SpaceX Tuesday...
Discussion
RizzoTheRat said:
That list also includes an ISS "lifeboat" as part of the commercial crew programme. I'd have thought there'll always be a requirement for some kind of simple return vehicle rather than one as complex as Starship.
I wonder what a starship would look like with a dragon balanced on in? its nose.SpaceX's commercial customers are buying a ride to space. It's really down to SpaceX as to what vehicle they use for cargo launches. That said, I'm sure that special customers like the US Air Force & NRO will get whatever they want.
If they can get Starship operational, and a track record of reliability with Starlink launches, then I'm sure they'll try to move all their customers over to it.
They've done this before. They had a Falcon 1 customer (Orbcom) who had their satellites lifted by Falcon 9s later on.
If they can get Starship operational, and a track record of reliability with Starlink launches, then I'm sure they'll try to move all their customers over to it.
They've done this before. They had a Falcon 1 customer (Orbcom) who had their satellites lifted by Falcon 9s later on.
Beati Dogu said:
SpaceX's commercial customers are buying a ride to space. It's really down to SpaceX as to what vehicle they use for cargo launches.
AIUI there are constraints and specification for levels of vibration during a launch that are sometimes contractually specified. If of course the Starship environment is more benign than Falcon, then this isn't an issue, but if it is harsher, it may be a problem.xeny said:
Beati Dogu said:
SpaceX's commercial customers are buying a ride to space. It's really down to SpaceX as to what vehicle they use for cargo launches.
AIUI there are constraints and specification for levels of vibration during a launch that are sometimes contractually specified. If of course the Starship environment is more benign than Falcon, then this isn't an issue, but if it is harsher, it may be a problem.Smiljan said:
annodomini2 said:
They replaced it with Starship
Which will be fully reusable when ready
Will they stop using Falcon 9 when Starship is ready?Which will be fully reusable when ready
F9 will continue with manned launches and the lower risk customers.
Over time it will replace F9.
The full reusability will make it cheaper to operate than F9.
CraigyMc said:
Should. Should make it cheaper.
Starship will have tiles.
You are anticipating Shuttle-style maintenance requirements? At least Starships tiles appear to be bolted on, not just glued. Feels a bit like the difference between a DIYer bodging on the mantelpiece and a professional routing out the wall for it.Starship will have tiles.
Flooble said:
CraigyMc said:
Should. Should make it cheaper.
Starship will have tiles.
You are anticipating Shuttle-style maintenance requirements? At least Starships tiles appear to be bolted on, not just glued. Feels a bit like the difference between a DIYer bodging on the mantelpiece and a professional routing out the wall for it.Starship will have tiles.
The tiles on the Shuttle "should" not have been a problem either. Reusability and heatshields aren't great bedfellows.
CraigyMc said:
Flooble said:
CraigyMc said:
Should. Should make it cheaper.
Starship will have tiles.
You are anticipating Shuttle-style maintenance requirements? At least Starships tiles appear to be bolted on, not just glued. Feels a bit like the difference between a DIYer bodging on the mantelpiece and a professional routing out the wall for it.Starship will have tiles.
The tiles on the Shuttle "should" not have been a problem either. Reusability and heatshields aren't great bedfellows.
(*) Well, when not being hit by lumps of ice and foam that is
They already know it'll be a problem. There is no magic fix for the tiles unfortunately, Musk himself has said it's going to be very challenging.
Main issue is the expansion of materials with heat. Leave too small a gap in the tiles and they squeeze against each other and get damaged / detach. Leave too large a gap and you have plasma getting in during re-entry and destroying the vehicle.
They will lose tiles, they have already said they'll have supplemental protection in vulnerable areas, it's just a case of how difficult / time consuming repairs and replacements end up being, the long term goal is to have quick turn around launches with minimal maintenance between.
It's a subject so complex, it'd need a forum of it's own to fully discuss.
Main issue is the expansion of materials with heat. Leave too small a gap in the tiles and they squeeze against each other and get damaged / detach. Leave too large a gap and you have plasma getting in during re-entry and destroying the vehicle.
