Army Helicopter's UFO Scare Still A Mystery, 40 Years Later

[Eric Mc]

UFO interest panders to two "extreme" view points - one being that "the aliens are everywhere and are visiting us on a regular basis" camp.

The other is the camp that believes that UFOs are man made and indicative that we have already developed fantastic technologies which "they" are hiding from us.

[Hilts]

tuscaneer said:

The implication as always that these fantastic crafts perform inhuman feats of such awesome proportions that they can't be of this earth. I appreciate that this thread has steered off in a rather more military/ sensible direction but regmolehusband is definitely cut a bit more from the woo woo cloth as per his other threads on the same subject in the past

I've been interested in this subject for a long while although I seem to go through phases of interest. I've read a fair amount and watched most of the programmes. I even went to a few conferences back in the day when Graham Birdsall was still alive.

Here's my take, UFOs are a very real phenomenon. By that I mean some UFOs appear to be intelligently controlled craft of unearthly origin.

There are just too many reports from highly credible sources to just write the subject off as conspiracy nut rubbish.

I lived just north of Edwards AFB for 3 years and saw the B2 many times, it does look very strange but always flies conventionally.

A lot of the triangle UFO sightings involve gigantic craft flying at very slow speeds and accelerating at very high speed. The Belgian UFO incident involved F16s trying to close on radar verified target that was also in their HUD but couldn't do it as the object manoeuvred at too high speeds for them. It also dropped from about 7000 feet to under 100 feet in less than a second. That would kill a human pilot.

These triangle sightings have been going on since before the Wright brothers.

What these particular UFOs are exactly I'm not really sure, there are some options though:

1. Craft from another planet
2. From another dimension
3. From this planet but from a different place in time or reality.

Of these 3 I agree all have their problems in terms of hard evidence but number 1 is probably the easiest to get my head around.

YMMV.

[RegMolehusband]

Well done Hilts, you'll get a pasting but I'd go along with all of that. They should really read this and then they'd come back a great deal better informed.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/UFOs-Government-A-Historic...

[Hilts]

RegMolehusband said:

Well done Hilts, you'll get a pasting but I'd go along with all of that.

Yes I know, it's a tough crowd here.

[Eric Mc]

That's why I like it here. Not much "woo woo".

[RegMolehusband]

Hilts said:

Yes I know, it's a tough crowd here.

Yes people with an immovable belief system can be pretty tough as we know. Anthropocentric Tuscaneer up above believes that out of the billions of exoplanets in our galaxy there is no life more advanced than us in existence at the present time (whatever "the present" means), he believes that no technology exists to get them or their probes here and he believes that they wouldn't be able to find us anyway - despite our own recent embryonic developments in identifying the existence of exoplanets.

It's very difficult to have a discussion with people having such extreme beliefs

[jmorgan]

Hilts said:

What these particular UFOs are exactly I'm not really sure, there are some options though:

1. Craft from another planet
2. From another dimension
3. From this planet but from a different place in time or reality.

Of these 3 I agree all have their problems in terms of hard evidence but number 1 is probably the easiest to get my head around.

YMMV.

Why present a set number you want? There is also the human element and all that involves. Including the technology they make.

4. Mistaken identity (many facets to this, there really is).

[jmorgan]

RegMolehusband said:

Yes people with an immovable belief system can be pretty tough as we know.

It is not I being immovable (I know your retort was for another). What you have presented here has alternative explanations and with more credible evidence but you refuse it. Present the evidence that can be proven and I wil accept it if proven. That is the problem, no one presents the evidence and so far the existing bunkum, they never will.

[Hilts]

jmorgan said:

Why present a set number you want? There is also the human element and all that involves. Including the technology they make.

4. Mistaken identity (many facets to this, there really is).

OK Mr 400SE , of course I've considered that and I'm sure that could account for some reports.

However given the size of the craft reported(sometimes a football field size up to a mile wide) and the performance I would say it's extremely imbrobable that's it's our technology. Also how do you account for the many triangle sightings over the last 100 years, are they all mistaken?

As for mistaken identity well the Belgium triangle was winessed by over 10 000 people, several thousand of whom filed reports. It was tracked both on ground radar and by the F16s. The performance would not have survivable by a human pilot.

What do you think it was and who did it belong to?

[Halb]

Hilts said:

Almost a week and no-one's posted the ubiquitous Giorgio Tsoukalos meme or bleated about Occam's Razor.

I had no idea what that guy's name was, but I do now.
Ace meme.

[Terminator X]

RegMolehusband said:

harsh words re Tuscaneer

What he said made sense though I'd go further and say intelligent life simply doesn't exist elsewhere given how long its taken for us to evolve + the huge random events along the way. Where are all these Martians and why haven't they been uploaded to Youtube yet?

TX.

