this once a proven system is commercially available. When ready, I already have in plan to buy an appropriate higher powered car that will be a longterm keeper. If there are manufacturer incentives available at the time I'll consider a new car. I turned 47 this year and just hope they get a bloody move-on with final system testing and UK/Euro approvals; this normally being a 2-3year process.
I've contemplated doing stupid things like cracking water to syphon off the hydrogen in-car to add to my inlet manifold but you cannot make enough of the stuff to even make the very slightest of differences.
I turn 47 next year so i hope they get hydrogen sorted in my lifetime and before i've rotted away and am too far gone to even press the loud pedal. I quite fancy going out in a blaze of hydrogen fuelled glory in my rocket powered scooby
I turn 47 next year so i hope they get hydrogen sorted in my lifetime and before i've rotted away and am too far gone to even press the loud pedal. I quite fancy going out in a blaze of hydrogen fuelled glory in my rocket powered scooby
ScoobieWRX said:
I've contemplated doing stupid things like cracking water to syphon off the hydrogen in-car to add to my inlet manifold but you cannot make enough of the stuff to even make the very slightest of differences.
I turn 47 next year so i hope they get hydrogen sorted in my lifetime and before i've rotted away and am too far gone to even press the loud pedal. I quite fancy going out in a blaze of hydrogen fuelled glory in my rocket powered scooby
I turn 47 next year so i hope they get hydrogen sorted in my lifetime and before i've rotted away and am too far gone to even press the loud pedal. I quite fancy going out in a blaze of hydrogen fuelled glory in my rocket powered scooby
being able to micro-produce in the right volume for domestic use and by-passing government controlled fuel supply. appropriate/safe storage vessels are readily available i.e domestic LPG tanks...the challenge is production. there was a tv documentary some while ago where the sun's solar radiation was being used, focused via metallic coated satelite dish with the concentrated thermal energy powering the hydrogen separator. it was large, but designed for larger volume production. the design team were aiming to size reduce this technology for domestic use.francis, you may also like the following...it's VERY cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag4iy6yg4R4
Weren't those guys in the USA trying to crack hydrogen from the air though? They were super-heating it in a chamber with those parabolic reflectors?
BTW...That video was cool. And all you need is a particle accelerator, and he made one. Awesome!!
BTW...That video was cool. And all you need is a particle accelerator, and he made one. Awesome!!
Edited by ScoobieWRX on Thursday 6th December 20:01
v8250 said:
Whilst you are correct in saying an LPG conversion's viability is dependent upon annual mileage, you are absolutely wrong in stating "to commit to the vehicle for 3 years or lose a heap of cash". You clearly miss the point of why so many people very successfully convert to LPG...and your website link is quite ineffective as it does not show direct petrol-to-diesel-to-LPG comparables. Until you have real data your view is purely emotive & non-factual.
As a note regarding vehicle value...there's a very large educated market in the UK of dedicated LPG users who have the knowledge and experience of running LPG fuelled cars for many years. The majority of these would never return to the excessively over-taxed car fuel alternatives. Their issue is that there are simply not enough converted cars readily available to purchase...Autotrader has circa' 379,000 used cars available today - only 209 of these are LPG.
The OP said the car was a bit thirsty. The website link was just to illustrate that the savings over 5 or so mpg is not often a dealbreaker. As a note regarding vehicle value...there's a very large educated market in the UK of dedicated LPG users who have the knowledge and experience of running LPG fuelled cars for many years. The majority of these would never return to the excessively over-taxed car fuel alternatives. Their issue is that there are simply not enough converted cars readily available to purchase...Autotrader has circa' 379,000 used cars available today - only 209 of these are LPG.
If you sink several thousand pounds into a car, you're really committing yourself to it until you can get the money back.
mmcd87 said:
If you sink several thousand pounds into a car, you're really committing yourself to it until you can get the money back.
It is this perception that makes people 'believe' an LPG conversion is not viable. Firstly, an LPG conversion is not 'several thousand pounds'. A very high quality proven conversion LPG system supplied by one of the top three manufacturers and installed by a reputable installation company is £1400. Payback is not acheived by a 5mpg improvement in fuel efficiency. As previously confirmed, the payback comes from a properly calculated analysis based on the system cost, running cost [annual service + valvelube top up], LPG to existing fuel differential, and annual mileage.If an owner is driving circa' 5k miles p.a. then it's highly unlikely they'll see short term payback. The average UK annual mileage is 12-14k miles p.a. Again as previously confirmed I have completed a very thorough analysis on a comparable car; Saab 9-5 Aero Hot Estate. The payback for my minimum annual mileage of 15k miles is within 12mths. Some years I may drive 20k miles. The analysis is also based upon comparable to an existing car owned...the VW Passat 2.0Tdi 170bhp which always gives 48.7mpg average...no matter how hard it is driven.
