Evolution - Reality and Misconceptions

[TwigtheWonderkid]

4x4Tyke said:

The mainstream churches do now respect science, including evolution

They don't really. They say that evolution exists, and is part of god's plan. But one of the cornerstones of biological evolution is that it's unplanned.

Of course you can have planned evolution. My house looks nothing like it looked when I bought it. I've made gradual changes over the years so it now looks completely different. So it's evolved, and I always had an idea of where I wanted to get to.

But when we talk about evolution of species, that has no plan or goal. To say you believe in evolution as part of god's plan isn't really believing in evolution at all.

[Alex]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

They don't really. They say that evolution exists, and is part of god's plan. But one of the cornerstones of biological evolution is that it's unplanned.

Of course you can have planned evolution. My house looks nothing like it looked when I bought it. I've made gradual changes over the years so it now looks completely different. So it's evolved, and I always had an idea of where I wanted to get to.

But when we talk about evolution of species, that has no plan or goal. To say you believe in evolution as part of god's plan isn't really believing in evolution at all.

And why no mention of evolution in the bible?

[4x4Tyke]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

4x4Tyke said:

The mainstream churches do now respect science, including evolution

They don't really. They say that evolution exists, and is part of god's plan. But one of the cornerstones of biological evolution is that it's unplanned.

Of course you can have planned evolution. My house looks nothing like it looked when I bought it. I've made gradual changes over the years so it now looks completely different. So it's evolved, and I always had an idea of where I wanted to get to.

But when we talk about evolution of species, that has no plan or goal. To say you believe in evolution as part of god's plan isn't really believing in evolution at all.

I don't really want to quibble over the one word 'respect'. I was trying to give as honest a representation of what they say as possible. I wasn't arguing that it was planned, I did say I don't agree with their view, and absolutely agree, no anthropomorphism is required and have made that same point several times in the thread already.

I'd even go further that it is a pretty clear example of systematic emergent characteristics. We see exactly the same emergent characteristics in cellular automaton. In any system If a state leads to a successful outcome, the new states get another chance. I'd say the laws of physics in the big bang are the same, at the risking going off topic in a completely new direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton

As an aside and again at some risk of going off-topic. I consider myself a humanist, for me that is how I construct my moral code and I accept that humanism is closer to a belief system than it is to science. I don't agree with theism largely because of science, but science alone doesn't provide a moral code. Evolution could suggest a predatorial moral code or a socially cooperative moral code. I try to follow the latter. I will respect others personal belief and I expect others to respect my viewpoint even when they don't agree, in return I will respect their viewpoint, even if I don't agree.

My rights end where they impede another's rights, another person's rights end where they impede mine.

Edited by 4x4Tyke on Monday 3rd September 10:56

[Prof Prolapse]

And who decides what your “rights” are?

[Eric Mc]

Alex said:

And why no mention of evolution in the bible?

The Bible doesn't mention an awful lot of things. It's pretty quiet on bicycles, for example.

[Toltec]

Eric Mc said:

Alex said:

And why no mention of evolution in the bible?

The Bible doesn't mention an awful lot of things. It's pretty quiet on bicycles, for example.

The title does contain many of the same letters though so perhaps some ruling could be interpreted from that, just so believers could know what to think about them.

Then they could have endless discussions and schisms on whether all human propelled wheeled vehicles were covered, if only two wheels were canon or indeed if ebikes were anathema.

Sorry, you may think this is off topic, but blame evolution for giving me a brain that works this way not me.

[Eric Mc]

Toltec said:

The title does contain many of the same letters though so perhaps some ruling could be interpreted from that, just so believers could know what to think about them.

Then they could have endless discussions and schisms on whether all human propelled wheeled vehicles were covered, if only two wheels were canon or indeed if ebikes were anathema.

Sorry, you may think this is off topic, but blame evolution for giving me a brain that works this way not me.

I could suggest that your brain could be an indicator of an evolutionary dead end.

[Toltec]

Eric Mc said:

I could suggest that your brain could be an indicator of an evolutionary dead end.

Given we haven't had children that is pretty fair, it does not bother me too much because we both have enough extended family that have bred to pass on genes and I get the last laugh on the selfish gits by not cooperating.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Eric Mc said:

Alex said:

And why no mention of evolution in the bible?

