Space Launch System - Orion

Space Launch System - Orion

Author
Discussion

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,053 posts

266 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
RobDickinson said:
Nasa are looking at sending Orion on a commercials rocket for the 2020 moon mission.

SLS is officially dead.
Source?

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

255 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/11058651632...

Lots of info from congress not made it to the press yet.

SLS might have a job in heavy lift. Might...

Beati Dogu

8,896 posts

140 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
Earlier today, Jim Bridenstine was in front the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation. Its Chairman, Roger Wicker, just happens to be a Senator for Mississippi, where the NASA's Stennis Space Center is located.

Bridenstine is going with the angle that SLS was supposed to launch for the first time in June 2020, but as of last week they know it's going to be delayed again.

Ah, but NASA still want to hit that deadline though; So the're looking at using commercial rockets to launch Orion with its European Service Module instead (The ESM acts like the service module on Apollo and provides power, life support and propulsion to the capsule).

The plan is that Orion & ESM would launch into low Earth orbit first. Then another rocket would lift a fully fuelled upper stage, which would meet up with Orion/ESM and they'd dock together, which it can't do yet. This upper stage would give them the power they need to launch towards the Moon.

Oh and there's no crew to help. But then the fireball that is Delta 4 and Falcon Heavy aren't man-rated anyway, so that's OK.

Other than that, it's all good.


https://twitter.com/JimBridenstine/status/11058595...




Talksteer

4,885 posts

234 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
Beati Dogu said:
Earlier today, Jim Bridenstine was in front the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation. Its Chairman, Roger Wicker, just happens to be a Senator for Mississippi, where the NASA's Stennis Space Center is located.

Bridenstine is going with the angle that SLS was supposed to launch for the first time in June 2020, but as of last week they know it's going to be delayed again.

Ah, but NASA still want to hit that deadline though; So the're looking at using commercial rockets to launch Orion with its European Service Module instead (The ESM acts like the service module on Apollo and provides power, life support and propulsion to the capsule).

The plan is that Orion & ESM would launch into low Earth orbit first. Then another rocket would lift a fully fuelled upper stage, which would meet up with Orion/ESM and they'd dock together, which it can't do yet. This upper stage would give them the power they need to launch towards the Moon.

Oh and there's no crew to help. But then the fireball that is Delta 4 and Falcon Heavy aren't man-rated anyway, so that's OK.

Other than that, it's all good.


https://twitter.com/JimBridenstine/status/11058595...
I would assume that Man Rating Falcon Heavy would be a paper exercise as it is based on a man rated rocket. They only element that is novel is the side booster staging.

Docking with an upper stage in orbit has been done with the Agena target vehicles in the mid 60's.

MartG

20,691 posts

205 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
From discussions elsewhere it seems to be accepted that Delta IV Heavy can't put a fully functional Orion & Service module into orbit - the previous test flight was a stripped down Orion and non-functional SM which were nowhere near the same mass as the fully functional vehicle.

Beati Dogu

8,896 posts

140 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
They'd also have to beg, borrow or steal a Delta 4 Heavy from the Air Force or NRO, because they're the best part of $400 million a pop and the lead time on a new one is at least 18 months.

Talksteer said:
I would assume that Man Rating Falcon Heavy would be a paper exercise as it is based on a man rated rocket. They only element that is novel is the side booster staging.

Docking with an upper stage in orbit has been done with the Agena target vehicles in the mid 60's.
Nothing is just a paper exercise with NASA. I'm pretty sure SpaceX abandoned certification for Falcon Heavy because their experience with F9 was like pulling teeth. That and they're moving on to Starship development now. I don't think Falcon 9 is man rated quite yet anyway. They've got to get past the in-flight abort test first and complete a review of last week's ISS trip.

While in-orbit docking was done in the 60s, they had the likes of Neil Armstrong & Michael Collins in control. This EM-1 mission would have no crew and would either have to be done remotely (tricky with relay delay) or some sort of automatic system (with a very short notice development period). It would require NASA, Boeing, Lockheed Martin and presumably SpaceX to collaborate closely as well. That's not going to be easy, or cheap.