[Einion Yrth]

Terminator X said:

I'd go further and say intelligent life simply doesn't exist elsewhere given how long its taken for us to evolve + the huge random events along the way

Given the immense extent of even the visible universe that would be an immensely short-sighted statement. Are they coming here though? Very, very doubtful.

[tuscaneer]

RegMolehusband said:

Yes people with an immovable belief system can be pretty tough as we know. Anthropocentric Tuscaneer up above believes that out of the billions of exoplanets in our galaxy there is no life more advanced than us in existence at the present time (whatever "the present" means), he believes that no technology exists to get them or their probes here and he believes that they wouldn't be able to find us anyway - despite our own recent embryonic developments in identifying the existence of exoplanets.

It's very difficult to have a discussion with people having such extreme beliefs

not anthropocentric at all darling.i just tend to deal in no nonsense facts. we are here, now. by "present time" what I mean is that it is almost certain that given the number of stars that have been born and died aeons before our own sun burst into life it is quite probable intelligent life could have developed and been wiped out before we ever existed.the same will likely happen after our sun dies. the absolute blink of an eye that we are actually here is a tiny fraction of time itself.
billions of planets orbiting billions of stars in the milky way.......I agree with you.but think for just a minute about the likelihood of equal or greater(in terms of intelligence) beings than ourselves. even if there are dozens/hundreds of civilizations more advanced than us they still have to find us/ get to us. if you are a little green man and you somehow catch site of us and decide to come and visit just think about the logistics for a second.

hypothetical scenario. intelligent life happens to be...ooohh......1000 light years away????.that's pretty close.it's within a 1% catchment area of our corner of the milky way in terms of distance from us compared to the size of the milky way.how long have we walked the earth?? couple of hundred thousand years.we have been capable of getting a probe to the edge of our own solar system in that time.by the time voyager gets to another star it will have travelled for about 30,000 years.if we (hypothetically )could turn it around and somehow bring it back that would mean a return trip in the region of 60,000 years.and that is to have covered about 8-10 light years.to come from 100,000 light years away the return trip(with similar speeds achieved) would take 1.2 million years.

i'm quite sure that technologies greater than ours exist but even travelling at the speed of light(impossible) you are looking at journeys of thousands of years for these "super beings".now factor in how long intelligent life will be in existence on any particular planet relative to the lifespan of said planet and try and tell me that little green men regularly visit earth to lurk over desolate highways in the middle of nowhere without laughing.

the only reasonable explanation for life spreading through the galaxy as opposed to springing up due to a random sparking of chemical compounds(though life has to have sprung up somewhere for the first time right??) is panspermia.and deep down you know i'm right.the difference between you guys(aliens and conspiracy theorist types) and me is that i'm no fantasist.i'm a realist. and there are a lot more people that think like I do than you do!!

it's very difficult to have a discussion with people with such extreme beliefs.

Edited by tuscaneer on Thursday 31st October 08:23

[tuscaneer]

Hilts said:

I've been interested in this subject for a long while although I seem to go through phases of interest. I've read a fair amount and watched most of the programmes. I even went to a few conferences back in the day when Graham Birdsall was still alive.

Here's my take, UFOs are a very real phenomenon. By that I mean some UFOs appear to be intelligently controlled craft of unearthly origin.

There are just too many reports from highly credible sources to just write the subject off as conspiracy nut rubbish.

I lived just north of Edwards AFB for 3 years and saw the B2 many times, it does look very strange but always flies conventionally.

A lot of the triangle UFO sightings involve gigantic craft flying at very slow speeds and accelerating at very high speed. The Belgian UFO incident involved F16s trying to close on radar verified target that was also in their HUD but couldn't do it as the object manoeuvred at too high speeds for them. It also dropped from about 7000 feet to under 100 feet in less than a second. That would kill a human pilot.

These triangle sightings have been going on since before the Wright brothers.

What these particular UFOs are exactly I'm not really sure, there are some options though:

1. Craft from another planet
2. From another dimension
3. From this planet but from a different place in time or reality.

Of these 3 I agree all have their problems in terms of hard evidence but number 1 is probably the easiest to get my head around.

YMMV.

you see, points 1-3 seem very far fetched. mistaken identity of something more mundane seems much more reasonable to me.

[Eric Mc]

Although I have helped prolong this thread, I do find it extremely sad that discussion of such nonsense always seems to get more responses in the "Science" forum that discussion on "real" aspects of science and technology.

[tuscaneer]

Eric Mc said:

Although I have helped prolong this thread, I do find it extremely sad that discussion of such nonsense always seems to get more responses in the "Science" forum that discussion on "real" aspects of science and technology.

I must be honest mate, it is a subject that probably belongs in the lounge......how about a new section to pistonheads...."fantasy and conspiracy"???

