From Wright brothers to Apollo
Discussion
Many people have remarked on how it only took 66 years to get from the Wright's first flight to landing on the moon. But if neither the Wright's nor anyone else had figured out how to build aeroplanes, would this have stopped an Apollo type project being developed? Could we theoretically have had space rockets but no aeroplanes?
Dr Jekyll said:
Many people have remarked on how it only took 66 years to get from the Wright's first flight to landing on the moon. But if neither the Wright's nor anyone else had figured out how to build aeroplanes, would this have stopped an Apollo type project being developed? Could we theoretically have had space rockets but no aeroplanes?
I'm going to say a qualified "no" but not because of the airplane itself, but due to the numerous high tech support services that sprang up to enable them!Things like Radar (critical for tracking spacecraft), high performance lightweight structures (metal and composite), availability of high performance fuels and the handling of those fuels, development of ultra high performance alloys all were driven primarily by the development of aircraft and simply borrowed by the Space programs!
For example Inconel developed for Whittle's Jet program in the early 1940's would almost certainly have no commercial use otherwise and therefore not been developed
There were quite a few people in Europe and North America working on the problems of sustained, controlled heavier than air flight at that time.
The Wrights managed to get a heavier than air machine to successfully fly in 1903. I am pretty sure that even if they had not been around to do this, some other pioneer aviator would have done the same within five years of 1903.
The Wrights managed to get a heavier than air machine to successfully fly in 1903. I am pretty sure that even if they had not been around to do this, some other pioneer aviator would have done the same within five years of 1903.
Very possibly. There were at least 20 pioneers working on the problem in the period 1900 to 1905. It just so happened that the Wrights were a bit further down the road than their rivals and got the job done first.
The Wrights themselves made use of much data given to them by both Octave Chanute and the widow of the German pioneer, Otto Lillienthal. In fact, if Lillienthal had not died in a crash, he might very well have managed a powered flight - even before 1900. The Brit, Percy Pilcher was another early pioneer who was working on an engine for his hang glider. Sadly, he too was killed in an accident.
The Wrights themselves made use of much data given to them by both Octave Chanute and the widow of the German pioneer, Otto Lillienthal. In fact, if Lillienthal had not died in a crash, he might very well have managed a powered flight - even before 1900. The Brit, Percy Pilcher was another early pioneer who was working on an engine for his hang glider. Sadly, he too was killed in an accident.
Dr Jekyll said:
Many people have remarked on how it only took 66 years to get from the Wright's first flight to landing on the moon. But if neither the Wrights nor anyone else had figured out how to build aeroplanes, would this have stopped an Apollo type project being developed? Could we theoretically have had space rockets but no aeroplanes?
Just a reminder of the original question.I thought we did have rockets first, in the form of Chinese fireworks.???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireworks
I'm almost certain someone built a massive one and strapped themselves in.
The question is perhaps, rockets without safe, sustained aeroplane flight
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireworks
I'm almost certain someone built a massive one and strapped themselves in.
The question is perhaps, rockets without safe, sustained aeroplane flight
Beati Dogu said:
The Wright brothers did a lot of calculation and practical testing to advance aircraft knowledge. From kites, to windflow tests using bicycles to the use of a rudimentary wind tunnel to test airfoil designs. They were pioneers in more ways than one.
Absolutely. They were far moor methodical in their approach than most of their contemporaries. They did a huge amount of experimentation with materials, home made wind tunnels and even designed their own aluminium block engine. They did however, also make use of information obtained by other pioneers before them. For example, Chanute's widow passed on to them all the research data obtained by her husband Octave.Whatsmyname said:
Surely rockets have come more from military advances? Didnt the US take a lot of German scientists after WW2 to help accelerate their programs?
To be specific, it was the US Army that made most use of the knowledge obtained by the German rocket research team - led by Von Braun. The Navy (and later the Air Force) had their own rocket research programmes which were far less reliant on the Germans.Von Braun's team was eventually transferred to NASA (in 1958).