To me the whole thing is clearly unworkable & frankly ridiculous . Designed to send a political message to SLS' cheerleaders in Congress that it's unnecessary.

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

255 months

Thursday 21st March 2019
quotequote all
So NASA are thinking of scrapping the green run test for the SLS, saves 6 months of development.

Effectively replaces an 8 minute firing with a 5 second test.

what could go wrong?

Beati Dogu

8,896 posts

140 months

Friday 22nd March 2019
quotequote all
Where have you seen that?

I had to look up what the green run test was: It's a full duration burn of all 4 engines on the SLS core stage. This would be on a test stand at the Stennis Space Center in Mississippi. The same stand they used to test the Saturn V first stage, Shuttle and Delta 4. They've spent the last 6 years refurbishing it for SLS apparently..

Here it is during Saturn V testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YTaG91KD5s


Reuters are reporting "industry sources" that ULA's CST-100 Starliner launch test to the ISS has been put back from April to August. So even if successful it'll be November at the earliest before we see a manned flight. Boeing & NASA are not commenting on this story yet.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-space-boeing/bo...

Boeing are really not having a great time at the moment.

MartG

20,691 posts

205 months

Tuesday 26th March 2019
quotequote all
Article on the state of SLS and NASA's attempts to get a launch next year...

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2019/03/boeing-sls...

...and an interesting render smile


Beati Dogu

8,896 posts

140 months

Tuesday 26th March 2019
quotequote all
VP Mike Pence has been speaking at the fifth meeting of the National Space Council at the Marshall Space Flight Center today.

Challenged them to get astronauts back to the Moon within the next 5 years.

"Let me be clear, the first woman and the next man on the Moon will both be American astronauts"


Another very salient quote:

"If the current contractors can't meet this objective, then we'll find ones who will".


The event was streamed live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21X5lGlDOfg



Edited by Beati Dogu on Tuesday 26th March 22:31

Flooble

5,565 posts

101 months

Tuesday 26th March 2019
quotequote all
It's quite sad to see modern day politicians attempting to emulate those of the past. It doesn't really have the same power to it that the whole "before this decade is out" speech had, does it?

Probably because we all know that they'll never manage it, and once the current "we could launch Orion on Falcon Heavy" threat has dissipated Boeing will go back to "ooopsy, sorry we'll be late".

MartG

20,691 posts

205 months

Tuesday 26th March 2019
quotequote all
No mention in his speech about providing the funding needed to achieve that goal frown

Even if they reduce the delays in the SLS programme, they still need to develop a lander...in 5 years, and on a fraction of the budget the Apollo LM had...just not going to happen frown

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,053 posts

266 months

Tuesday 26th March 2019
quotequote all
Yep - empty talk by an empty vessel.

hidetheelephants

24,463 posts

194 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
I'm sure the good ol' boys at Grumman could knock up some LMs, they did it before. hehe

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,053 posts

266 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
I'm sure they couldn't - especially since Grumman as a company no longer exists.

The new generation lander will be a very different animal to the minimalist Lunar Module built by Grumman. It's only a month or so since NASA issued their current lunar lander requirements to the US aerospace industry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hx20ca_poQ

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

255 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
Apparently theyll use the exploration upper stage for the moon mission.

You know, the one they shelved development of ages ago and that doesn't have a budget..

Sigh.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,053 posts

266 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
Talk about mixed messages. The expressions "arse" and "elbow" comes to mind.

Beati Dogu

8,896 posts

140 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
Perhaps they’re setting them up to fail. Then the SLS can finally be cancelled and the commercial outfits given the job.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,053 posts

266 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
I think that would be too subtle.

The commercial guys still have a long way to go before they will have a 100 tonnes to lunar orbit capable rocket - and definitely not within five years.

Beati Dogu

8,896 posts

140 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
I think those smart enough to matter at NASA and the usual suspects in Congress will get the message. (E.g Alabama Senator Richard Shelby, Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee)

SLS better shape up or ship out.