Boeing Starliner
Discussion
"More time is needed to assess incorrect valve indications, not all valves were in proper configuration for launch of Starliner on August 3 ahead of its next flight test to the International Space Station according to Boeing Space and NASA. A new launch date will be set once the issue has been resolved"
MartG said:
"More time is needed to assess incorrect valve indications, not all valves were in proper configuration for launch of Starliner on August 3 ahead of its next flight test to the International Space Station according to Boeing Space and NASA. A new launch date will be set once the issue has been resolved"
So if there hadn't been a scrub thanks to the Russians and a Thunderstorm, they'd have launched it and it would have again failed?Flooble said:
MartG said:
"More time is needed to assess incorrect valve indications, not all valves were in proper configuration for launch of Starliner on August 3 ahead of its next flight test to the International Space Station according to Boeing Space and NASA. A new launch date will be set once the issue has been resolved"
So if there hadn't been a scrub thanks to the Russians and a Thunderstorm, they'd have launched it and it would have again failed?Yes and we'll never know if the delay was a factor. It could just be a faulty sensor & may have worked flawlessly. The problem was reported as "unexpected valve position indications" in the capsule's propulsion system (RCS thrusters). They have backup systems to backup systems on all crew vehicles, so it might have been manageable anyway.
Wow, it seems that they had problems with not just one or two, but with thirteen propulsion system valves
Working on this thing in situ isn't exactly easy either:
Statement from Boeing:
"This weekend, Boeing restored functionality on more of the 13 CST-100 Starliner propulsion system valves that did not open as designed during prelaunch system checks last week.
Boeing has completed physical inspections and chemical sampling on the exterior of a number of the affected valves, which indicated no signs of damage or external corrosion. Test teams are now applying mechanical, electrical and thermal techniques to prompt the valves open. Seven of the 13 valves are now operating as designed, with inspection and remediation of the remaining affected valves to be performed in the days ahead.
Boeing is working a systematic plan to open the affected valves, demonstrate repeatable system performance, and verify the root cause of the issue before returning Starliner to the launch pad for its Orbital Flight Test-2 mission.
The company is assessing multiple launch opportunities for Starliner in August and will work with NASA and United Launch Alliance to confirm those dates when the spacecraft is ready."
https://starlinerupdates.com/boeing-advances-starl...
Working on this thing in situ isn't exactly easy either:
Statement from Boeing:
"This weekend, Boeing restored functionality on more of the 13 CST-100 Starliner propulsion system valves that did not open as designed during prelaunch system checks last week.
Boeing has completed physical inspections and chemical sampling on the exterior of a number of the affected valves, which indicated no signs of damage or external corrosion. Test teams are now applying mechanical, electrical and thermal techniques to prompt the valves open. Seven of the 13 valves are now operating as designed, with inspection and remediation of the remaining affected valves to be performed in the days ahead.
Boeing is working a systematic plan to open the affected valves, demonstrate repeatable system performance, and verify the root cause of the issue before returning Starliner to the launch pad for its Orbital Flight Test-2 mission.
The company is assessing multiple launch opportunities for Starliner in August and will work with NASA and United Launch Alliance to confirm those dates when the spacecraft is ready."
https://starlinerupdates.com/boeing-advances-starl...
Flooble said:
Seems like an aggressive schedule:
http://www.universetoday.com/128868/1st-boeing-sta...
“The Pad Abort test is October 2017 in New Mexico. Boeing will fly an uncrewed orbital flight test in December 2017 and a crewed orbital flight test in February 2018"
When I draw up project schedules I usually include some time after a test to do rework. Rather than assuming everything will go perfectly and no changes will be required.
They are just building the first hull now according to that article. So they are giving themselves over a year from starting assembly to the pad abort test but then only two months between each flight/test. I don't see how they are going to fit in any alterations arising from the tests. I also note that there is a straight line from Pad Abort to orbital flight to crewed flight. Skipping the in-flight abort test. So the chances are that the vehicle which takes humans up in February 2018 would be identical to the one used on the Pad Abort in October 2017.
Sorry to be a pessimist but looking at the SpaceX timelines (May 2015 Pad Abort Test; May 2017 planned for first orbital flight) it strikes me that Boeing, with its many years of aerospace management experience, even if it achieves the Pad Abort test on time is likely to see the first orbital flight in something like 2019 and the first crewed one by around 2020, maybe.
Let’s all enjoy this post one more time. http://www.universetoday.com/128868/1st-boeing-sta...