The US had been running quite extensive rocket research programmes from the mid 1920s, starting with Robert Goddard and later with the US Navy and Army. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California, which is now most famous for its space probe programmes (Mariner, Voyager, Opportunity etc) started life as a propulsion laboratory run by Caltech (California Institute of Technology) on behalf of the US Army. It was their expertise in telemetry that led them into designing actual unmanned spacecraft in the late 1950s.
Dr Jekyll said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Many people have remarked on how it only took 66 years to get from the Wright's first flight to landing on the moon. But if neither the Wrights nor anyone else had figured out how to build aeroplanes, would this have stopped an Apollo type project being developed? Could we theoretically have had space rockets but no aeroplanes?
Just a reminder of the original question.Except that the supporting industry would probably not have existed. Look at the companies that provided the Apollo hardware - virtually every one of them had a long and distinguished background in aviation and its ancillary technologies (propulsion, guidance, navigation, materials, structures etc).
The development of rockets would have stayed at a fairly primitive level without the expertise and engineering knowledge that had built up in 50 years of aircraft research and design.
The development of rockets would have stayed at a fairly primitive level without the expertise and engineering knowledge that had built up in 50 years of aircraft research and design.
The Wright Brothers were significant as they were the first with sustained, controlled, powered flight. Others had done hops, but the Wrights were the first to have a machine capable of coordinated banked turns using aerodynamic control surfaces. As has been said, this was the result of years of experimentation and practice. One could compare the Wrights' 1903 Flyer to a unicycle. It could be flown and controlled, but only with the experience gained on their earlier gliders. The machine was unstable in both pitch and roll, so attempts to recreate the 1903 Flyer have generally failed as the modern pilots lack the subconscious reactions to fly it.
It is also worth noting that only the third flight (59 seconds) on 17 December 1903 was a genuine, sustained flight. The earlier 'flights' that day were little more than zooms up through the wind gradient with a powered glide to the ground.
Tom Crouch's 'The Bishop's Boys' is one of the definitive works on Orville and Wilbur Wright. Not only does it detail their upbringing and each experiment, it also covers their interactions with other pioneers of the time.
Aviation was the catalyst for all the research which was necessary to spawn the space programme. Materials, mathematics, fluid dynamics, computing, test methods, aviation medicine; the list is endless. Without the work of NACA, and later NASA, in the US, RAE in the UK, TsAGI in Russia, and their equivalents in other countries, mankind would not have had the knowledge and ability to put man into space.
It is also worth noting that only the third flight (59 seconds) on 17 December 1903 was a genuine, sustained flight. The earlier 'flights' that day were little more than zooms up through the wind gradient with a powered glide to the ground.
Tom Crouch's 'The Bishop's Boys' is one of the definitive works on Orville and Wilbur Wright. Not only does it detail their upbringing and each experiment, it also covers their interactions with other pioneers of the time.
Aviation was the catalyst for all the research which was necessary to spawn the space programme. Materials, mathematics, fluid dynamics, computing, test methods, aviation medicine; the list is endless. Without the work of NACA, and later NASA, in the US, RAE in the UK, TsAGI in Russia, and their equivalents in other countries, mankind would not have had the knowledge and ability to put man into space.
Edited by GliderRider on Monday 21st January 01:17
Rockets would not have progressed to the level they have achieved with knowledge gleaned from an extensive aviation industry and government funded research institutions and programmes.
As has been pointed out, we had simple rockets for almost a 1,000 years but they never progressed much beyond glorified fireworks. A Chinese rocket maker of 1200 AD would be very able to understand a Congreve rocket of 1840 or even a Breeches Buoy type rocket of the late 19th century.
He would struggle mightilly to get his head around the engineering of a Space Shuttle main engine - or the principles of hypersonic, blunt body atmospheric entry thermodynamics.
As has been pointed out, we had simple rockets for almost a 1,000 years but they never progressed much beyond glorified fireworks. A Chinese rocket maker of 1200 AD would be very able to understand a Congreve rocket of 1840 or even a Breeches Buoy type rocket of the late 19th century.
He would struggle mightilly to get his head around the engineering of a Space Shuttle main engine - or the principles of hypersonic, blunt body atmospheric entry thermodynamics.
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