The result is as previously stated
Annual Mileage: 15000
Yr.1 Saving £172.38
Yr.2 Saving £1372.38
Yr.3 Saving £1372.38 [ditto for all years thereafter subject to annual mileage, petrol & LPG price/ltr...]
The comparable process is important as this gives you, the car driver, clear direct data of whether it's makes financial sense to keep an existing fuel efficient but not very exciting car, Or, have the best of both world's with a car that has some ooomph AND be fuel efficient at the same time.
Reference 'you're really committing yourself to it until you can get the money back'. It appears you are not from an engineering/project management background. If so, you would understand that when calculating financial investment and the risk analysis it is the ROI to CAPEX figures that are important. This should also include a line-calc' showing an optional capital resale value. In the case of LPG fuelled cars, they normally hold additional resale value as purchasers know the additional hidden value of the vehicle and system. For example, if the additional resale value is £500 after 18mths usage a purchaser knows that it will take but a very short period to recover the £500; this resulting in very good performance savings thereafter. The above figues do not include a resale value uplift.
Edited by v8250 on Sunday 9th December 12:30
Jan 06 LPG used to be about 39ppl. Jan 12 LPG was 79ppl. That's very almost doubled in price and is currently more than half the price of Petrol/Diesel. 6yrs ago it was a quarter the price of petrol/diesel.
Following that trend 12yrs from now it may well have almost caught up with with petrol/diesel prices.
Equally, you get about 2/3 the mpg from LPG than you do from petrol/diesel. The more i think about it the less attractive LPG is sounding for petrol cars, but i still think it might be a good idea for Diesels.
Alternatively, you can pick up Methanol for 40ppl-50ppl in 1000ltr IBC's. It doesn't have to be pressurised, can be stored and used from a normal petrol tank or from an extended (internally divided) fuel tank replacing the factory fuel tank below, and will cost very little to convert up top to flex fuel use (considerably cheaper and then some than LPG). Equally, like LPG you only get 2/3 the mileage, but you gain a s
tload of extra power when mapped. Because 16-bit Denso factory ECU's can now be dual mapped you can switch over fuels at will.
Sod LPG...Let's go Methanol instead!!
Edited to add: If anyone has a 2001/2002 2Ltr Forester XT I would like to see if the dual mapping extends to the Forester as well. Would you like dual maps on your Forester, perhaps an economy map and a give it some map. You might like Launch Control and Anti-Lag as well..lol... Fire breathing Forester anyone
The ROM is almost identical in structure to a 2.0Ltr WRX ROM and uses the same flashing method so i think it will work just fine. The worst that can happen is you come away with your own factory ROM tweaked for more efficiency and some extra go for zero cost just as a thank you for letting me take a look.
Following that trend 12yrs from now it may well have almost caught up with with petrol/diesel prices.
Equally, you get about 2/3 the mpg from LPG than you do from petrol/diesel. The more i think about it the less attractive LPG is sounding for petrol cars, but i still think it might be a good idea for Diesels.
Alternatively, you can pick up Methanol for 40ppl-50ppl in 1000ltr IBC's. It doesn't have to be pressurised, can be stored and used from a normal petrol tank or from an extended (internally divided) fuel tank replacing the factory fuel tank below, and will cost very little to convert up top to flex fuel use (considerably cheaper and then some than LPG). Equally, like LPG you only get 2/3 the mileage, but you gain a s
tload of extra power when mapped. Because 16-bit Denso factory ECU's can now be dual mapped you can switch over fuels at will.Sod LPG...Let's go Methanol instead!!
Edited to add: If anyone has a 2001/2002 2Ltr Forester XT I would like to see if the dual mapping extends to the Forester as well. Would you like dual maps on your Forester, perhaps an economy map and a give it some map. You might like Launch Control and Anti-Lag as well..lol... Fire breathing Forester anyone
The ROM is almost identical in structure to a 2.0Ltr WRX ROM and uses the same flashing method so i think it will work just fine. The worst that can happen is you come away with your own factory ROM tweaked for more efficiency and some extra go for zero cost just as a thank you for letting me take a look.