“The Pad Abort test is October 2017 in New Mexico. Boeing will fly an uncrewed orbital flight test in December 2017 and a crewed orbital flight test in February 2018"
When I draw up project schedules I usually include some time after a test to do rework. Rather than assuming everything will go perfectly and no changes will be required.
They are just building the first hull now according to that article. So they are giving themselves over a year from starting assembly to the pad abort test but then only two months between each flight/test. I don't see how they are going to fit in any alterations arising from the tests. I also note that there is a straight line from Pad Abort to orbital flight to crewed flight. Skipping the in-flight abort test. So the chances are that the vehicle which takes humans up in February 2018 would be identical to the one used on the Pad Abort in October 2017.
Sorry to be a pessimist but looking at the SpaceX timelines (May 2015 Pad Abort Test; May 2017 planned for first orbital flight) it strikes me that Boeing, with its many years of aerospace management experience, even if it achieves the Pad Abort test on time is likely to see the first orbital flight in something like 2019 and the first crewed one by around 2020, maybe.
Much as I think Boeing are a really ‘good’ company. They are also their own architects of poor performance.
It isn't great. When you think of some of the fantastic stuff they've built in the past, it's generally been a company where everyone would want to see them succeed.
However, between the issues with this and the 737 failures, they're really managing to show themselves in a bad light of late.
However, between the issues with this and the 737 failures, they're really managing to show themselves in a bad light of late.
"Nine of the previously affected 13 valves are now open and functioning normally after the application of electrical and thermal techniques to prompt and command them open. Similar techniques are now being applied to the four valves that remain closed."
Progress I suppose.
https://starlinerupdates.com/boeing-works-to-open-...
They had problems with valves being stuck open on a test version back in 2018. This was a static test fire of the capsule's launch abort engines. They ran ok, but when they were shutting down it sprung a leak and started dripping hydrazine fuel all over the place.
Progress I suppose.
https://starlinerupdates.com/boeing-works-to-open-...
They had problems with valves being stuck open on a test version back in 2018. This was a static test fire of the capsule's launch abort engines. They ran ok, but when they were shutting down it sprung a leak and started dripping hydrazine fuel all over the place.
I missed the leaky valves story in 2018. Same valves? Seems like they stick a lot and not consistently.
I'm a little surprised by these stories. I would have expected them to take it off the booster and back to the factory for a strip-down and root cause analysis. I suppose the rules are different when it's not a cost-plus contract and delays cost the manufacturer money not the taxpayer!
Even so, it sounds like they are planning to hammer the valves open (even if it takes more than a day per valve??) and then launch anyway. The fact they are focussed on opening the valves and not removing at least one of them for analysis before bashing it around suggests to me that they don't really care too much about why they wouldn't open - if they did surely they would want to preserve the evidence rather than potentially obliterating it with heating/hammering/etc.
I'm a little surprised by these stories. I would have expected them to take it off the booster and back to the factory for a strip-down and root cause analysis. I suppose the rules are different when it's not a cost-plus contract and delays cost the manufacturer money not the taxpayer!
Even so, it sounds like they are planning to hammer the valves open (even if it takes more than a day per valve??) and then launch anyway. The fact they are focussed on opening the valves and not removing at least one of them for analysis before bashing it around suggests to me that they don't really care too much about why they wouldn't open - if they did surely they would want to preserve the evidence rather than potentially obliterating it with heating/hammering/etc.
Well, not surprisingly, Boeing have given up trying to fix Starliner in situ and they're demounting it from the Atlas rocket now. It'll be taken back to their capsule processing facility next to the the big Vertical Assembly Building at the Cape.
ULA also need the pad soon for another Atlas V mission. This one is a Department of Defence satellite.
So that likely means they won't be able to fly Starliner until next year sometime.
https://starlinerupdates.com/starliner-returning-t...
ULA also need the pad soon for another Atlas V mission. This one is a Department of Defence satellite.
So that likely means they won't be able to fly Starliner until next year sometime.
https://starlinerupdates.com/starliner-returning-t...
Boeing said:
the application of electrical and thermal techniques
This sounds more like something you do to an old Land Rover steering box than a brand spanking new rocket from Boeing.i.e. t
tting it with a big hammer and getting the acetylene flame on it until it all goes orange, whilst at the same time putting a 24v battery on a 12v actuator.Any reasonable engineering department would immediately remove all the faulty units, and preferably all the ones of the same design, and investigate them. Elon's lot would have whipped em all out and got totally different ones in, with time left before the morning bacon sarnie and coffee break. Leaving enough time before lunch to find imaginative ways to make the old ones fail. In spaceflight, making stuff work shouldn't be the target, the aim should be to make it never go wrong.
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