They will lose tiles, they have already said they'll have supplemental protection in vulnerable areas, it's just a case of how difficult / time consuming repairs and replacements end up being, the long term goal is to have quick turn around launches with minimal maintenance between.
It's a subject so complex, it'd need a forum of it's own to fully discuss.
I believe the X-20 Dyan Soar was intended to use heat shield tiles ( in its case, metal ones ) which overlapped so they could expand by sliding over each other - I wonder if it would be possible to design tiles of whatever material SpaceX are using which interlock like tongue & groove to allow for expansion while also preventing the ingress of plasma
MartG said:
I believe the X-20 Dyan Soar was intended to use heat shield tiles ( in its case, metal ones ) which overlapped so they could expand by sliding over each other - I wonder if it would be possible to design tiles of whatever material SpaceX are using which interlock like tongue & groove to allow for expansion while also preventing the ingress of plasma
Overlapping shingles, with a design that allows some to chip, all to expand, and easy replacement on the ground when the break.Starship being a mostly regular, cylindrical shape will make it easier to use a common tile design for much of it. The tiles are hexagonal to stop plasma running along the seams very far. They're making them at Cape Canaveral and nearby Cocoa Beach apparently.
With an eye on hypersonic weapons research, the US Air Force have just this week given SpaceX an $8.5 million contract to help produce next gen tiles.
At least the Superheavy booster won't need tiles. They're stacking the first test article at the moment. That'll be fun.
With an eye on hypersonic weapons research, the US Air Force have just this week given SpaceX an $8.5 million contract to help produce next gen tiles.
At least the Superheavy booster won't need tiles. They're stacking the first test article at the moment. That'll be fun.
Beati Dogu said:
At least the Superheavy booster won't need tiles. They're stacking the first test article at the moment. That'll be fun.
I have wanted to see a frigate fly into space for a while. I won't be in TX for the launch, but from the UK I'll probably hear it.Starship is 3680t. Also 3680t, and also a ship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_frigate_Karls...
CraigyMc said:
Beati Dogu said:
At least the Superheavy booster won't need tiles. They're stacking the first test article at the moment. That'll be fun.
I have wanted to see a frigate fly into space for a while. I won't be in TX for the launch, but from the UK I'll probably hear it.Starship is 3680t. Also 3680t, and also a ship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_frigate_Karls...
CraigyMc said:
annodomini2 said:
The full reusability will make it cheaper to operate than F9.
Should. Should make it cheaper.Starship will have tiles.
It's heatshield was constrained by other criteria.
Now I agree there are engineering issues to be understood and resolved.
But 1 reference point from 40+ years ago is hardly a conclusive analysis.
annodomini2 said:
CraigyMc said:
annodomini2 said:
The full reusability will make it cheaper to operate than F9.
Should. Should make it cheaper.Starship will have tiles.
It's heatshield was constrained by other criteria.
Now I agree there are engineering issues to be understood and resolved.
But 1 reference point from 40+ years ago is hardly a conclusive analysis.
Flooble said:
X-37? That launches in a fairing which probably makes the design challenge easier, but it also spends a year or more cold/heat soaking in orbit, being exposed to atomic oxygen and all the other things that make space a nasty environment. Naturally we lack information on the X37 compared with the Shuttle, but the photos we have seen don't seem to show it having gaps in the tiles after landing. Whether they replace the entire structure or not I can't find out, but it is touted as "reusable".
It looks to have tight fitting tiles like the shuttle. According to Boeing, the X-37 uses:New generation of high-temperature wing leading-edge tiles and toughened uni-piece fibrous refractory oxidation-resistant ceramic (TUFROC) tiles.
Advanced conformal reusable insulation (CRI) blankets.
Toughened uni-piece fibrous insulation (TUFI) impregnated silica tiles
The Shuttles’ Achilles heal was the relative softness of the tiles, combined with the solid rockets and the fuel tank being along side it. Not something that the X-37 or the Starship have to worry about. (The Atlas V rocket doesn’t need an SRB to launch the X-37).
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