Edited by ScoobieWRX on Sunday 9th December 11:19
ScoobieWRX said:
Following that trend 12yrs from now it may well have almost caught up with with petrol/diesel prices.
Let's go Methanol instead!!
I'm not so sure this trend will happen. My thoughts for this are that LPG is also a home heating fuel that has to remain market competitive with both NatGas and domestic heating oil. This of course could be blown straight out the window should any UK Govt decide to increase tax on LPG when used for transportation which, frankly, I wouldn't put past any of our political party's who are always so desparate to benefit from stealth taxes.Let's go Methanol instead!!
That's a big thumbs up on Methanol...we could have Scoobies blatting around ala Eric Carlsson and his two-stroke Saabs
A Q? for you Francis...methanol gives a very distinct odour from the tail pipe. Is there not some issue with this polution-wise? And wondering about MOT hydrocarbon testing figures...would these fail the current MOT? I haven't researched methanol figures but I'm sure they're out there...
Using 100% Methanol for internal combustion engines can reduce Hydrocarbons by 30%-80% depending in how it's used and is virtually oderless when combusted. It's less flammable than Petrol and Methanol fires can be quickly extinguished using just water. The only cons are that you will use around 33%-35% more fuel than a petrol car but then but then it's ability to resist knock/det means you can use higher engine compression, a lot more boost, and ignition timing to create considerably more horsepower and efficiency than a petrol only car.
It is corrosive though which means you may have to upgrade your fuel lines, rubber pipes, injectors etc... However, modern vehicles since 2001 have been using materials that are more resistant to corrosion therefore with a lot of modern cars there may well be just minor or no changes at all. Methanol also absorbs moisture so you really do have to make sure it's stored in a dry as possible airtight container, which means it needs using regularly while it's in your vehicles fuel tank because it can go stale if left for too long.
It has to be said that come emissions testing for the MOT i am more than confident that vehicles without cats but run exclusively on Methanol would pass the test with flying colours. Particulate numbers are extremely low too.
That's it really, what's not to like
It is corrosive though which means you may have to upgrade your fuel lines, rubber pipes, injectors etc... However, modern vehicles since 2001 have been using materials that are more resistant to corrosion therefore with a lot of modern cars there may well be just minor or no changes at all. Methanol also absorbs moisture so you really do have to make sure it's stored in a dry as possible airtight container, which means it needs using regularly while it's in your vehicles fuel tank because it can go stale if left for too long.
It has to be said that come emissions testing for the MOT i am more than confident that vehicles without cats but run exclusively on Methanol would pass the test with flying colours. Particulate numbers are extremely low too.
That's it really, what's not to like
Edited by ScoobieWRX on Sunday 9th December 13:32
Pure meth has issues - cold starting a nightmare, it runs so cold you get mayonace in the oil, it burns with a clear flame so not easy to know its alight. It is more hazardous than petrol to human skin/fumes and although it would need to be massively high volumes to do anything there is scaremonger matterial in that the organse of the body absorb it.
Storage can be an issue as it absorbs moisture from the air.
It also corrodes some rubbers and metals. Using it as a mix with petrol works much better. Use it lots mixed.
Storage can be an issue as it absorbs moisture from the air.
It also corrodes some rubbers and metals. Using it as a mix with petrol works much better. Use it lots mixed.
Absorbed and assimilated by the body it turns into formaldehyde which is a carcinogen. In small quantities it can cause blindness and kidney failure. Examples of this in the news recently of Vodka imported into slovakia which was manufactured/laced with Methanol which caused death, blindness or kidney failure and all three in some of the poor sods that purchased the stuff as genuine vodka.
Citrus fruits, some vegetation and grown crops contian Methanol naturally, and so do we in tiny amounts.
Cold starting issues can be resolved mixing in Glycol, or using in 85% Meth/15% petrol mix.
Used in 20%Meth/80%Petrol mix gives decent bang per buck when remapped for properly. Very common in modding circles.
Use gloves when messing with Methanol, it dries the crap out of your skin. So long as you are in a well ventilated space you shouldn't need to use a mask. Try not to get your nose in the container for a good sniff, even though it smells nice. Well..... it's much better than glue
Citrus fruits, some vegetation and grown crops contian Methanol naturally, and so do we in tiny amounts.
Cold starting issues can be resolved mixing in Glycol, or using in 85% Meth/15% petrol mix.
Used in 20%Meth/80%Petrol mix gives decent bang per buck when remapped for properly. Very common in modding circles.