[RegMolehusband]

jmorgan said:

It is not I being immovable (I know your retort was for another). What you have presented here has alternative explanations and with more credible evidence but you refuse it. Present the evidence that can be proven and I wil accept it if proven. That is the problem, no one presents the evidence and so far the existing bunkum, they never will.

Evidence of what though? My main argument on here is about the existence of craft flying around our skies with performance and stealth characteristics outside of the understanding of the general public. There is mountains of evidence showing this to be the case though I know of old that you will never accept the testimony of the thousands of military personnel in particular who have put their careers and reputation on the line by talking about their experience.

How much evidence amounts to proof in your mind that a real advanced craft of some sort was in fact present in a minority of cases?

What these craft are should really be a separate discussion but unfortunately whenever the term UFO is used, rather than the more recent UAP, then we immediately all think we're talking about aliens.

And given that I am of the opinion that very advanced craft are flying around using technology that "Joe Public" is unfamiliar with then this topic belongs firmly in the Science! section.

[RegMolehusband]

tuscaneer said:

not anthropocentric at all darling.i just tend to deal in no nonsense facts. we are here, now. by "present time" what I mean is that it is almost certain that given the number of stars that have been born and died aeons before our own sun burst into life it is quite probable intelligent life could have developed and been wiped out before we ever existed.the same will likely happen after our sun dies. the absolute blink of an eye that we are actually here is a tiny fraction of time itself.
billions of planets orbiting billions of stars in the milky way.......I agree with you.but think for just a minute about the likelihood of equal or greater(in terms of intelligence) beings than ourselves. even if there are dozens/hundreds of civilizations more advanced than us they still have to find us/ get to us. if you are a little green man and you somehow catch site of us and decide to come and visit just think about the logistics for a second.

hypothetical scenario. intelligent life happens to be...ooohh......1000 light years away????.that's pretty close.it's within a 1% catchment area of our corner of the milky way in terms of distance from us compared to the size of the milky way.how long have we walked the earth?? couple of hundred thousand years.we have been capable of getting a probe to the edge of our own solar system in that time.by the time voyager gets to another star it will have travelled for about 30,000 years.if we (hypothetically )could turn it around and somehow bring it back that would mean a return trip in the region of 60,000 years.and that is to have covered about 8-10 light years.to come from 100,000 light years away the return trip(with similar speeds achieved) would take 1.2 million years.

i'm quite sure that technologies greater than ours exist but even travelling at the speed of light(impossible) you are looking at journeys of thousands of years for these "super beings".now factor in how long intelligent life will be in existence on any particular planet relative to the lifespan of said planet and try and tell me that little green men regularly visit earth to lurk over desolate highways in the middle of nowhere without laughing.

the only reasonable explanation for life spreading through the galaxy as opposed to springing up due to a random sparking of chemical compounds(though life has to have sprung up somewhere for the first time right??) is panspermia.and deep down you know i'm right.the difference between you guys(aliens and conspiracy theorist types) and me is that i'm no fantasist.i'm a realist. and there are a lot more people that think like I do than you do!!

it's very difficult to have a discussion with people with such extreme beliefs.

Edited by tuscaneer on Thursday 31st October 08:23

Sorry matey, when you use condescending words like darling and sweetheart I don't even bother to read the rest.

[Eric Mc]

RegMolehusband said:

Evidence of what though? My main argument on here is about the existence of craft flying around our skies with performance and stealth characteristics outside of the understanding of the general public. There is mountains of evidence showing this to be the case though I know of old that you will never accept the testimony of the thousands of military personnel in particular who have put their careers and reputation on the line by talking about their experience.

How much evidence amounts to proof in your mind that a real advanced craft of some sort was in fact present in a minority of cases?

What these craft are should really be a separate discussion but unfortunately whenever the term UFO is used, rather than the more recent UAP, then we immediately all think we're talking about aliens.

And given that I am of the opinion that very advanced craft are flying around using technology that "Joe Public" is unfamiliar with then this topic belongs firmly in the Science! section.

No there aren't mouintains of evidence at all.

There are mountains of reports by people who, on the whole, haven't a clue what they saw. That is not evidence.

Evidence would be good quality, clear and accurate photographs and video/film footage. Despite 70 years of reports on this topic, we still have not got one single, indisputable clear photograph of any of these so called alien craft - not one.

And what about items of equipment left behind by the "aliens".

All I can say is that the aliens, whoever they are, must be extremely advanced and sophisticated as they are absolutely meticulous when it comes to picking up their litter - unlike crude, scruffy and primitive humans who always leave evidence of their presence wherever they go.

[tuscaneer]

RegMolehusband said:

Sorry matey, when you use condescending words like darling and sweetheart I don't even bother to read the rest.

in other words you have read it and haven't got a comeback.i'm right. you know it and I know it but if a little condescension nullifies my argument for you then knock yourself out pumpkin.