The Bible doesn't mention an awful lot of things. It's pretty quiet on bicycles, for example.

The bible mentions nothing that wasn't know to Middle Eastern man 2000 years ago. Even stuff that was around, like glaciers, polar bears, armadillos and the Northern Lights don't get a look in. You could almost begin to think it was written by Middle Eastern man.

[RTB]

Eric Mc said:

The Bible doesn't mention an awful lot of things. It's pretty quiet on bicycles, for example.

That argument only holds up if evolution by natural selection wasn't happening in the 6th century BC

[TwigtheWonderkid]

4x4Tyke said:

I will respect others personal belief and I expect others to respect my viewpoint even when they don't agree, in return I will respect their viewpoint, even if I don't agree.

Doesn't that depend on their personal beliefs? I can respect people with different personal beliefs on abortion, the death penalty, brexit. I can't respect people with different beliefs on racism, sex with children, evolution or the holocaust

I don't have respect for religious beliefs. I am tolerant. I wouldn't harm or abuse someone for believing in god. But I can't respect belief in something that to me, is so patently, utter nonsense.

[Eric Mc]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

The bible mentions nothing that wasn't know to Middle Eastern man 2000 years ago. Even stuff that was around, like glaciers, polar bears, armadillos and the Northern Lights don't get a look in. You could almost begin to think it was written by Middle Eastern man.

Amazing deduction.

[Eric Mc]

ash73 said:

Please no more God talk, science is more interesting.

Good point. The science on here is pretty good - so far.

[Nimby]

Eric Mc said:

Alex said:

And why no mention of evolution in the bible?

The Bible doesn't mention an awful lot of things. It's pretty quiet on bicycles, for example.

Never heard the phrase "Christ on a bike"?

[Toltec]

ash73 said:

Please no more God talk, science is more interesting.

It is science and linked to evolution, according to Dawkins at least-

http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2010/05/09/d...

a later discussion here-

https://evolutionnews.org/2014/08/evolutionary_st/

Is belief in a god or gods etc. and religion a coping mechanism for intelligence, well modest intelligence anyway, it provides explanations, rules and guidlines to stop existance from being overwhelming for a conscious being?

[RTB]

Eric Mc said:

Good point. The science on here is pretty good - so far.

Completely agree.

Going back to the idea of Misconceptions about Evolution, what are people's opinion on how it is taught both in school and in higher education?

I did the full 9 yards: A level biology, B.Sc. in Biology, M.Sc in molecular biology and a PhD in biochemistry and cell biology. All three degrees were from Russel Group Universities and yet I don't recall being taught a huge amount about natural selection, other than a few lectures in an elective unit during my 2nd year at undergraduate. Most of my knowledge of evolution comes about through my own interest, and also realising that nothing in biology makes the slightest bit of sense without a working understanding of natural selection.

What are other people's experience of evolutionary education?

Edited by RTB on Monday 3rd September 14:19

[Kawasicki]

My science teacher explained evolution in about 3 minutes, I didn’t think it was a complex theory then and a few decades later I still don’t.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Those crabs with one big claw and one little one spring to mind, but yes, it's unusual.

[Eric Mc]

Symmetry for swimming as in the first underwater vertebrates?

[4x4Tyke]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

4x4Tyke said:

I will respect others personal belief and I expect others to respect my viewpoint even when they don't agree, in return I will respect their viewpoint, even if I don't agree.

Doesn't that depend on their personal beliefs? I can respect people with different personal beliefs on abortion, the death penalty, brexit. I can't respect people with different beliefs on racism, sex with children, evolution or the holocaust

I don't have respect for religious beliefs. I am tolerant. I wouldn't harm or abuse someone for believing in god. But I can't respect belief in something that to me, is so patently, utter nonsense.

I think you're getting more hung up with the word respect, than I'm meaning. I not using it the sense of having high regard or admiration, but in the sense of due civility or common courtesy.

On your broader point, I think it is about separating belief from actions.

--- my drift off topic snipped ---

Edited by 4x4Tyke on Wednesday 5th September 12:56