Use gloves when messing with Methanol, it dries the crap out of your skin. So long as you are in a well ventilated space you shouldn't need to use a mask. Try not to get your nose in the container for a good sniff, even though it smells nice. Well..... it's much better than glue
v8250 said:
The current uptake of electic/hybrids is down to the very effective marketing from the manufacturers. It's certainly not down to financial supprt from UK Government.
Are you joking?The SOLE reason electrics and hybrids are viable is because of their financial incentivisation. Look at Prius ownership in London: They avoid congestion charge, road tax, and there were grants available for purchase. All the while they get no better mpg than a diesel golf. They have been taken up by wealthy types well versed in tax avoidance. There's still an aston or a 911 in the garage, but the prius pops onto kings road to meet Amelia for elevenses.
The same way that LPG is only cheap because it's taxed less. If there was widespread uptake it'd be £1.40/l to captalise on tax revenue.
Personally I'd never consider buying an LPG'd Impreza, and with the market awash with them the OP should consider resale as well as running costs unless he plans to keep the car forever.
[quote=WeirdNeville]
Are you joking?
The SOLE reason electrics and hybrids are viable is because of their financial incentivisation. Look at Prius ownership in London: They avoid congestion charge, road tax, and there were grants available for purchase. All the while they get no better mpg than a diesel golf. They have been taken up by wealthy types well versed in tax avoidance. There's still an aston or a 911 in the garage, but the prius pops onto kings road to meet Amelia for elevenses.[quote]
Not joking at all. The UK Govt as done bugger all to actively promote "greener" transportation. To date, the promotion has been predominantly industry centric and politco waffle; not consumer orientated. They do not make it easy for prospective purchasers to find out what is and what is not available funding-wise. Their reasoning is to be seen as car technology/car manufacturer independent...which in theory all Govts are, but in reality rarely are.
Currently, UK Govt policy operates within the "Plug-in Car and Van Grant Scheme" theoretically providing 25% funding upto £5000 for a car, and 20% funding upto £8000 for a van. However, the vehicle criteria is tight and the available vehicle listing restrictive; hence the reason for car manufacturers having to add their own additional funding incentives.
As of 30 September 2012, ONLY 2,311 claims have been made through the Plug-in Car Grant scheme...proving my case in point compared to 2,000,000 annual UK car sales; UK Govt needs to do considerably more to support environmental transport for the car user.
For more info see:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/plug-in...
https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/overview
The above is consistant with the approach taken to other 'green' technologies i.e. the pathetic debacle supporting, or lack of, consistant funding within the renewable energy sectors.
I agree with you that it's the King Road set who buy for image, not environmental integrity, and shoot-off in V12 AM's and GT3's for a weekend in the 'country'. Of course, the Belgravia set don't give a damn as they own the bloody oil fields
Are you joking?
The SOLE reason electrics and hybrids are viable is because of their financial incentivisation. Look at Prius ownership in London: They avoid congestion charge, road tax, and there were grants available for purchase. All the while they get no better mpg than a diesel golf. They have been taken up by wealthy types well versed in tax avoidance. There's still an aston or a 911 in the garage, but the prius pops onto kings road to meet Amelia for elevenses.[quote]
Not joking at all. The UK Govt as done bugger all to actively promote "greener" transportation. To date, the promotion has been predominantly industry centric and politco waffle; not consumer orientated. They do not make it easy for prospective purchasers to find out what is and what is not available funding-wise. Their reasoning is to be seen as car technology/car manufacturer independent...which in theory all Govts are, but in reality rarely are.
Currently, UK Govt policy operates within the "Plug-in Car and Van Grant Scheme" theoretically providing 25% funding upto £5000 for a car, and 20% funding upto £8000 for a van. However, the vehicle criteria is tight and the available vehicle listing restrictive; hence the reason for car manufacturers having to add their own additional funding incentives.
As of 30 September 2012, ONLY 2,311 claims have been made through the Plug-in Car Grant scheme...proving my case in point compared to 2,000,000 annual UK car sales; UK Govt needs to do considerably more to support environmental transport for the car user.
For more info see:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/plug-in...
https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/overview
The above is consistant with the approach taken to other 'green' technologies i.e. the pathetic debacle supporting, or lack of, consistant funding within the renewable energy sectors.
I agree with you that it's the King Road set who buy for image, not environmental integrity, and shoot-off in V12 AM's and GT3's for a weekend in the 'country'. Of course, the Belgravia set don't give a damn as they own the bloody oil fields
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